How much involvement do you think Snoke had with Kylo abandoning the Jedi Order?

How do you know that?

I may be lacking critical information about the timeline of creation of Knights of Ren but where is that information?

 

Driver said the KoR already existed before he joined them. Ben joined the KoR after he destroyed Luke's Jedi so that means the KoR aren't a group of Luke's renegade students. I think Ren literally killed the other students.

 

I dont think its profitable to use word "literally" whe we are talking about SW, Jedi and Sith, most notably when Adam Driver "told" so much details about KOR, back then.

In fact he told very little but we invested our desire in interpretation, didnt we all? Just like Serkis said Snoke is Snoke, people made almost a books about it.

From my point of view, KOR could have existed few minutes or 30 years before Kylo joined them or his action actually created them .The same counts for claim that Kylo Ren killed all the Jedi..

Just remember Ben Kenobi, his story about Vader ,who killed Luke's father,and what became at the end of this story...

However we see they do use analogies. I use analogy of Anakins turn to the Dark Side. It came in a single moment od betrayal when he was forced to choose between 2 otpions, and sliced Mace Vindu's hand enabling Palpatine to finish him of.

I expect , propose, such thing did happen to Kylo, and I propose this will happen in a decisive battle, te battle of the Clan of already mutinied , renegaded Jedi's, against Lukes Jedi order. The decision to change the side will bring Kylo Ren responsible for defeat an masacre of all Jedi, and definitive creation of Organisation we call Knights of Ren.

However, maybee the KOR were established before. But in this case the clan had a leader .

Did the Clan leader just left his position in favor of Kylo ( not a practice amongst dark Force wielders)or Kylo Ren killed the leader to became leader of Knights of Ren?

 

Sorry, I just don't buy that. For this to happen, Kylo (and Snoke) would've have to have turned the other Jedi as well. But it is apparent that Kylo is at best conflicted himself. It took some doing to get him to turn bad. And I mean, Driver was pretty explicit. They existed before he joined them. If Kylo was the one to have destroyed the Jedi, as is described, then the KoR can't be made up of renegade Jedi - it just doesn't fit.

I think the KoR are independent to Snoke but were formed as a reaction to the demise of the Sith. My personal view is that they were once the Acolytes of the Beyond (who say in Aftermath that they are not violent yet). I think they're this "satellite" group, as Driver calls them, who are brought into the fold by Snoke and Kylo when he joins them and becomes their master.

 

I am very convinced The Knights of Ren are renegaded Jedi's.

They are some knights afteral.What knights?

If they are knights they were trained. but, Snoke is not very generous trainer.

Snoke likes to control, and "advise" but to train...well..he has second thoughts ( not that i know him, I watched TFA).

We are focusing on Snoke and Kylo, but its logic that Snoke intention to get its grip on Kylo is just most important part of wider Snokes' conspiracy against the Lukes order.Which is inevitable, as the destraction of the Jedi order is prerequisity for Snoke to take control of the Galaxy.

I can imagine Snoke did , spoiled(renegaded) The Force sensitives for years before, when Kylo was still a kid. Lea says Kylo has watched her son always. Isnt logic that Snok wactshe other Force sensitivwes also? Of Course kylo is by his birthright predestined to be most powerfull of them.

The turn of the Kylo to the Dark side was a crawn of his achievement.


Jedi knigts spoiled by Snoke before Kylo most probabaly already have established their Clan (a secret Clan within Jedi order, or they were already left the Order). And of course had a Leader.

Where is The leader of the Clan, of the KOR befor Kylo Ren joied them? He must have been killed.

Kylo helped them in a moment of betrayal, in a battle of the Clan of rebelled Knights against the rest of Luke's jedi.

 

"Luke was training a new generation of Jedi - one boy, an apprentice, destroyed it all".
That doesn't sound to me like Luke had difficulties prior to Ben's turn where he was losing Jedi students from his ranks.
If this was the case, would he have taken on Ben from Leia, considering why she sent him to Luke?

I think it much more likely that the Acolytes of the Beyond, an obsessed Sith death cult (opposite to the Church of the Force) were at some stage approached by Snoke and given knowledge/power to truly follow in the footsteps of their beloved evil order. Snoke then turned Ben and he betrayed the Jedi and joined the Knights of Ren/He joined the KoR and with them destroyed all the Jedi. The Visual Dictionary calls Kylo a "Jedi Killer" and Solo just says "one boy destroyed it all" so it is maybe more likely that Ben destroyed them and this proved his loyalty to the KoR and Snoke.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 11, 2016, Original Post Date: Mar 11, 2016 ---

I also think that Ren simply has the in-universe meaning of "The Dark Side" or "The Force" or "King/Messiah/Chosen One".

 

I am afraid any my agument can't pass at you, dont know why.


Snoke has extreme contempt for training the others. He is not generous trainer.

He didn't trained Knights of Ren.

Certainly his "teachings" didin't brought a group of Force users to the level of them be called a Knights (KOR)

I am 100 % sure in this what I am talking, Snoke didn't trained KOR initially.

It was someone who's life goal was to create new generation of Knights.

 

If you want to consider the inspiration for the term "ren" then these are my favourites:

1. Buddhism: Many deities of Asian religions are depicted as seated on a lotus flower. In Buddhist symbolism, the lotus represents purity of the body, speech, and mind as if floating above the muddy waters of attachment and desire. In Japanese the lotus signifies love and romance. It can also represent immortality.

2. (Chinese): Ren is the Confucian virtue denoting the good feeling a virtuous human experiences when being altruistic. Ren is exemplified by a normal adult's protective feelings for children. It is considered the outward expression of Confucian ideals.

3. Egyptian mythology/religion: The true name, a vital part to man on his journey through life and the afterlife, a magical part that could destroy a man if his name was obliterated or could give power of the man if someone knew his Ren - naming ceremonies in Egypt were secret, and a child lived his whole life with a nickname to avoid anyone from learning his true name. Dollinger (2003) states that, "The name, (MdC transliteration rn), is the foundation of a being as an individual. Only when it has a name, when it can be addressed and related to, does it begin its proper existence ... An important part of ensuring the continued existence after death was the perpetuation of the name".

And from Wiki:

As a part of the soul, a person's ren (rn 'name') was given to them at birth and the Egyptians believed that it would live for as long as that name was spoken, which explains why efforts were made to protect it and the practice of placing it in numerous writings. For example, part of the Book of Breathings, a derivative of the Book of the Dead, was a means to ensure the survival of the name. A cartouche (magical rope) often was used to surround the name and protect it. Conversely, the names of deceased enemies of the state, such as Akhenaten, were hacked out of monuments in a form of damnatio memoriae. Sometimes, however, they were removed in order to make room for the economical insertion of the name of a successor, without having to build another monument. The greater the number of places a name was used, the greater the possibility it would survive to be read and spoken.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 11, 2016, Original Post Date: Mar 11, 2016 ---

Crackpot theory:

The Knights of Ren worship "The Chosen One". They are neither good or evil. They are simply a religious order that sees the Chosen One as a God/Or Son of God. They believe that this Chosen One will be resurrected. They perhaps believe that Ben Skywalker is either the Chosen One resurrected or the person who should be their master because he is a direct decedent of the Chosen One. However, if you take into account this line from the quotes above:

"...naming ceremonies in Egypt were secret, and a child lived his whole life with a nickname to avoid anyone from learning his true name".

Now who in TFA has potentially a secret name? Wink wink.

Answer: Rey - potentially viewed as the true reincarnation of the Chosen One by the KoR??

 

This much knowledge, in this case, is overkill.

I truly like outright American workaround about the names, its sipmple, crude, jet somehow effective, love to track their name coins. I love their short names Finn, Rey,Han, Hux, Kylo, Schmi,Luke, ..its not American names always in SW but the people who craft those names are Americans, its in their culture to that kind of names workaraound, shorts...and whatabout their contractions!!! whoa.. Its the brain.....and I was so rude to track this using my other skills in linguistics and division of a dictionary.

Al – Albert, Alfred, Alan
Bob – Robert
Beth – Elizabeth
Bill(y) – William
Cathy – Catherine
Chris – Christopher
Deb(bie) – Deborah, Debra
Dick(y)(ie) – Richard
Don(nie)(y) – Donald
Dom – Domenic, Dominic
Ed(die)(dy) – Edward
Fred(dy)(die) – Frederick
Jim(my)(mie) – James
Joe(y) – Joseph
Kate – Katherine
Kim – Kimberl(e)y
Larry – Lawrence
Liz – Elizabeth
Maggie(y) – Margaret
Margy(ie) – Margaret
Matt(y)(ie) – Matthew
Mike – Michael
Nick – Nicholas
Peggy – Margaret
Phil – Phillip/Philip
Pete – Peter
Rick(y) – Richard
Ray – Raymond
Ron(ny)(ie) – Ronald, Veronica
Steve – Steven, Stephen
Tina – Christina
Tim(my) – Timothy
Tom(my) – Thomas
Tory(ie) – Victoria
Will(ie)(y) – William
Vic – Victor
Vin(nie)(ny) – Vincent
Val – Valerie... just a scrahc.

And anothe scratch of their Contractions::::
going to gonna
want to wanna
have to hafta
has to hasta
had to hadta
used to useta
got to gotta ... a tip of the iceberg


Now track the people who coined the names for new trilogy.Oh look, our American cousins again.

Ren from Renegade sounds enough American to me.

And of course Sith No One Knew Existed has a secret name...hehe---a.perfect American contraction !

Besides , in the First place, one who walks on the Stars,is the Skywalker.

I must have been non-american.

 

Going by this logic it could mean:

Rent-a-kill - a group of mercenaries, available for hire. Competative prices. Even take out Jedi.
Renaissance - an enlightened group of individuals who take joy in both killing Jedi and collecting ancient artefacts.
Render - They will render you useless by chopping off your limbs. There CGI heavy scenes also take ages to render.
Renovate - Architects of the First Order
Renditions - The ultimate 7 piece performance act
Renewal - They will renew the Dark Side to its former glory!
Rendezvous - They wish to meet with the Chosen One reincarnate!
Renowned - A renowned bunch of Jedi killers

 

Could, be, however Renegade is an action, and also a Rebelion, also a religious rebelion, an SW loves rebelions and disturbances in the faith. Anyhow, we have locked their name crafting on our scanner.

 

Renaissance is also an action, it means revival or rebirth...

 

The notion of Leia hiding things from Han concerning his child is intriguing. Shielding Han. Leia thinking she knows best.

 

And she acknowledges that was a mistake.
It looks like Ben's biggest issue was with his father. He clearly loved him (else he wouldn't have been conflicted) but he also loathed him.
Han had a rich history. He had achieved a lot. He was revered. Ben was likely known as Han Solo's son.
But instead of resolving that problem, Leia exacerbated it by sending Ben away. This meant he would feel even more bitterness towards his father, continue to resent him and allow Snoke to make Ben feel he should be greater than just being Han Solo's son. This in turn likely makes Ben view Han as below him due to his lack of Force ability.

This choice by Leia, as again she admits, also drove Han away. It made Han feel powerless and a failed father - so he went back to do what he was best at.

 

From an early age, Ben was pissed he wasn't Luke's kid. He had to settle for being a politician / turned general's kid...doubt that helps his relationship with Hux...

 

Sure Knights of Ren are renaissanse of---Sith? In this case agree!!!!

Cmon people 2+2 = 4

Knights of Ren are Renegades from Lukes Jedi knights.

For the mess is responsible Sith No One Knew Existed, pseudonyme SNOKE.

 

Han totally gave up on Ben, which might be a clue, too, to the disconnect between them.
when Leia says he can bring him back because you're his father, Han looks skeptical.
when she tells him "if you see our son; bring him home," Han looks doubtful.
even when he approaches Ben on the bridge, you don't see him hopeful until Ben starts to break (when he says "it's too late").
then, finally, Han steps up like: hey: maybe i can reach him.

and Snoke so obviously knows this is pain point for Ren, which is why he pushes him (not for any specifically Sithy reason other than to be awful). he knows it's going to be hard for Ren to kill his father because of the intensity of his love in spite of his anger and disappointment.

Ren and Hux hate eachother so much you have to figure each of them thinks the other is completely beneath them.
seems less about daddy issues than the overall power dynamic, though.

 

I think Snoke had a lot to do with Kylo leaving the Jedi Order, but I think he would have done it mainly through sneaky and indirect methods.

Warning: Crack Theory Ahead.

In addition to his own subtle prods and pushes, what if Snoke was using Rey’s Mother to influence Kylo and to spy on and weaken Luke? She could have joined Luke’s New Jedi under false pretences, as a tool of Snoke’s. Perhaps Rey’s Mother was a Force user that had connections to Vader and the Old Empire. Maybe she could have worked under Vader in a similar vein to the Inquisitorius, or perhaps even an as an apprentice or potential apprentice, and/or maybe was the female Acolyte of the Beyond mentioned in Aftermath. Perhaps she was sent off to do important work in the unknown regions, and this is where she hooked up with Snoke after the retreat of the Empire. If she worked closely with Vader (or even Sideous), maybe she had a Force bond/connection that enabled her to know what happened on the DS II, and this is where Snoke gained his information on this? This could account for Rey’s strength in the Force, and her ability to learn so quick from Kylo through her apparent affinity for Force bonding, which she inherited from her Mother. Snoke could have used this female to get close to Luke, weaken him through attachment, and gain inside info of the New Jedi, plus also to influence Kylo. This female could have been the one to start Kylo on the Vader fanboy path, which would have been easy if she was into Vader too and she developed a close bond with Kylo. However, perhaps things got complicated for this female, and as she tried to tried to pull Luke into darkness, he succeeded in pulling her towards the Light. After using her dark arts to seduce Luke, perhaps Luke discovered her duplicity and banished her from the Order. Then it gets real complicated, as this female realises she’s carrying Luke’s child. If Kylo idealised this female and the ideas she planted in his head, and Luke rejects this female and banishes her, and Luke doesn’t explain to Kylo why he did this, this, then this could have driven a wedge between Luke and Kylo, and pushed Kylo deeper into Snoke’s influence. This dark female could have fallen in love with Luke herself, and accepts banishment as she harbors guilt about her duplicity, and she doesn’t want to weaken Luke further with attachment to her and a child. Thus, she may have kept the child a secret to Luke. Also, the child may have helped free her from the influence of Snoke, and she has more reason to keep the child hidden and a secret, in order to protect the child, as surely she has become a target for destruction by Snoke now she has stopped being his tool, and she knows Snoke would be interested in her and Luke’s offspring. Kylo may, or may not, have aided this females flight from Luke (and Snoke, but he doesn’t know this) and maybe even have known she was pregnant. Kylo could hold the loss of this influential female against Luke, and maybe part of the reason Kylo wants a face to face with Luke is to hold him accountable for his actions against this female, and for revenge for the loss of her in his life. It could also provide a way for Kylo to drive a wedge between Luke and Rey, if he reveals Rey’s parentage and the fact that Luke was the reason for Rey’s Mother’s destruction.


I needed a little break from all the overanalysis, and felt like delving into the realms of pure, unadulterated speculation.
Please, by all means help me to explore evidence to prove or disprove this crack theory.

 

One thing I am convinced is that Snoke is phisically mostly inactive, in the way he is not present ever near his subjects.He likes to control from the distance as he is very fragile.

Please , note this--Snoke's control room :
In the center is Snoke as a Hologram, and this room is like an circular Theater, with hundreds of seets. Its designed for ultimate remote control over many of his subjects.





Somehow, in a remote parts of the galaxy he took the control of the remnants of the Empire army, probably by influencing former Imperial commanders locally, than globaly, and he took care that First Order is now led by his favourite and trusted men,like Hux.

He orchestrated mutiny of Luke's Jedi and deceived Ben, this led to creation of Renegaded Knights, now led by Kylo, as another asset in his plan to control the Galaxy.

He pulls te strings from far away, he never trained any Knight of Ren personaly.

He did had formal apprentice long time ago, very long time ago, as he says in the novel,

(no way)

... but the Knights of Ren are not his apprentices, though this Clan is another his creation in the same subversve way as the First Order.


He is great player from a Distance.

 

Reminds me of some of my old uni lecture rooms, lol.