How much involvement do you think Snoke had with Kylo abandoning the Jedi Order?

Yes, it's a powerful word

Of course, we can say "strong" or "powerful" and mean either, while others will more finely discern, as we can, between what is strength versus what is power. I certainly know and appreciate such differences.

I used the word power in my first post above based primarily on a recent reading of the novelization.

The word "power" is used a few times but at key points in The Force Awakens novelization.

When Kylo stops Poe's shot, it is said:

"The gesture was merely the physical manifestation of something infinitely more powerful."
(not infinitely stronger)​

After interrogating Rey, Ren goes out, and it is said:

"At that moment, he did not feel powerful."
(not strong)​

At one point Snoke says to Kylo Ren:

"No one knows the limits of his own power until it has been tested to the utmost, as yours has not been. That day may yet come."
(not strength)​

Then there as Kylo's famous apostrophe with Vader's helmet:

"Show me again the power of the darkness..."
(not strength)​

Snoke also reprimands Hux:

"The more time we give them, the more likely the chance, however slight, that they will find Skywalker and convince him to return to challenge our power."
(not strength)​

When Han Solo confronts his son, he tells him:

"Snoke's using you for your power...."
(not strength)​

The word strength does occur a few times as well in the book, as in Snoke's exchange with Ren about Rey:

"It isn't her strength that is making you fail. It's your weakness."​

I do hope we get to learn more about Ben's powers as well as his strengths and weaknesses.

JediMasterRobert

 

ooo great list!

"power" is most often used when referencing actual physical might (as through the Force, most often), whereas strength is something different (it's moral [?], it's fortitude, it's will).
even Ren's appeal to Vader about showing him the power of the Dark side, is an appeal for power to cover up weakness (lack of strength).

power is like spackle.

 

Well said!

I completely agree!

JediMasterRobert

 

It is strange that this hasn't been discussed very much. Specifically I'm surprised that people haven't been fast to point out that Snoke (so far) seems like this trilogy's Palpatine. Palpatine turned the OT's primary antagonist, a Skywalker. Snoke (possibly) turned this trilogy's antagonist, also a Skywalker. Palpatine was the head of the Galatic Empire, Snoke is the head of the First Order.

So, much like the following comparisons that have been made comparing the roles of various Force Awakens characters (I mean I don't necessarily agree that these are great comparisons, but they have been made and I do think there are aspects in which each comparison lines up correctly):
OT -> Force Awakens
Luke -> Rey
Obi Wan -> Han
Yoda -> Maz
...

I think similarly Palpatine -> Snoke, and that yes, Snoke is likely to be largely responsible for turning Ben Solo. For those that have pointed out that Han and Leia had different perspectives on Kylo Ren (Han: too much Vader, Leia: it was Snoke all along). Those two things can actually be viewed as being the same, for part of Vader's story was that he was slowly turned by a mysterious force user. So if Snoke was responsible then they are saying precisely the same thing about what made their son fall to the dark side. Although I'm somewhat doubtful that's what the writers intended.

 

while i am curious about this question, i also feel like children can be easily led. Ben is clearly an emotional person and given his lack of willpower seems like an easy victim.

i won't be disappointed if we never find out the details. i think the abuse dynamic between him and Snoke is pretty clear in the subtext.

 

Yeah it's likely that, prior to Kylo Ren, Snoke would have to have had someone to do his dirty work so he could remain safely in hiding.

 

I think that could be a possibility that Kylo actually Ren actually awaene Snke who's an "ancient fear" and smoke slowly takes over Ben which causes Ben to turn evil sort of like a horror movie where an ancient evil is awakened and turns everything to h#ll .

 

Considering that Snoke has what look like third-degree burns, I'm looking forward to the "Bloodline" novel that's coming out soon. The tidbit that has been published ends with an explosion, a terrorist attack on some New Republic government building from which Leia can escape in time. If she had been forced to work alongside a dubious Snoke under the New Republic, that might explain how Ben knew the guy from the beginning. The explosion might give Snoke a motive to jump ship for good. It would also explain why Leia originally thought sending Ben away was a good idea. Because she was a working mom and wanted to remove her kid from Snoke's sphere of influence (her work place, video-conferencing, home visits...).

Do we know that Snoke was actively in touch with Ben/Kylo while he was with Luke and later doing his thing with the Knights of Ren? Or did Snoke seduce Ben via the Knights of Ren, and only got in touch with him again after the Bloodline event?

 

As much as I think your ideas here are clever and a good way of explaining certain things, I just don't like it as it means Snoke is a very convenient new villain dropped into the middle of the saga rather than someone who has relevance to everything that has transpired thus far - like Plagueis or an ancient Whill or someone would.

 

This "from the shadows" allusion still gives them the opportunity to create a Palpatine parallel. And Palpatine turned out to be a Dark Force lord posing as a humble politician.

Edit: The only difference to the regular Plagues discussion is that the baddie's facial injuries are recent, no matter how old he is.

 

But for me, if it's Plagueis, then he'd have to have been scarred up before the PT, let alone the ST.

 

this suggests that people who are ugly/scarred must necessarily be evil.
all Snoke had to be was kind to hide his true nature. we see him fawn over Ren in the book.
children don't care what people look like. they care about how they are made to feel.

i don't think Snoke needed any help necessarily. to do what?
so long as he had access to Ben's mind, there's no reason they would have ever even needed to be in physical proximity.
the fact that Leia knows him could be chalked up to a Force awareness or a physical relationship. either option is viable.

 

Ren is clearly powerfully FS ~ maybe Snoke being in his head isn't the weirdest part of his experience discovering that.
not to mention, again, Ben's biases against scary zombie-things might not be our own.
also, Snoke wouldn't have had to be seen to be felt or heard. a kindly voice whispering in the dark doesn't need to be terrifying.
it might actually have started out as a comfort for a kid whose father wasn't ever going to be able to understand him.

why would they have to be suspicious? people get in accidents all the time.
Snoke could say he was a victim of Imperial destruction. portray himself as a victim.

if he had a physical presence with Leia (and i'm not convinced he did), he might have been a senator, a diplomat/representative from some far system, a New Republic advisor, who knows? possibilities seem pretty open.

 

That sounds sort of like Palpatine and Anakin Skywalker's relationship .

 

Astute analysis!

With regards to the OP, I think there is a significant difference between abandoning the Jedi Order and destroying it.

If there was no Snoke/dark side influence, perhaps Ben would have left the Order and gone off into the galaxy to find himself, his purpose, and his place in the universe; a journey of self-discovery.

With Snoke, Kylo was given a purpose and a place. He was to be the successor to Darth Vader and rule/bring order to the galaxy from a unofficial command position in the First Order. Part of this process involved eliminating any rivals/threats to this goal; destroying the Jedi Order and the New Republic.

 

To the OP: I agree

Snoke didn't created the Knights of Ren

Knights of Ren are the result of the event, and from that event their name has been coined to.

Kylo Ren helped to destroy Luke's Jedi order but not all Jedi's died. They changed their allegiance from Luke to Snoke and became , instead of Jedi Knights, the Knights of rebellion, of renegade, Knights of Ren.

 

The Knights of Ren existed before Luke's Order fell.