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How does Rey know her parents are on Ochi’s ship?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Old Jedi, May 23, 2020.

  1. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    "Through the Force, things you will see. Other places. The future... the past. Old friends long gone." - Yoda

    This is exactly what happened in TFA with Rey. She saw the past:
    - the past of Luke's Skywalker lightsaber
    - her past

    then she saw the future:
    - facing Kylo in a snowy forest


    So yeah, I think we can take this scene quite literally.
     
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  2. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

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    TLJ and TRoS end up demonstrating that what we saw Rey experience when she touched the blue Skywalker lightsaber in TFA was not in fact the literal past or future, especially when it came to her own childhood.
     
  3. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    *waves hands up*
    lol Whatever, look. The point is that the idea was to be a confusing mix of memory and Force generated vision that caused alarmed confusion.

    Job done.
    Clearly, whatever pedantics we want to throw at it, it's a confusing bit of footage, and regardless of your dislike of the term, hey...you got it - it's not strictly literal footage, in the grand spirit of Star Wars visions.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
  4. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    How?

    - TFA showed she was abandoned by her parents by leaving in a ship
    - in TLJ Kylo told Rey that her parents left her on Jakku
    - in TROS we see the exact same scene of young Rey (TFA) screaming out for her parents + some new scenes of her being left behind
     
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  5. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

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    I do not believe that anything we saw Rey see in TFA regarding her abandonment was an actual memory.
     
  6. RockyRoadHux

    RockyRoadHux Ginger General

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    okay. But you don't have any proof for it not being an actual memory so there is that.
     
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  7. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    You can feel that way. That's...why they, internally, called it a Forceback, and not a Flashback.

    Because they wanted a built-in design of confusion and uncertainty about what's being seen and its context.

    The bit about Rey's parents and the ship in TFA's Forceback is a matter of a few seconds. The rest is all over the place as to whether it's something real or envisioned, so it's hard to pin down what meaning is to be taken in a sense of literal and figurative out of the TFA Forceback.
    Some things appear to have been actual events in time, such as Luke and R2, which show up in Kylo's flashback in TLJ, while others don't seem to be things that happen exactly - Kylo killing the uncertain figure right before Rey sees herself as a child is unclear what that is showing because the figure looks similar to those of Mustafar, but Kylo doesn't look similar as he does in the opening of TROS, and there's really no telling what that is allegedly showing based on what we see on the screen.

    Furthermore, ANY Force-infused vision where any voice from the dark side shows up should always be taken with a big grain of salt for whether it is to be trusted as entirely real, a twisted slant of reality, or just plane bulls###, and Palpsy's voice pops up right in the middle of the TFA Forceback vision.

    That said, some stuff is confirmed outside of it, so we do know that at the very least, some rough edges are at least relatives of reality.
    Again, Luke and R2 is something we see again in Kylo's flashback, so we know that part was accurate. We know that Kylo and Rey face off in a winter-looking woods on Ilum because that's the big fight they have in TFA.
    And we know that Rey's parents did leave her with Unkar (or at the very least if we want to be pedantic about the visuals, someone with the same hands as Unkar), that Ochi did indeed have a ship like the one she saw, and that Ochi did indeed take her parents on his ship.

    We know they were on that ship because of conversations in TROS that happen, and we know that her parents intentionally left her in the care of Unkar (or someone with Unkar's style of hands, or someone who had chopped off Unkar's hand and used it just for that bit so we could think it Unkar when really it someone like Frank Oz who was actually holding Rey's arm...OK....Unkar), and then we know that Rey as a child associated her parents with being on that ship because those events are directly in TROS when Rey has an actual flashback when confronting Kylo.

    That's kind of the whole point of having a flashback happen in TROS.
    It's to clear out what is and isn't just Forceback vision murkiness.

    If all we had was just the Forceback, then we'd have about a second or two of footage to work off of and that wouldn't be very compelling for anything, but they did circle back around and refrain certain parts of the TFA Forceback.

    Rey's parent's, her being left on Jakku, and Ochi are a pretty sizable part that was circled back around upon.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  8. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    I can’t believe I’m weighing in on this ‘Forceback’ definition dealie, but it’s probably worth mentioning.

    That sequence underwent a lot of changes during script development. Originally it was structured like a traditional flashback with the perspective being from the lightsaber. We were going to see its full journey from Bespin to Takodana. It was abandoned though because it distracted from Rey. The scene became more abstract and dreamlike in order to represent how incomprehensible, disorienting, and overwhelming the experience was for her - discordant glimpses of the past and future.

    It’s essentially just a Force vision, but ‘Forceback’ is what JJ decided to call its unique visual framing. Makes it a more quantifiable value on the shooting schedule. “What are we shooting today? Oh, the ‘Forceback’ scene. Cool.”

    On topic: The logistics of Rey seeing the ship aren’t the point of that piece of the montage though. It’s to marry with her sense of abandonment after watching Finn leave her - just like her family had left her. It’s the emotion of the scene that matters, not the precise canonical placement of subjects . . . . . . . I think. I mean, what the hell do I know?
     
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  9. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    I think that sums up Star Wars in a nutshell as a whole.

    Recently I saw a whole conversation over the pragmatic validity of AT-AT's and all I could really think was..."You're kind of missing the whole point...."

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  10. Porco Azzurro

    Porco Azzurro Jedi General

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    Hilarious but interesting debate over flashbacks/forcebacks/memories...

    I’ll throw in there that if you recall in TLJ we apparently saw three more traditional flashbacks, none of which we can entirely trust. :D

    And movie flashbacks are funny anyway, because they are usually not completely (or often even partially) from the point of view of the character involved - if you think about it, an actual memory flashback would be from the character’s 1st-person point of view, through their own eyes, but they’re usually shown from a third-person point of view (for us, the audience).

    I don’t know that this post has any conclusion, more just some scattered thoughts on the subject. :)

    For what it’s worth I think all of you have made some valid points, even though that may seem contradictory!
     
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  11. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Good point. To further the thought, we also had two Force visions that didn't exactly play out the way either expected.
    ________________________
    REY: When we touched hands, I saw your future. Just the shape of it, but solid and clear. You will not bow before Snoke. You'll turn. I'll help you. I saw it.

    KYLO: I saw something too. Because of what I saw, I know when the moment comes, you'll be the one to turn. You'll stand with me. Rey, I saw who your parents are.
    ________________________
    These things don't seem to be terribly reliable :)
     
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  12. Porco Azzurro

    Porco Azzurro Jedi General

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    I think it’s fair to say “many of the truths we cling to...” ...you know the rest :)
     
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  13. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    I believe that's why it's an interesting diversion from a pure flashback - the forceback.

    I thought it was cool, because I hate flashbacks with a passion (@NinjaRen knows my rant on this), and to date I've seen two variations that I think are interesting.
    1) Forceback
    2) Flashover (@NinjaRen's invention)

    Forceback was cool because it didn't just cop out and launch us into "Oh by the way" exposition like flashbacks do, and it inherently comes with the added baggage of uncertainty that propels the character forward. It's not just for our benefit.

    That's actually the only sour note, for me, in TLJ. My stomach sank when we hit the flashback. It's just...eh...crap.
    You don't have to drag us through show me & tell me for exposition; there's a ton of ways you could have delivered the same information more gracefully.
    Compared to everything else in TLJ...Jesus...it sticks out like a sore thumb.

    However, the Forceback was (regardless of how it got there) a very nice way to mix the ideas together because it's like a drug-induced vision quest version of a flashback, and that makes it interesting.

    Ninja's Flashover equally does something interesting, actually even far more than the Forceback by a long shot, because it's used to convey an added dimension of information so that you're effectively getting two streams of information about something at the same time, where the Flashover conveys emotional context as its focus more than expositional context.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  14. p03

    p03 Human/Cyborg Relations

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    If Luke and Lando were tracking Ochi, wouldn't both know about the lttle girl anyway who now looks no different? And neither does DO recognise her? :rolleyes:
     
  15. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

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    The proof is in TRoS's revelations about Rey and her parents, coupled with TLJ's revelations about the ways she had psychologically dealt with the trauma of being abandoned and the falsehoods about her parents and herself that she generated in her own mind as a coping mechanism based on that trauma.

    Furthermore, the narrative structure of what we see concerning the abandonment of Rey and her parent's subsequent deaths shows that they were taken aboard Ochi's ship some time after they had left her with Unkar Plutt, meaning that the likelihood of her having been in a position to physically see Ochi's ship fly away in order to have a memory of it is infinitesimally small.
     
    #55 DigificWriter, May 28, 2020
    Last edited: May 28, 2020
  16. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    I feel like we're back to "and how long does it take to repair a broken hyperdrive?" again.

    That is...attempting to build arguments from assuming timelines in Star Wars.

    Which...yeah...that doesn't go very well.

    Look, if you want it all to be bull, then go for it.

    The thing is, the films don't treat it as bull, so its position on what happened isn't going to line up with your take. What I mean is, if you crack open a bio on Rey, her parents, Ochi, etc... it's not going to vibe with your position, but I mean...anyone can view films how they want to, really.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  17. Ree Yees

    Ree Yees Rebel Official

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    Choose one answer;

    1. That's a story for another time
    2. Somehow, Rey knows

    Best regards,
    JJ
     
  18. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    Yeah, I really don't see this as a really big issue.
    There are far greater off-screen assumption gaps in films than this, by a long shot.

    I feel like being thrown off by this is about like someone being thrown off because they sneezed a couple of times in a movie and didn't see every moment and can't complete the inference of what happened while their eyes were shut for a moment.

    The question of the thread is: "how does Rey know when she sees the ship leaving that 1) it’s Ochi and 2) her parents are on it?"

    QUESTION 1: How does Rey know that is Ochi's Ship?
    She doesn't.
    In TROS, when she sees the ship in the desert, she says, "I've seen that ship before."
    So the answer to item number 1 is, she doesn't.

    QUESTION 2: How does Rey know her parents are on the ship?
    The information we are given.

    Visually we learn:
    Rey's parents hid her in a tent and told her she would be safe.
    Rey's parents appeared to be running into the tent from doing something outside.
    A ship which looks like the one in the desert left Jakku.
    Rey screamed at the ship while Unkar held her back.

    From dialogue we learn:
    The ship in the desert is Ochi's ship.
    Ochi hunted Rey's parents and took them.

    To illustrate:
    rey1.png

    Using inferential logic, we as humans are capable of deducing the following:
    rey2.png

    Now, we can't claim this with 100% certainty because for all we know something like this is what happened during the second gap.


    However, I'm going to cite Occam here. "Plurality must never be posited without necessity".
    That is, if you can solve for an unknown with fewer variables, then do so.

    I fail to see the problem, quite honestly.
    I mean...if this was confusing, Citizen Cane must have been absolutely mind bending.

    There are those who can extrapolate from incomplete information....


    I mean...sheeh...trailers launch with a fraction of information and people are scrambling amazing mountains of inferences out of what little blips of information we see, but two tiny gaps with surrounding inferential information and we're in a crisis of plot?

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #58 Jayson, May 28, 2020
    Last edited: May 28, 2020
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  19. Old Jedi

    Old Jedi Rebelscum

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    Not sure anyone claimed this was a big deal. I just believe that it was an odd and inconsistent way for the writers and editors of the movie to present the information and believe it was a small aspect of a super fun film that could have been improved.

    In the TFA scene Rey doesn’t just scream at the ship, she screams “Come back” implying she knows someone or something on that ship is important to her. So Occam would easily conclude that Rey believed her parents were on that ship.

    So then in TROS we have to believe that despite Rey knowing her parents were on that ship leaving Jakku she did NOT know who Ochi was or had never seen him before - otherwise almost surely she would recognize Ochi when shown the hologram by Lando before she sees the ship again. So the movies present that Rey knows only the ship - so somehow she was in close enough proximity to know her parents were on this ship but had never seen Ochi before. So despite Rey’s parents being frantic about saving her and seemingly being tied up on the ship when Ochi stabs them, they must not have been forced onto the ship by Ochi. So I guess we should infer that while Rey was held back by Unkar her parents just walked aboard Ochi’s ship by choice. The trauma of the event left her with a memory that was jogged only by seeing the ship.

    Maybe that’s possible, but it’s pretty illogical.

    Well done on the diagrams though.
     
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  20. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    [​IMG]

    Thanks for the complement, but your description flies in the opposite direction of a very simple and logical inference.

    Rey doesn't need to know who Ochi is in any way to have seen her parents board the ship.
    That's what the diagram shows.

    It's very simple.

    Ochi arrives, and Rey's parents pick up his scent and scramble.
    Rey's parents put her in a tent.
    Rey's parents go out and make a deal with Unkar.
    Rey's parents come back into the tent and tell her she'll be safe here.
    Rey's parents leave Rey.
    Unkar grabs Rey and they start walking off.
    Rey's parents run off the other way and end up with Ochi.
    Rey see's none of this with Ochi; just her parents running off from the tent and not coming with her.
    Rey keeps turning around and trying to go to her parents, back the way she came.
    Rey sees her parents boarding that ship from a distance one of the times she turns around.
    Rey doesn't understand why.
    Rey starts throwing a fit because she wants her parents and doesn't understand why they're leaving.
    The ship takes off.
    Rey screams at the ship, yelling for her parents to come back because she doesn't understand what's going on.
    Unkar pulls Rey and keeps her from running off.

    That is not illogical.
    That's just basic inference.
    People do this everyday in regular life when seeing children throwing fits in stores and catching pieces of the conversation.

    This is by far easier than inferring the situation between a child and an adult in Walmart.

    Again...Citizen Kane must be truly dizzying if this is even considered as even a minor issue of any kind.
    It's not illogocial, it's regular film language.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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