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Has anyone ever notice this in ESB?

Discussion in 'Original Trilogy' started by Bluemilk, Oct 19, 2017.

  1. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Rebel Official

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    ^ Yes, George Lucas was among the few (in the filmmaking community) that had the courage to openly admit, that he used Joseph Campbell's Monomyth archetypes as a blueprint for his story (the only other one I'm aware of was Richard Adams, author of Watership Down). In one of the video programs at a banquet in Campbell's honor George Lucas stood up and praised Joe Campbell as "his Yoda".
     
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  2. ObiWanKnowsMe

    ObiWanKnowsMe Rebel Official

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    Well I never really thought about it. Hmmm
     
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  3. Zornath

    Zornath Rebel Commander

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    I always got a chuckle from that when I was a kid. I remember at one point saying "Man, Luke just can't get a break."
     
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  4. Messi

    Messi Force Sensitive

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    Upside down in Hoth (1st act).
    Upside down in Dagobah (2nd act).
    Upside down in Bespin (3rd act).

    Great. I never made that conection.
     
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  5. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    I guess it could've been foreshadowing of Luke's struggle with the dark side/ the ability to see an issue from two sides?
     
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  6. Jayson

    Jayson Rebel Official

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    Yes.
    Watch the film again more closely, now that you noticed.
    The entire film is symmetrical on purpose.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  7. Jayson

    Jayson Rebel Official

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    This fellow, Robert Lockard, over at Dejareviewer, did a really nice job writing up the symmetry of ESB.

    "The Chiasmus
    Here are the film’s events, listed in their chiasmic form. Each letter corresponds to the same one on the opposite side of the chiasmus:"

    (I, Jayson, that is, reformatted his list to make it easier to look at all in one glance)

    [​IMG]

    Then he goes on in further detail (you can read that at his website), but he also gives reference shots for each of these.
    The thing to keep in mind when scrolling through these reference shots is that the right side goes backwards while the left goes forwards because ESB's second half is the first half in reverse.

    A. Sending Out Probes
    [​IMG]

    B. Luke Skywalker on the Air
    [​IMG]

    C. Safely Back Among Rebels
    [​IMG]

    D. Helping Chewbacca Repair the Millennium Falcon
    [​IMG]

    E. Looking for Luke
    [​IMG]

    F. Luke Uses the Force to Get Free
    [​IMG]

    G. Luke Falls
    [​IMG]

    H. Losing a Limb to a Lightsaber
    [​IMG]

    I. Leia Is Too Late
    [​IMG]

    J. Obi-Wan and Vader Appear to Luke
    [​IMG]

    K. Han Finds Luke and Vice-versa
    [​IMG]

    L. Luke in a Tauntaun and Han in Carbon Freeze
    [​IMG]

    M. Flying to the Rescue
    [​IMG]

    N. Comforting the Survivor of a Terrible Ordeal
    [​IMG]

    O. Imperial Ambush
    [​IMG]

    P. Luke Says Farewell to Han and Yoda
    [​IMG]

    Q. Alerted to Danger vs. Failing to See the Danger
    [​IMG]

    R. Vader Kills Two of His Subordinates
    [​IMG]

    S. Luke Takes Down Two Large Vehicles
    [​IMG]

    (what he means here is that Luke crashes the snow speeder and the x-wing, then takes down the AT-ST, and causes the x-wing to sing further when he fails to lift it)

    T. No Light Speed, Evading Asteroids, and Hiding Out
    [​IMG]

    U. Luke Underestimates Dangers
    [​IMG]

    V. Escaping a Monster’s Stomach

    [​IMG]

    W. Finding Strange Creatures While the Droids Stand Guard
    [​IMG]

    X. Han’s and Leia’s Interruptions
    [​IMG]

    Y. Star Destroyers Dealing with Asteroids
    [​IMG]

    Z. Skywalkers Talk to Their Masters
    [​IMG]

    You can read his full article here:
    https://dejareviewer.com/2014/05/20...strikes-back-is-a-perfectly-symmetrical-film/

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #27 Jayson, May 12, 2018
    Last edited: May 12, 2018
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  8. TheFettMan

    TheFettMan Rebel General

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    Luke is also outdoors, seriously wounded & with no blue (blue) ;)...
     
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  9. Bandini

    Bandini Force Sensitive

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    She made a whole thread about grammar, dude, that's her thing.



    Just kidding and nice observation.
     
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  10. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Rebel Official

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    Yep. Just another reason I so love the OT. The ring structure, the chiasmus in Empire... It is just fantastic.

     
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  11. Jayson

    Jayson Rebel Official

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    What's fun is that not only does AOTC follow the mirror pattern of ESB, but in reverse and more metaphorical than literal runtime like ESB, TLJ also follows this mirror image pattern of the middle films.
    TLJ, however, gets metaphorical - mixing a bit of AOTC and ESB together.
    It uses moral character arcs as the mirror - every character in TLJ faces the same choices twice and the opposites occur in each from the first time they had the choice.

    :)

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  12. Porco Azzurro

    Porco Azzurro Force Sensitive

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    "it's a much more intricately made clock than most people would imagine" - George Lucas

    *nods*
     
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  13. Jayson

    Jayson Rebel Official

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    Star Wars fan trying to reverse engineer Lucas' Chiasmus.
    UaLpJOK.jpg.png

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  14. Kato Sai

    Kato Sai Force Attuned

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    Great observation! On an even more symbolic level is echoed that Luke’s whole world is flipped upside down by Vader’s revelation. In fact, ironically Vader telling Luke he is his father robbed Luke of being able to destroy Vader with his hatred, because Luke hated Vader for killing his father, but upon the revelation that Vader is his father, Luke’s hatred turns to love and a desire to save him (as seen in ROTJ). Vader’s biggest mistake was to reveal his true idenity to Luke, for it secured Luke would not turn to the Dark Side by “striking him down with all his hate.”

    Proof that love and personal attatchments actually can stop a fall to the Dark Side as much as be s cause of the fall (Padme and Anakin, ROTS).
     
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  15. The Birdwatcher

    The Birdwatcher Clone Commander

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    And... that didn't happen in ESB and in ROTJ. Only if you accept the retcons that the PT brought to the OT.
    I guess I'll use the book again.

    THE STORY OF ANAKIN-p. 70- Story Conference for Revenge of the Sith- July 13 to 17, 1981
    Lucas: Well, anyway, Luke's father gets subverted by the Emperor. He gets a little weird at home and his wife begins to figure out that things are going wrong and she confides in Ben, who is his mentor. On his missions through the galaxies, Anakin has been going off doing his Jedi thing and a lot of Jedi have been getting killed--- and it's because they turn his back on him and he cuts them down. The president is turning into an Emperor and Luke's mother suspects that something has happened to her husband.

    There's no indication that Anakin turned to the dark side in the original subtext for the OT because of love.

    Rinzler, J. W. The Making of Star Wars: Return of the Jedi. Del Rey, 2013.
     
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  16. Kato Sai

    Kato Sai Force Attuned

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    The Prequels are canon my friend and Anakin became a Sith Lord to save Padme from premature death in child birth: “love can’t save you Padme, only my new powers can do that.” (Darth Vader, ROTS). Certainly it wasn’t the only motive, deep down Anakin was simmering over distrust, disillusionment, and his double life of the Jedi Order. But his desire to save Padme was primary. He wanted to prevent a repeat, he lost his mother Shimi and wasn’t going to lose his wife:

    “I wasn't strong enough to save you mom. I wasn't strong enough, but I promise I won't fail again” (Anakin, TATOOINE, Episode II: Attack of the Clones)
     
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  17. The Birdwatcher

    The Birdwatcher Clone Commander

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    The prequels are canon now. They weren't canon in 1981. So, I feel that there's a disparity.
     
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  18. Kato Sai

    Kato Sai Force Attuned

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    So you would prefer the 1981 canon?

    I myself prefer EU before it became Legends and not canon.

    I was personally suprised when I saw ROTS that Anakin fell to the Dark Side over love. I had hoped he would fall more gradually and it would be more like Revan’s fall, that Anakin embraces unorthodox views until a severence from the Jedi.
     
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  19. The Birdwatcher

    The Birdwatcher Clone Commander

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    The EU has some highlights, but everytime that I pick up a new book from the EU, whether it's Sacrifice or Invincible, there's some layer of cringe embedded in it that prevents it from really being a good book. I guess I liked Revenge of the Sith from Matthew Stover; that's probably the best fictional SW book that I've read.

    And I'm fine with the EU being finished. I like that they at least wrapped up Jacen Solo's character before it ended.

    Yes, I would prefer the 1981 canon, anything that prevents retcons as much as possible, which SW has been subjugated towards at an increasing rate, especially with the PT. Don't get me wrong; I still watched the PT. I don't really dislike the PT, but from a writing perspective, it could be better and number of choices in the PT contrast what the OT and what Lucas has said in the story conference in 1981 for Revenge of the Jedi.

    As far as I know, Vader was seduced by the dark side in ANH. Then, that reason was retconned in favor of saying that it was the emperor that deceived Vader and seduced him with the dark side, which conveniently allocated blame to the emperor for Vader's fall. But I would assume that Vader was actually seduced on his own in ANH at least, and since it's not addressed, was still seduced by the dark side on his own in ESB, although it's possible that the story was altered enough at this point.

    Anakin's fall was supposed to be gradual from the 1981 story conference, since he betrayed and killed the Jedi one at a time. And no one knew, besides his wife and maybe Obi-wan, that he was falling to the dark side.
     
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  20. Pobody's Nerfect

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    Star Wars is full of these kinds of rhymes.

    Luke's story began with a cry for help from a holographic Princess. It ended with a holographic Luke helping her.

    A New Hope began with a huge Imperial ship swallowing a Rebel ship. It ended with the Death Star swallowing a Rebel torpedo.

    We watch Anakin's surprise decision to use violence against Master Windu to save Palpatine, and how that decision took him to the Dark Side, then see him suddenly decide to use violence against Palpatine to save Luke, and how that decision redeemed him.
     
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