Finn - Don't listen to the Hyperbole

He is well-trained in hand weapon combat in the supplementary materials like Before The Awakening.

 

But you can. People throughout history have done it. Is it Force sensitivity that makes Han Solo go from bad boy smuggler to rebel hero? Or Force sensitivity that makes jar jar go from bumbling idiot to general to substitute senator of an entire planet? Not everything major is caused by Force sensitivity. If it was, being Force sensitive wouldn't be all that special and there'd be enough Force users to fill the ranks of the army rather than having stormtroopers.

Finn is the next Han Solo to some extent. Han started out as a cadet and saw something terrible in Wookie enslavement, freed one, and left the Empire to be a smuggler. He was gonna leave the rebellion multiple times but ended up changing his mind to help Luke, and we saw Finn do that as well. You don't need the Force to have free will and free thinking, and you don't need the Force to break brainwashing.

1) He may be brainwashed to be a stormtrooper from birth, but this is his first taste of real combat, and we really don't know how long they've been using that method or how it's worked out thus far. From what Kylo said to Hux, we can assume there have been plenty of defections, otherwise Kylo wouldn't have even thought of clones being better options.

2) Sith can sense emotions, and Finn's emotions when he got his helmet bloodied during the massacre of a village in his first taste of actual combat were probably pretty strong and unique compared to the others acting like it's business as usual. Kylo Ren can also read minds pretty well, so for all we know he caught a stray thought or found the number in Finn's subconscious, since at that point that's the only identity Finn has. Also, if Finn were Force sensitive Kylo would have known at first contact and either eliminated him or had him join the Knights of Ren. Even if he didn't know then, if he was sensing the Force in Finn he'd have killed him then or made him a knight. There's no way he'd just allow a Force sensitive person whose doubts in being a stormtrooper he sensed continue on being a stormtrooper.

3) Kylo's training isn't complete, and we can clearly see the stormtroopers are pretty good with melee weapons when Finn gets beat down by one. He's not fighting Luke or Vader or Mace Windu here, he's fighting Kylo Ren. Kylo is not an expert by any means. You also ignore the fact that Kylo just got shot in the stomach by a bowcaster, the only thing I've seen survive that. Anyone who can handle a sword or something similar can use a lightsaber about as good as Finn did, which is to say that they can avoid killing themselves and last a few minutes in a fight against an already injured opponent. That doesn't make him Force sensitive. As a stormtrooper he probably could sword fight at least some.

Exactly. Free will and changes of heart aren't only reserved for Force sensitives.

Mind controlled? By what? Brainwashing is very different from mind control. I don't recall them saying anything about mind control, and brainwashing is mostly implied, but not explicitly stated.

If he sensed the Force in Finn at that moment he would have killed him on the spot. Finn just witnessed a massacre that he refused to take part in. If Kylo couldn't pick that up, he's not much of a Skywalker.

I'm pretty sure he just saw the laser beams flying through space like everybody else did. They were pretty big. He also knew what the goal of this super weapon was just like the other First Order people. When Obi Wan sensed Alderaan being blown up there wasn't audio. I think you're overlapping the cut scene of the planet and people seeing the laser blasts in the sky in your memory, or wrongly presuming that the cutscene was Finn having a vision.

 

Was Jar Jar's foolishness caused by years of brainwashing from birth? What about Han's selfishness? Not only that but Jar Jar is STILL an idiot, and Han reverted back to his old ways. Why? Because their personalities weren't the result of a concerted effort by a large organization to manipulate their thinking at birth magically erased by the plot with a bloody finger to the head. That's why. Finn, was conditioned for so long that his sudden change would make no sense without the force.

And "force sensitivity" isn't special. It's something that is common enough for there to be institutions central to governing composed by these people. And even if it was rare, THERE ARE MILLIONS OF SYSTEMS IN THE GALAXY; however, I'm not being stupid and saying that every character change is caused by the force, but I AM saying that the force is the only thing that could break years of mental conditioning from scientifically sophisticated institution with a great wealth of resources and a brainwashing program that has no significant history of failure.

Of course you would in this case. It makes no sense to be taught to think one thing for years without contradiction and to go along with it unquestioningly for years; then all of a sudden reject the mind control regimen that works well enough to replace the need for Clones, as Hux implies, with just blood getting on your helmet.

Mind control is any technique that exists to CONTROL THINKING. Brainwashing is using behavioral and other psychological conditioning to control thinking. So IT IS mind control. And brainwashing isn't just implied. Hux and Finn say explicitly that STs are "PROGRAMMED AT BIRTH." Programmed. . .like computers. That's how pernicious it is.

 

Actually, if you let the sequence of the scenes tell you their story, then it's not just Finn witnessing the beam flying through space. I'm also not overlapping the cut scenes, either, I'm going by how they're sequenced in the movie. Sets of Scenes 1 - Star Killer's fired, beam starts travelling through space, passes Kylo Ren on the ship, continues through space to the Hosnian system. Sets of Scenes 2 - Finn is loading the ship he is hitching a ride to the Outer Rim on, he hears screams and explosions. He slows down and turns around. Two reasons why this is not something he is hearing on Takodana or from Maz's castle. Reason 1 - the aliens he was working with to load this ship, they just go right in as if they do not hear anything. Reason 2 - the ship appears to be in a landing area away from the castle. Remember when Han and everyone landed, they weren't near the castle. They landed on the coast, possibly a mile or more in walking distance to the castle. Sets of Scenes 3 - Shows what Finn is looking at, it's the beam still traveling through space. Remember, the scenes prior to this had him hearing the sounds and nobody around him paid attention and reacted to those sounds, only Finn. Also, in these sets of scenes the beam finally hits the planets and in those scenes, you hear the same sounds Finn heard back on Takodana. Finally, after this, Han and a handful of people are shown pouring out of the castle, looking up at the sky as if they just noticed the light in the sky at that moment. Also, when they come out, it's after the planets in the Hosnian system have been destroyed. Not during. That's when Finn runs up to them and tells them exactly who attacked who and where.

So, in my opinion, the only way out of that is to chalk it up to potentially bad/forgotten editing. Because the way it's put together indicates Finn heard something that was not heard by everyone else. Because when the Hosnian system is still on fire, planets are still exploding, Han and the people who just poured out of the castle don't hear anything. The script even indicates they are afraid of the fire in the sky, not the sounds.

Edited to add: Addressing the rest of your counter point. Finn didn't know about the Star Killer firing or who they would fire it at. He just knew about it. Hux, Snoke and Kylo Ren made that plan while Finn was off trying to escape to the Outer Rim. Sure he could probably deduce, but it's iffy either way and whether he deduced or not it doesn't negate any of what I said above about how the sequence of the scenes played out.

Also, so you don't think I'm overlapping or improperly remembering the sequences of the scenes. I did a scene by scene infographic here: Defending Finn Article. I don't see how paying attention to the sequence of the scenes and what that tells me in the story is presumptuous. I think it's too presumptuous of everyone who immediately denies the possibility Finn is Force Sensitive. It puts erroneous bias glasses "there can be only one force user" on when it comes to scenes like this and the action-oriented storytelling around Finn's character.

 

Firstly, I did use the words "potential" and "hint" enough to imply the possibility not an absolute positivity.

Secondly, I did say that although breaking imprinting has happened that it was noted that it was extremely unusual for a trooper to go from 0-100 defection after only one anomally in behaviour. Says it right there in the script.

Thirdly, you might remember that a certain fully trained and powerful Sith Lord could not detect any "force sensitivity" whatsoever in Princess Leia despite her being potentially as powerful as Luke would become and more powerful than him DESPITE being in very close proximity to her for lengthy amounts of time (oh, and he couldn't even pick up that she was his blood relation either BTW). So don't give me that "Ren would of detected it and killed him outright" stuff. Canon proves that is utter crap.

Fourthly... if your claim was true, then every stormtrooper would have a Lightsaber in their belt. It's not like the First Order is short of cash, and they would be far more useful in numerous ways than a "electric club" thingy. And it's not like they have to worry about losing them and arming jedi considering they are borderline extinct.

Fifthly... Kylo Ren was injured yes, but he fought pretty well against Rey after his fight. Like I said, even a piss weak Sith, even injured who even got a F- in lightsaber technique in Lukes Jedi school should have been able to dispatch some "loser nobody" swinging around a lightsaber in a heartbeat. He didn't struggle because his injury was impeding him, he struggled because he couldn't predict his movements even using the force.

Anyway, like I said before. They are "possible hints" to a force potential... not a definite.

 

I was going to create a thread about Finn's awakening, but found this first.

I apologize ahead of time for not reading the entire thread, I've seen some good arguments from both sides.

Is Finn force sensitive?

I don't think so. I believe the marketing of the film from the first part of the first teaser was meant to make us believe Finn might be the Luke Skywalker of TFA. But the film overall backs away from this possibility very clearly to reveal it was Rey who would fulfill the Luke role.

HOWEVER, the Force was somehow behind Finn's "awakening." After seeing the film for the 3rd time there is something very peculiar about the way the fallen Stormtrooper reaches out to stroke Finn's helmet. And Finn's body language upon having 3 fingers of blood wiped onto his helmet is oddly similar to the 007 Stormtrooper who finally succumbs to Rey's Jedi mind trick.

Continuity wise, what IS the awakening Snoke and Kylo sense? It doesn't seem to have anything to do with Rey.

What magical force driven moment occurred within the film prior to that scene?

Did Luke momentarily reach out through the Force in the moment Finn awakens to show him the dark heart of the First Order?

Finn IS the stolen plans to Starkiller base. Was it the Force that was behind his awakening?

 

There are plenty of hints regarding Finn's force sensitivity. I do agree the marketing campaign pulled a sort of "Okey-doke" on everyone, but I believe it was done for a different reason. I believe it was done to set this up as Finn's origin story as a character clawing his way to notoriety. From the fans perspective, they came out for some strange reason only thinking about Rey, ignoring all of the things Finn did to establish the victories in the movie. Most of all, and I try to point this out as much as I can, the force sense he displayed on Takodana. I already addressed how this cannot be explained away with all of the usual counter explanations in an earlier post.

 

He literally says "I made a choice" as in he went to fight for the first time and thought it was messed up. There's no indication that the mind control is so effective that he swapped sides because of the Force, and if you watch the movie you can't even hear any surprise from them about it. Phasma says he had his first incident in a pretty nonchalant way. You seem to think it's impossible for people to break brainwashing (which is what they used, not mind control) for a normal person, which is just not true.

Also, Force sensitivity isn't special? Do you realize how many trillions of sentient beings there are in the galaxy? Even when the Jedi were going around grabbing up Force using kids to train them their numbers were only in the thousands or maybe millions. We're talking fractions of a percent here. At the very least Snoke would know the difference and depending on who he is would even know how to test midichlorians, which would tell them if kids can use the Force.

Then how didn't Finn dispatch the riot control trooper with such ease? Shouldn't he be able to predict his movements due to the Force like Kylo should have? Also, Leia wasn't using the Force, so of course Vader didn't sense her (they also didn't establish that she even had it yet so that's a pretty poor example, but whatever). If the Force was acting through Finn like you guys are saying, Kylo would have sensed it. He could sense Han Solo and he doesn't even have Force sensitivity.

Having just seen it again earlier I'm pretty sure the cries and screams are coming from the people who can see outside the castle. Finn turns around to look back one more time and there's crying and he looks up to see big red laser beams. I'm sure he, like all the other FO people, knew that Snoke and Hux and everybody hates the Republic and senate, and they also obviously know only their base can fire a huge laser beam all the way across space. I grant you that it's difficult to tell at that moment where the noise is coming from, but I highly doubt they'd have us hear it prematurely if Finn was sensing it with the Force. I also think they'd have made it more obvious that he has it if they were gonna make him a Force user. Your point on that scene does leave the possibility there, but the cries are far likelier coming from people at Maz's than Finn sensing them, and his possible sensing of them would be the only concrete evidence if confirmed. Like I said, if he sensed it they wouldn't have had us hear the cries too. My guess is that they'd have Finn inside the castle tell Han that he thinks the weapon fired then everyone goes outside and sees the blasts if he were Force sensitive. There's no reason to show him with the saber fighting only to make it seem like he doesn't even have the Force save this one hint only to come back in the next movie and say he actually does have it.

There's no immediate denial, and nobody is saying only one Force user can be around. They already cast a guy to play another Jedi for VIII, clearly Maz had some knowledge of the Force as did MVS's character. There's also Snoke, Kylo, Luke, and Leia. Finn just isn't a Force user most likely.

 

Forgive the sarcasm in it, but I put this little infographic together in an article I wrote covering the sequence of the scenes:

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Well of course nobody's right around him while he's going up a ship that belongs to two aliens. Do you expect random people to hang around their ship like it's all peachy? You're also asking me to assume that absolutely no one else was outside to see anything (how else would anyone know to come out and look? They knew it happened before Finn came up to them) and assuming that random smugglers would care about any of this happening even though when you see everyone out talking about it they're still loading their ship to leave. It's odd to me that you'd act so condescending in your slideshow about a bunch of assumptions based on your desire to have Finn be Force sensitive. If that's what they wanted for him it would've been a lot more obvious to us, because what's the point in making him seem not Force sensitive only to reveal that he is Force sensitive in the next movie? That's just poor writing.

 

The point in pointing that out is that it's a double whammy, also, I may edit this and put the actual screen shot in where the Falcon, and presumably all the other ships land. It's nowhere near the castle and that was the point.

I'm not asking you to assume that, but I'm going off what the sequence of the scenes showed me. When it pans to them, it looks like they are just pouring out of the castle. They weren't out there, or so it seems when Finn was looking at the sky. Also, I notice nobody ever brings up the two aliens who just go right into the ship and never come back out as if they heard anything. Yet, so many people want to say Finn must've heard the screams from the people at the castle. Yet when you pan to the people at the castle they're barely making any noise.

I did warn you ahead of time about the sarcasm. Sorry that I felt the need to be a little sarcastic, but when I watched those sequence of events several times over, I couldn't understand why people go out of their way to explain it away when the scene is pretty much telling a story to you about Finn. And many do it in such a sarcastic way a swell. Two wrongs don't make a right, I know, but It seems some people just don't want it to be so. Just like some people, myself included, would rather it be so.

It's not necessarily poor writing. Some stories do not spell everything out for you until later. This is the first movie, maybe they wanted to hint at his potential and then build up to it for the later episodes. It's really up to them and in their ballpark. I also find it funny that all the same subtle hints used to qualify people like Rey, Luke, Anakin, etc. prior to someone saying they're force sensitive and them using the Force are the same things Finn did other than pilot. And this biggest hint is quickly hand waved away by people who for whatever reason just don't want or like the idea of two potential Jedi in the new chapters of the franchise.

At the end of the day we'll have to agree to disagree, but from what I've seen, read in the scripts, etc. I think that was a pretty evidential visualization of Finn's potential force-sensitivity.

 

Brainwashing is a form of mind control. You got to understand. We're talking about people who are "PROGRAMMED" throughout their formative years to think a certain way, not just a bunch of kids taught something as if in a school curriculum. This implies that the FO used techniques in the realm of the psychological and maybe even chemical.

If you google "brainwashing" it even leads to the term mind control.

Secondly, the fact that they looked up Finn's record indicated surprise. Just because Phasma didn't break her characteristic flat affect doesn't change the explicit fact that what Finn did was unprecedented. "My soldiers are programmed from birth," says Hux. Why brag about this if a ST breaking programming was just so ho-hum event? And if what Finn did was just some personal choice informed by his character, why aren't there way more just like him?

The fact that Finn could "make a choice" is what is unusual here. Not what he ended up choosing.The sole purpose of their conditioning was to remove the possibility of choice, and there's no reason Finn shouldn't be effected by the Hux's Conditioning Program. So this idea that Finn's statement about "making a choice" somehow helps your argument is misguided. It actually doesn't change a thing.

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When I say FS isn't special, I mean in relation to the numbers of people in the galaxy. The Jedi were able to maintain large lists of force sensitive children, implied not to be exhaustive. In a sample size that's super small FS may be "special" but the people with enough power to draw from the entire galaxy's population aren't limited to such small sample size, are they? And it makes some sense that at least ONE FO ST would have this gift. They are pulling just as widely from the galaxy to increase their ranks as the Jedi did. I'd go so far to say their recruitment techniques mirror the Jedi, and are probably even less selective. I'm sure the jedi didn't kidnap children from their parents and homes to teach them about the Force. The FO has no qualms with doing that to teach them about their ways, though. It stands to reason that in an army that size, SOMEONE had to be FS. And I doubt they'd test for it because the ST is going to ignore midichlorians as much as they'd ignore Jar Jar.

Secondly, there's another type of "special" in this argument. The "special" of Plot. Is being special in the plot important enough in the story to maintain this unrealistic notion that Snoke can be contested against with a single Jedi apprentice when he has access to at least 7 Knights of Ren? The "lone Jedi" trope is just some superficial nonsense that has nothing to do with the needs of the story.

 

Beings strong with the Force can detect the fear and emotion in non-sensitive beings, that's been evident since the beginning

 

Vader couldn't sense Leia when he was spending all that time interrogating her.

 

i have swung for and against Finn being Force sensitive during this thread.. so big pat on the back of everyone posting here as you are putting up great arguments!

i'm opting for Finn being FS.. it's a gut instinct to be perfectly honest, and i think he looked great holding a lightsaber and hope he gets to do so again.

 

Finn is Mace Windu's Nephew's friend's brother's roommate.

 

Father's, Brother's, Nephew's, Cousin's, former roommate*