Do You Think Sidious Threw The Fight?

I never thought about that before but now that you say it I think ol Palps made himself look defeated to make Anakin think Mace was in the wrong. If Palpatine had killed Mace before Anakin had gotten there Anakin probably would have challenged Palpatine to fight and have him arrested by Obi-Wan and Yoda.

 

Of course Sidious threw the fight. The dialogue shows that.

"Don't let him kill me, I can't hold it any longer. I'm too weak!" But as soon as Anakin made his move, Sidious' whole demeanor changes and the guy who was too weak two seconds earlier suddenly kills Mace while shouting "Unlimited power!"

But it's not just the dialogue. Watch the move at 1:06. Sidious has the chance to kill Mace right there. Easily. And Mace knows it, too. Look at his reaction. And at the 2:00 minute mark, when Sidious throws his lightsaber out the window instead of in the room where Anakin could see it. But especially at 2:12, where Anakin walks in. Look at the body language at that moment. Sidious is on his back, trapped against a corner and looking helpless. Mace's lightsaber is activated and he's advancing on a helpless old man. That's exactly the image Sidious wanted, and he waited until the exact moment of Anakin's appearance to stage it.

Sidoious was in control the entire time. I believe even if Mace still had his lightsaber, Sidious could have thrown him out that window with that Force lightning push while lying on his back.

 

i always read that Mace was one of the best light saber duelists ever due to some method he used that brushed the dark side, like a battle meditation or something like that, so i always assumed he defeated Sidious due to that. after reading that concise analysis, however, i have to agree: Sidious totally threw the fight. the bastard even fooled me!! SHEEEEEEEEEV!!

 

I maybe wrong, but didn't Lucas say in an interview that Mace did beat Palpatine during the first part of the battle, and only when Anakin came in did Palpatine starting playing the 'I'm too old' card?

The reason I say this is I was a member of TFN during Episode 3 and this conversation set off a firestorm among that community there. It got so heated many people left TFN for ORS, because many pro-Palpatine fans refused to believe that Mace stood toe to toe with him. I pretty sure that how its all went down at TFN, but this topic was THE #1 debate in the summer/fall of 2005.

 

in my opinion Palpatine was just playing with him.. like @Pobody's Nerfect pointed out, he could have killed him easily.. but I guess Mace surprised him with that kick

 

I remember that whole sorry-ass mess. This topic was one of the main things that had the fur flying, of course, but what I recall really driving the mass exodus even more was the fact that the mods were issuing warnings and bans right and left, often simply for simply being critical of the PT in any way. It devolved to the point where you were either a PT cheerleader, you kept your mouth completely shut, or you had the mods crawling up yer kiester with warnings or else just banning you outright.

It was a truly obnoxious scene, and I was very glad that ORS welcomed us with open arms when we'd all had enough of TFN. (RIP, ORS...)

 

Back on topic, yes. Palpatine was clearly playing with Mace, using him as bait for Anakin. All of his "Please don't kill me!" histrionics, and then he just zaps the hell outta ol' Mace once he's got blood on Anakin's hands.

 

If Anakin doesn't walk in, Mace kills Sid

 

Nice paragraph but . . . .Mace still beat'em

 

Keep in mind that Yoda himself couldn't defeat Sheev in one on one combat. Mace might have been a better lightsaber duelist than Yoda, but he certainly wasn't stronger in the Force. Look at how easily Sheev dispatches the experienced Jedi who accompanied Mace to the Chancellor's office. Why were they not more on their guard? Could Sheev have used mind control to make them unable to fight at the critical moment? Sheev knew Anakin was coming, or he would have made even quicker work of Mace. "You must choooose!" That sentence (recalling the old knight's statement to the doomed rich guy in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade) summed up the scene.

Anakin chose.... poorly.

 

Of course he threw the fight. It's made obvious with how he reacts when Anakin chops off Windu's hand. He was waiting to see what Anakin would do, and Anakin like a good little pawn did exactly what Palpatine knew he would do if steered in the right direction.

 

I disagree (see above), but I'm open minded. I posted my reasons why I think Sidious threw the fight. I'd like to see your reasons why you think Mace would have won.

Convince me and I'll send a few credits into your Cantina account.

 

Yeah I agree with you that Palpatine threw the fight, what I do wonder, however, is whether Mace did actually best Palpatine at the window (just before Anakin appears). I often wondered if Mace actually was the better man there, just Palpatine then didn't defend as he normally would have because of Anakin's arrival, or whether Palpatine even threw the fight from that point. That's the only part I'm unsure of.

 

I think we assume that people have more power than they do.

When Sheeve revealed himself to Anakin I think he had foreseen through pragmatism and through the force "what would happen." I put the last part in quotes because as Yoda says always in motion the future is. So the Emperor knows he is taking some big risks. I think that he in the end was losing the fight. If Anakin perhaps as he had foreseen did not come in he was done for. I don't think he would have allowed himself to be so damaged if it was an act. Remember Yoda was the Wise master Windu was the power by reputation. It was a gambit. I well played one but it had narrow margins.

 

What's up friend,
I doubt I am able to convince anybody Sidious "lost" the fight, but this is what I like to think.
1) Most everybody on this thread says Sidious killed Kit Fisto and company super quick, and then played with Mace Windu until Anakin got there. I know Sidious is strong but Windu is not a pushover. If the Jedi Temple had a champion LIGHTSABER fighter to go and arrest Sidious it would be Windu. Sidious barley beats Yoda later in the movie. I bring this up b/c in the Jedi Order, Yoda is #1 in the force/wisdom department but Mace Windu was the brawler. I know Shatter Point is no longer canon but even in Attack of the Clones, Anakin brags that Obi-Wan is wise like Yoda and powerful like Mace, implying that he is the standard that fighters are held to. If Sidious barley beat Yoda, is it really that inconceivable of an idea that Mace could actually beat him.
2) Another point I see a lot is that Sidious killed like 3 Jedi really quick in the fight. I think that probably had a lot more to do with Ian's shortcomings as a stuntman. I've seen some documentary were Lucas wanted the fight to be a lot of Samuel and Ian face time. It probably would have been hard to achieve this if there were 4-5 guys in the fight.
3) I think it adds to the depth of Darth Sidious' character if it is possible for him to be beat in a fight. Weakness adds depth to characters and it makes other attributes that they are strong in very special (Sidious' strategic mind).
4) I think Sidious thought he owned Anakin from the time he revealed himself as a Sith and was not expecting Anakin to talk to Mace. But only Sidious is boss enough to tempt the Chosen one, and the genius of this move pays off when Anakin bails him out at the last second.

In conclusion, I hate debating things (I always lose) but how you choose to watch this fight changes the dynamic of not only the 3rd act of ROTS but also the characters involved in it for the entire saga. Who cares if Sidious lost a fight, he took over galaxy and is above all that crap.

Peace

 

I have to agree with number 1, it is canon that Mace was one heck of a lightsaber duelist. I like to think it was a mix of both opinions in the case of Palpatine's fight with Mace. Look, as great of a Sith Lord Palpatine may be, he is clearly not a very strong duelist. The reason I argue this is the fact he simply is a better Force user. He hurls the seats in the senate like little play toys, for crying out loud, while Yoda has to intensely concentrate and throw one back. The Force abilities he has allows for him to push back Yoda, but in a room with a lightsaber master? He clearly had some issues. I know Yoda jumps around and all, but Yoda has to to strike at spots where others can simply stand and defend/attack, and Palpatine, when given time and room, is extremely mobile. As a result, Mace, with his more aggressive and forceful lightsaber combat, easily handled Papatine's more elegant, wishy washy style, limiting his movement and forcing him to play a defensive game. In The Clone Wars, Palpatine beats both Maul and Opress, but he fights very fluidly against the athletic Dathamorians and physical-minded beings, matching them for agility and flexibility, even besting them with his dangerous, open-defense, swinging not striking motions, before ultimately throwing them around like rag dolls with the use of, wait for it, FORCE POWERS. Against Mace, he is given limited space, is forced to move backwards once Mace gains control of the duel, not given enough breathign room to activate Force lightning and all, and he has to switch to strategy to survive- feign the weak helpless state that Anakin is meant to see. Once he has delayed it enough, he allows Mace to be in a position to kill him, whines of death and all, and then as Anakin strikes Mace, he uses, again, his Force Powers, now given space and no lightsabers to bother him, to throw Mace down to his presumed death. If anything, it just shows how while not technically gifted in lightsaber combat, he could use he surroundings well, even when losing, and was able to use the afraid Anakin to save him. He was a good duelist, just not technically gifted like Mace. And, sadly, Anakin lacks Palaptine's concept of dueling, as seen when he miscalculates his height needed to evade Obi-Wan's blade to continue the duel.

TL;DR
Palpatine was both weak and strong. Strong in the Force, weak in the technical aspects of lightsaber combat which Mace used to his advantage. That doesn't mean he's a bad duelist. He didn't throw the fight, but he won as a strategic duelist using his surroundings and supporters in the battle well.

 

Okay. I think it was a straight up fight which Mase won. Maybe it's simply the liability of avoiding your teammate in a duel. We have multiple cannon examples of two against one failures. Obi and Anakin vs Douku Obi and Quigon vs Maul Maul and Opress vs Obi. The individual usually has the advantage. Once it was one on one the fight changed. Yes the Emp did bait Mace in the end with the force lightning but Mace could have already have ended the fight the minute he kicked Palp in the face. If Jedi Mace and Obi would just finish people off we wouldn't have any Sith.