Kylo Ren is trying to protect the balance between Light and Dark

I agree that Anakin and Ben where in very different places when they fell. Anakin was a grown man. A grown man in a desperate situation who wasn't the most stable of fellows, but a man nonetheless. He made a choice. Ben probably didn't have much of a choice.

I'm a little confused by your first paragraph. So far as I know, Ben was raised by Han and Leia before he was sent to train under Luke. I'm probably just misunderstanding your writing, but it almost seems like you think Luke didn't try to teach Ben how to avoid the Dark Side.

 

are you referring to the paragraph where i say "Ben fell under bad influence for lack of guidance and lack of choices"?

i'm saying before he even went to Luke he was already corrupted by Snoke.
Leia sent him to Luke when she realized he was falling--i'm thinking it was too late already.

i'm sure when Luke got him, Luke tried his darndest ~ i have no doubt Luke did everything he could.
but if Snoke had already predisposed the kid against his own family, it was a losing battle to try to reign him back in.
particularly if Snoke's influence went unabated even when Ben got sent away.

 

Ah, okay, so you think Snoke started in on Ben while he was still with Han and Leia. Got it, sorry for the confusion!

 

yeah i get that impression from Leia's line about Snoke being there "from the start" knowing their kid would be strong with the Force.
and we know from the book that Han had no idea Snoke was messing with Ben because Leia kept him out of the loop hoping to get it under control herself.

and no worries! ~ i type too fast sometimes and am not terribly articulate when i do ~ hahaha

 

Oh no, I understand. My old job didn't involve a lot of typing, so my skills got a little rusty, and my computer autocorrects in rather... interesting ways. I've had to slow down and focus on each word to make sure I don't have a typo anywhere.

 

i meant to say too, about this: you're right ~ Anakin was not exactly stable, though as much as he and his grandson seem to have in common, i think their core temperaments are very different if for no other reason than Anakin fully believed in his own powers and destiny; he had all the confidence in the world and was brought down by his own hubris you could argue.

we don't know what Ben was like when he was younger, but in TFA, his confidence feels like a sham--he seems mostly afraid of his own perceived inadequacy (despite all that phenomenal power, which seems like it could outstrip grandpa, even). and his fall seems to have precipitated from weakness rather than strength.

 

Love this. You might even call him humble. (Would be easier to do if he was walking the light path and doing good in the world, but still.)

P. Hidalgo has characterized him as entitled, but that doesn't ring true for me. Even if he feels he has a claim to the lightsaber (because of a family tie to it or whatever), I'm with you, he never struck me as haughty.

 

i think we were touching on this before in another thread: whatever his failings (and he has many), he does have an ingenuous sense dedication/honesty that i think Anakin lacked.
in a way he's arrogant because he knows the fate of the galaxy rests with his destiny (and he's not wrong, in part, frankly).
but it's obviously a huge burden too and he's not exactly shored up to handle it under the pressure.

and the lightsaber is his--very probably.

it does seem that if you could just give him courage and course-correct him, he has qualities to be a perfectly honorable hero.

 

Also telling (someone mentioned this elsewhere, I think) -- that when he talks of objectives, it's always "we" or "the First Order." He believes he's acting in the service of an entity greater than himself.

"Now you're going to give it to the First Order."
"We have what we need."
etc...

If he believed he was leading the FO, that his agenda was the one to be followed, he would speak in a more personal way about those things. "I" and "me" and so on.

Is this speculation on your part, or does the novel hint at this, or...?

Liiiiiiike...

 

yes! i keep saying he's totally drank the kool-aid ~ it's even more apparent in the book perhaps.

well one way or the other, it's true. he and Rey are or will be at the center of this galactic conflict.
it's just a question of whether they'll be on opposite sides or joined in forces against Snoke.
as to how do we know that he thinks that, it feels fairly obvious that this is the kool-aid, so to speak.
Snoke has set him to exceed Vader (and he believes that he should).
Vader had only one Master and could have ruled the galaxy.
Ren technically bows to no master (he has a mentor grooming him for the highest leadership).

• he's honest/direct (okay, to the point of bluntness, but it's still a good quality ~ hahaha).
  
• he's sensitive/idealisitc: he doesn't like suffering; we see it in his reaction to the Starkiller, he says so in the book with regards to Rey, he takes pity on Finn on Jakku [though not sure this is canon anymore], and it's what's driving him: a well-ordered galaxy that is just.
  
• he's funny (he has a sense of humor, which Vader certainly didn't).
  
• he's stupidly powerful and not afraid of fighting (no lack of bravery in that regard).

underneath all his distrust and misdirection, he does possess the best qualities of his mother and father, really.
unfortunately, he has some of their worst as well (stubbornness, intellectual sloppiness, recklessness, dogmatism) ~ hahaha

 

@FN-3263827 - Oh no, I was saying I really like your observation that, hidden under his flaws and baggage, he has the qualities of a hero. I agree!

(Note to self: tone of voice isn't legible. )

 

ha! ~ that's okay!
let it be known i never shirk from a challenge (even when one isn't actually proffered!).
and it's good exercise at any rate.
for my own sake, i like to know i'm not making claims i can't substantiate ~ hahaha

 

Ha! Hey, if you want to make arguments for Kylo Ren's quality of character, don't let an agreeing viewpoint get in your way! Hahahaha...

The only thing I'm not yet convinced of is that he knows what his destiny is. We know his role is an important one, and we speculate that he'll walk the "gray" path, and we have a pretty good idea how powerful he could be in that regard. And I don't doubt that Snoke has painted him a grand picture of himself (seems every would-be apprentice gets the "It Is Your Desiny" treatment). But to say, at this point in time, that Kylo Ren's motivation is to bring balance to the Force, and he is actively pursuing that goal -- I don't see the evidence for that. Not yet.

 

He does seem to take things personally. Who does that sound like? Only he doesn't have someone else to be his conscience. And he does seem to have a sense of greater purpose and duty. We don't know what that is, but I don't think he is going to find it in the place he is or anywhere he has looked already. It may be he is stuck. He seems stuck right now. The movie first bothered me because here was the kid of the characters who had the exchange of "I don't know who you are or where you come from, but from now on you do what I tell you, ok" and "I only take orders from one person, me" and that he seemed to be a puppet to someone else, but I realized that maybe he isn't. Like you say, he has no master, but when I first saw the film, I didn't see that. It wasn't that obvious to me. I think he knows that Snoke is using him, and I think to some extent he is using Snoke. I bet Snoke realizes that, you can tell he doesn't trust him. I really wanted to see his expression when the planets were being blown up. We saw Hux and the gang, but he was off on the bridge, looking out. I wondered what he felt. He did seem to take pity on Finn, but the more I think about it, the more I wonder if he had empathy with him in that scene where he observes him, and in the book, Finn thinks he is dead when he knows he is being noticed. Later on at the end when he and Finn and Rey are in the snow with the lightsabers, he is mad at Finn. This guy seems to have Daddy issues, and who becomes mentor to these two? His father, then Finn brought him there to TAKE REY, and he had to kill Han, and I don't think he wanted to do it. Finn has the lightsaber too that should be his, or maybe was, I am sure he has seen it before, or if not, that is some bad writing there. Why would he say "That lightsaber is mine". How would he know it? He has had it before. Most of these things are personal, a few may be playing along with Snoke.

He isn't as dedicated to the FO in the sense that Hux is, it's more like his own way.

 

yeah, it's hazy.
i'm going on the assumption that it's what he intends to finish that Vader started .
he evidently has some "grand plan" about that and it's not necessarily one that directly involves Snoke.
Vader had two possible perceived unfinished goals: rule the galaxy / bring balance to the Force.
and since these things are not in contradiction i have a feeling that Ren's focus is on bringing balance while Snoke's focus is on ruling the galaxy.
which is not to say Ren is even in contradiction with Snoke, per se, but that he's approaching it from a different place ideologically
(i.e. Snoke wants control, Ren wants order--and Ren's been duped into thinking Snoke's machine is fulfilling order).

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 17, 2016, Original Post Date: Apr 17, 2016 ---

i think Ren Ben is very head strong, i agree.
but being under the thumb of Snoke seems to be a very very complex thing.
Snoke has made him dependent; Ren literally wants to serve and thinks he's got agency because that's how Snoke has crafted him.
it's why he's so undisciplined; Snoke has allowed him to "be his own person" within some very interesting limits.
i've likened it elsewhere to keeping a dog on a very long leash.

Han confronts his son and points at the leash and says: hey, one day he's gonna yank on that, you know.
And Ren Ben doesn't want to admit it because being manipulated by evil jackholes is very emotionally complicated.
he knows that his father is right. but he can't handle the truth--quite literally. that's what's tearing him apart.
because while on the one hand he's playing Space Vader and terrorizing the galaxy like he owns the joint,
the truth is he's scared and he's voluntarily (he believes) given himself body and soul to the toilet monster--so he thinks there's no coming back from that.
Snoke has destroyed his sense of self and his ability to self-actualize.

which is why he has such a huge beef with Finn. he let this guy off the hook and ever since then things have gone to heck in a handbasket.
and look at Finn: there's a man who had the courage to say no, to walk away, to choose.
and Ren Ben is jealous and made to feel like a coward, and disempowered by his inability to control the situation which just endlessly spirals out.
and yeah, to top it all off, Finn's working with his father, and has got his lightsaber.

and yeah i suspect he thinks of the FO as a tool, where to Hux it's his "empire" ~ hahaha

 

Toilet monster needs to be flushed and fast.

 

i feel like there just isn't sufficient outrage against the toilet monster.

 

Agreed. Well said. He has a goal. He tries to reach that goal by all means. Even if it destroys him or others. The idea of what he think is the right purpose or endgoal stands above everything else. And I never meant to excuse anything that Ren has done.

 

What is the purpose of this comment and others similar to this? Are we expected to simply demonize Anakin for his choices and pretend that Kylo Ren was coerced into embracing evil? If not, what are you trying to say?

 

i know you don't @oldbert!
you totally get it!
i was referring to people on Tumblr and stuff who are whitewashing the bad stuff Ren's done, or playing the boo-hoo card in a way that's rather superficial.

yeah, pretty much.

but "demonize" isn't really fair. i have a lot of empathy for Anakin/Vader and i reject that characterization personally.

nevertheless Anakin did absolutely choose for selfish reasons.
Kylo Ren seems to have been set to a task that he absolutely does seem to embrace, but i seriously doubt he believes he "chose" it.
it will be interesting to see if we learn more specifics in viii as to his thinking process.
right now, the clues suggest that he's blindly following a perceived destiny that may largely be a cockamamie fish story concocted by the toilet monster.