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Does anyone else feel that the new films ruined the ending of ROTJ?

Discussion in 'Original Trilogy' started by VOODOO, Jan 8, 2018.

  1. Darth Derringer

    Darth Derringer Rebel General

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    This takes the discussion all the way back to the OP: It lessens the dramatic conclusion to the OT because we learn later on that the Emperor wasn't defeated afterall.
    Soooooooooo....using your rationale, Marvel should bring back Thanos again rather than impress the audience with a new villain like Kang?

    It's no secret that JJ brought back Palpatine because he was in a storytelling pickle because Johnson killed off the trilogy's bad guy early. We can play mental gymnastics to explain it storywise. But the truth of the matter is that when you've got to come up with a new Big Baddie for the concluding film of your trilogy, bring back the Emperor made some sense -- although it's yet another example of SW creatives recycling the same old same old.
     
  2. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Wouldn’t “the dramatic conclusion to the OT” be lessened regardless by the sheer fact that it’s no longer the actual conclusion anymore?

    Palpatine’s defeat rests in his failure to achieve any of his goals. He wanted to crush the Rebellion, enforce absolute authority, and corrupt Luke Skywalker. He didn’t do any of those things because of the efforts of our heroes. He failed. He was defeated.

    What the Rebellion wanted was to save the galaxy, not kill the Emperor. It did that. What Luke wanted was to save his father, not kill the Emperor. He did that. Good still triumphed over evil. That's still a victory. That still matters.
     
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  3. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    That's a loaded question IMO, particularly by the time the ST was announced.
    By that time, we've had decades upon decades of extra stories, some of which lessened the OT's conclusion, others which benefited from it. We also had enough time for most of the bad to sink into obscurity and a lot of the good to stay relevant. But at the end of the day, none of this was the big screen, and all of it was subject to retcons and levels of continuity.

    Then, the PT complicates things even farther, because the PT's story recontextualizes the ending of the OT into something else. No longer is it just Good vs Evli or redemptive love saves the day, it's now a story with a mythological element. And THEN GL canonizes aspects of it to further reinforce the mythological aspect of the story, parts of it directly opposing what the extra stories meant and have done.

    And then the PT gets a massive resurgence right around the time TFA and R1 come out, retroactively changing people's minds and feelings about the PT and thus how it relates to the OT.

    You bring of all of that history and those feelings into the ST with you, and it creates a mess of emotions and expectations and thoughts. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the "dramatic conclusion of the OT" had already gone through periods of being lesser and greater for decades by that point, but nothing that couldn't be reversed if the writers or fans didn't like it. But now we have something canon, something set in stone, and that changes things and feelings. It's now "real," (as if the other stories weren't) and I think that officiality lessens the conclusion. Well, that and the fact that people like originality* and things that feel like things they like, as you mentioned earlier.

    It's like the OT was a fire behind a glass. It's safe there, but you're safe from it. You can use candles (EU material) if you want, but the main source of light in the room will be the fire, and its inspiration on other sources of light can't be understated. But now someone has broken the glass and wants to expand the fireplace, and it feels as if the house may burn down.

    ...and now I'm losing my own point, so I'll step back out.


    That's part of the problem with bringing back a villain like Palpatine (and part of the problem I have with Rey and Kylo's relationship in TROS). Palpatine was so thoroughly defeated by the end of ROTJ that he's no longer a credible threat, at least not to me. We the audience don't fear him and the characters don't really react to him. So he's just there to move things along and to be a physical manifestation of an allegory, but never a character or a threat.

    That's probably why people liked Snoke and were upset that he was killed off. You've got mystery, a villain that feels like Palpatine but seems to have learned Palpatine's lessons, and someone who even in the face of defeat, doesn't seem defeated. And then Kylo offs him without any of that coming into fruition.


    *Originality combined with nostalgic feelings and not at the expense of the past experiences, to be more accurate. That's part of the reason things like My Hero Academia has historically been regarded as Naruto's sequel over the actual sequel Boruto, or why The Dragon Prince is sometimes liked more by fans of Avatar: the Last Airbender over the actual sequel The Legend of Korra. Boruto and Korra felt like and made decisions that influenced how people feel and perceive their predecessors, where as MHA and TDP can be just as original and get away with it.
    Miles Morales as Spider-Man is another semi-decent example. They killed off Ultimate Spider-Man to make way for Miles Morales and that made waves to big that people who don't read comics were talking about how they were killing off Peter Parker for a new Spider-Man; but they never actually killed off the mainline 616 Spider-Man. People didn't have to sacrifice one to get the other. In roughly 2018, Marvel tried a new diversity initiative for their comics and replaced nearly all of their frontrunners with women and POC versions of the characters. Iron Man was now Riri Williams, Wolverine was now Laura Kinney (although she had been in that role for years by that point), Thor was now Jane Foster (the comic run that Thor: Love & Thunder is partially based off of), and so forth. These weren't bad changes, but the initiative failed because they sidelined old favorites instead of making room for both.
     
  4. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    From a certain point of view, the end of ROTJ is diminished by ANY further episodes even if Palpatine isn't involved. If the climax to the saga is about overcoming a presumably greater threat than the Devil. But the saga continues therefore you have to accept that the devil wasn't definitively beaten. He was beaten. (The alliance was not wiped out, Luke did not turn and he was not destroyed). Just not conclusively. Because that task is one for the next generation.

    The ease of Palpatine's dethronement makes it easier for me not to get upset that he could still influence events decades later. It was a thrilling end to a movie and a trilogy in 1983. The significance of Palpatine being conclusively vanquished never really impacted me then. Thanks to him being a marginal character for most of that trilogy. And the three prequels didn't really enhance my appreciation of there supposedly being no more Palpatine ever at the end of the "complete" saga in 2005.
     
  5. Sheddai_Lightkeeper

    Sheddai_Lightkeeper Rebel General

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    That's exactly it. Tyrants are mortal, but the psychology that produces them is not. Every a-hole in history repeats the same pattern that comes from inside of all of us.
     
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