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Reducing the backlash by making snoke into the prime jedi

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by zazeron, Jan 3, 2018.

  1. zazeron

    zazeron Rebelscum

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    Luke and rey are in the cave where rey meditated...and rey notices "the prime jedi" on the floor symbol.


    Luke looks at it and rey asks..."who was he"?


    Luke says this


    "The first jedi of the order, a ancient jedi in balance...till he became snoke"...


    Luke than explains that


    "snoke was the first jedi to ever exist and was betrayed by his own order and became the first dark sider born from the jedi. He created the sith and even trained them at some point as a army to control the galaxy in his name but with his immense power he was above them, kind of like a god-king of the sith empire. He was defeated thousands of years ago by a ancient jedi named revan and was imprisoned in a distant corner of the galaxy where even the jedi forgotten about him. But Palpatine found out his location and in the event of his death, sent out his most loyal followers to go out there and release him and create new type of empire(the first order). They did find him released him with ancient sith artifacts, but he was in a weakened state since his battle with the ancient jedi. He needs to merge with a younger and powerful host, because any other host would not handle that type of power. And as a result had shown interest to Ben solo, whom he manipulated his whole life till he became kylo ren. Because snoke wants to merge with him but cannot because kylo ren still has light in him and thus cannot merge with him"

    AND THIS ALSO HAPPENS

    Snoke reiterates this to hux, saying that intends to merge with kylo ren after he purges the light out of him by forcing him to kill Rey. He than precedes to tell hux that the official story would be that rey killed snoke and kylo ren avenged him by slaying her. He tells hux this to threaten hux not to get any ideas while this happens.


    This not only fixes the last jedi but strengthens it in 3 ways


    1. It makes snoke into the first jedi and the creator of the sith...tying his origins to the first jedi temple(where he really was never there personally and the temple itself was built after his fall). This creates a twist for the movie because most people would not have expected snoke to be the first jedi. And it also adds lore to the first jedi temple.


    2. It gives Luke some much needed motive for ending the jedi, because he realizes that the jedi are built on flawed and shakey foundations and history. Not only was the creator of the sith the first jedi, but according to legend the jedi expelled him and betrayed him because of his beliefs in balance. The jedi that betrayed snoke did not want to aknowledge that the dark side is a natural part of the force. And in their dogmatic arrogance basically took the jedi away from snoke and turned him into a Peedunky bent on revenge. The entire jedi order is responsible for the creation of the sith and the deaths of countless innocent people. Luke also has motivations for killing Ben solo, because ever since the boy was born Luke had visions of kylo ren becoming the ultimate dark side user. And when he found out about snoke and his nature he realizes that killing Ben solo means stopping snoke from getting a new body. Snoke won't be able to possess Luke or Leia because both are too old.


    3. It adds layers to snokes death, not only would snokes death become thematically stronger, but it would also adds layers to snokes actions. Snoke is the representation of "the past" that kylo ren wants to kill, snoke is the first sith and the first jedi. Killing snoke strengthens kylo ren. It also forces hux into a guessing game on whether or not kylo is possessed by snoke


    Snoke wanted a puppet, to turn kylo ren into a vessel for his own wish fufillment fantasy of the ultimate evil skywalker (like how us fans always imagined kylo ren should be, powerful and scary). Snoke is the ANTI-YODA!!!!!!!


    Yoda lines in this story is this

    "We are what they grow beyond, as is the burden of all masters"


    But snoke was different, he sees his student as his puppet and new body, whereas Yoda embraces the new generation, snoke wants to be eternal, seeking eternal life.

    "I CANNOT BE BETRAYED, I CANNOT BE BEATEN"!!!


    Snoke doesn't want to be obsolete...he wants to rule forever while Luke and Yoda want the new generation to flourish.


    But kylo ren wants to surpass vader, he learned of the truth that rey has heard and he knows what he wants. He heard over the bond he has with rey what snoke really wants and decides to manipulate rey as he did in the final film


    He kills snoke shot for shot the same.


    And the themes of the last jedi are strengthened.


    The last remnants of the sith (snoke) and jedi(Luke) are killed off. One making peace with his legacy (Luke skywalker) and one desperately seeking to reclaim his glory days(snoke).


    Leaving the new dark side (kylo) and the new light(rey) to dominate the future. Snoke fails and is killed just like in the movie, unable to possess kylo ren he dies.


    Darkness rises and the light to meet it


    It also ticks a lot of box's for fans as well as answers most of our questions.


    It also throws a bone on legends fans who are in a uproar over the Canon
     
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  2. Mosley909

    Mosley909 Rebel Official

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    I think if they had done something like this it would of helped the film. I know a lot of people think that becuase they didn't explain the Emperors back story in the Original Trilogy so they don't need to explain Snokes in this one. I personally disagree as i feel we know the galaxy more then we did back the the original trilogy came out. we've got 40 years worth of stories based in this world, we've seen and read about the Empire been defeated. So when you suddenly have this really old looking guy, who seems to be almost ridiculously strong in the force, and is in charge of something that looks exactly like the Empire. People are naturally going to go who was he? where has he been for all these other films if he is this strong and can pull together this kind of army. If they then kill him off without even hinting at an answer on screen its bound to leave people going huh?

    Also as well as been more satisfying i also think it would improve the story as the last Jedi as a film. One of my biggest complaints about the last jedi is it has now set up Kylo Ren to be this Trilogies big bad or main villain that our heroes have to defeat. The problem is they spent most of the first 2 films making him look conflicted not such a bad guy really. They make him look a bit weak, he's defeated by Rey and is even told by Snoke he's weak. Also they have made him very partial to a childs temper tantrum. Over all he hasn't felt that threatening. So having him kill some one with such a powerful back story would have helped make him feel more of a threat then killing some one who now just feels like he was their as a plot device.

    It was also answer further questions raised by the film, Snoke says Rey is the light rising up to meet his dark, well if the force works like that whose the light rising up to beat Snokes Dark, we know its not luke as Snoke says he thought he was their to defeat Kylo, plus Snoke seems to be incredibly old and so would predate Luke. So if you have him been the first Jedi and the first Sith their is a kind of balance their already.

    Of course they could still do something like your idea in episode 9, having Luke tell Rey this as a force ghost, but i don't think it will be as powerful as doing it before Snokes death.
     
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  3. greenbalrog

    greenbalrog Rebel Official

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    This would make sense to me. Snoke is way too keen in killing Luke, in TFA and now in TLJ even after realizing that Rey is in fact the light opposite of Kylo, and not Luke, as he said to have thought and admited was wrong about it.

    Even so, Snoke wishes the death of Luke way too much, even after discovering that Rey is the light resurgence and after he learns that Luke wishes to die himself. It feels like old hatred to me, just like he's a Sith, or the Prime Jedi as the OP suggests and wants to avenge himself. Even in TFA, all that matters to Snoke is to get rid of Luke, while the Resistance and the Republic seem to be just side distractions to him.

    So, I feel there is more to Snoke's real intentions in wanting to kill Luke, and all the Jedi for that matter, than meets the eye. It seems personal. At least that's how I feel about it, after watching TFA and especially now after TLJ. There's just way too much hate in him towards the Jedi without a clear explanation of why. Will we find out? Do we really need to know? I guess it'll be up to JJ to decide now.
     
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  4. BobaFettNY21

    BobaFettNY21 Force Attuned

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    He's dead.
     
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  5. John Boberg

    John Boberg Rebel Commander

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    I like it. If executed properly it wouldn't even have to be that confusing for casual viewers, and would give a satisfying feeling to the ST as part of the whole story.

    I would personally prefer him to come back in some form, revealing that he is Plagueis that can influence the midi-chlorians to preserve his life, and therefore "cannot be betrayed, cannot be beaten!". Revealing that he didn't teach his apprentice everything he knew, as Palpatine thought. This could open up an interesting story of how Kylo realises he has to fight Snoke to preserve his own position, but could still do so from a dark side perspective, while Rey fights him from the light side. It wouldn't necessarily need Kylo and Rey to team up, and could create an interesting dynamic of two conflicting sides battling each other while battling the greater evil at the same time, in my opinion. Though, it might get a bit confusing for casual audiences.

    Anyhow, I'm strongly on the side that Snokes backstory needs to be discussed, atleast somewhat to give us a few hints how he got into his position, and why he wasn't around during the original trilogy. I don't buy the idea that "the emperor's backstory wasn't given in the original trilogy", because that trilogy didn't need it as we had no idea what happened before it. It was left to our imagination. In this case, we have 7 movies before this trilogy and we know most of what happened, and Snoke was not there at all (as far as we know). It's far from the same.

    I would be fine with him being dead as well though, even if it wouldn't be my preferred story, it could be interesting. But there still needs to be some information brought up about him. I hope they do this in the movies and not in books, as even my sisters who are casual viewers were confused as to who he was and how he appeared into the story being so powerful. They wouldn't read any books about it, and would probably even be a bit turned of if being into Star Wars requires you to read books to get information vital to the movies story.
     
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  6. Bluemilk

    Bluemilk I AM the Senate

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    No. The point of Snoke was Kylo being manipulated by him for years and he finally frees himself and becomes what he's meant to be. Which is not some lackey #2 sidekick.

    They could've made him the jedi of all jedi's or the sithiest of all siths and Kylo still needed to dispose of him.
     
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  7. John Boberg

    John Boberg Rebel Commander

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    Even if that's the case, which would be fine by me, I still want to know how he got into his position. He's been told to be stronger than both Vader and the Emperor, and has seen the rise and fall of the republic. Where the hell has he been in the previous 2 trilogies with his powers? His scars and deformation just adds another layer as to why we're intrigued by his past.
     
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  8. Flyboy

    Flyboy Force Attuned

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    It's not a horrible idea. It might be something worth exploring in the future... but ultimately...
    This.

    We know all we need to know about Snoke to serve the story. A backstory of him being the first Jedi and the first Sith doesn't mean much for the present story. As Rian Johnson would say, "We're not trying to fill up a Wikipedia page here".

    Also, I can just imagine the reaction from Star Wars fans if Snoke was revealed to be the first Jedi AND the first Sith only to have him then be killed off minutes later. I don't think it would reduce the backlash AT ALL.
     
    #8 Flyboy, Jan 3, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2018
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  9. Darth Garth

    Darth Garth Rebel General

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    Filmmakers shouldn’t have to cater to fans; How would you like someone over your shoulder telling you exactly how to make a movie? Not a way to live. Take suggestions, yes. TLJ took some big risks, just a handful: Luke, Liea, Snoke, that’s it. Yet such outrage. The parentage thing has never been an issue to me.

    Submitting to fan outrage would be the worst thing Lucasfilm could do. The industry is a huge club that’s hard to get into; there are a thousand other talented people who would have made the great fan film most of the outraged fans would have liked, but Lucasfilm isn’t into making fan films after TFA; with TLJ, it’s pretty obvious.
     
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  10. Darth Basin The Greatest

    Darth Basin The Greatest Rebel Official

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    He's ded.......

    What r u? 1 of them blinded Disney Defenders?

    Snoke being the Prime Jedi sounds a f#€《 ton better then "Snoke is just Snoke".
     
    #10 Darth Basin The Greatest, Jan 3, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
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  11. BobaFettNY21

    BobaFettNY21 Force Attuned

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    Snoke is the guy that brings Ben Solo into the First Order and stokes his fears and anger, until ultimately, Ben Solo's anger and insecurities turn on Snoke and Ben Solo kills him to take command of the First Order.

    That's all that's important to Ben Solo, Rey, Finn, Hux, and the Resistance. Those are the topics of these films.

    My Disney check was already cashed. It consisted of a fun film with great themes and messages to convey. That's the point, by it's creator: “I shouldn’t be saying this now, and I shouldn’t have said it then, but it’s a film for 12-year olds…It was designed to be a film with a mythology: This is what we stand for, you’re about to enter the real world, you’re probably scared, here’s what you should pay attention to…living on the light side, avoiding the dark side. Those are the things that it was meant to do.”

    TLJ does that. It doesn't have to give some sort of lengthy explanation about what genetic material Snoke is made from, or whether he's carbon-based or silicon, or his age, how he wakes up in the morning, and whether he prefers milk or sugar in his caf.

    Evil exists. Avoid it. Make the right choices. Snoke is evil. Kylo Ren doesn't avoid him. And ends up killing him and becoming him, despite his hatred. Kylo is now the F.O. leader. Anything else is the annoying parsley on the side, or the Bay leaf everybody throws away. Go examine it if that's what you're obsessed about, but it's job is done. The meal is served. Eat it or complain up the chain from the server, manager, line cook, head chef, corporate, the bank that financed the restaurant, the guy that killed the chicken, the chicken that birthed the egg, the eggshell itself.....but the majority of us will be enjoying dessert and a nightcap discussing what we learned.
     
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  12. John Boberg

    John Boberg Rebel Commander

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    Star Wars is now becomming a huge cinematic universe, with films, books, series and comics all over the place. This is no longer a single trilogy, nor is it a single story about the rise and fall of Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader. I have no problem with new characters popping up without any extensive backstory, but possibly the most powerful force-user we've ever seen (only rivaled by Luke as Snoke has been said to be more powerful than both Vader & Palpatine), that has apparently been around since the first movie as he has seen the rise and fall of the republic, just pops out of nowhere. In my opinion, that feels quite weird.

    But each to their own, I don't mean to trash someone elses opinion. To me it just takes me out of the immersion a bit, when too drastic things happen without any explanation. To me, there wouldn't even need to be much of an explanation, just a few hints or sentences thrown out that could hint on how things got to where we are regarding Snoke.

    What I'm saying is that in a story where you have an open timeline beforehand (no sequels), I have no problem with characters being in powerful positions without further backstory, as that leaves it to the imagination. But in this case it just leaves questions as to why he hasn't even been mentioned in earlier movies.
     
    #12 John Boberg, Jan 3, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
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  13. zazeron

    zazeron Rebelscum

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    snoke will still be dead....he will just die a more well defined character with motivations that are the opposite yet similar to luke...luke wants to die and end the jedi legacy, while snoke wants to destroy the jedi legacy as welll but wants to reclaim his glory days as god-king of the galaxy. snoke is killed and forgotten, while luke dies having made peace with his legacy and is made into a new legend
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 3, 2018, Original Post Date: Jan 3, 2018 ---
    agree....kylo ren runs circles around snoke as a character....but i want to improve a already good twist and make it great with snoke backstory
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 3, 2018 ---
    snoke connects pretty well to all 3 trilogies as the prime jedi and father of the sith...my backstory merely strengthens the "let the past die" theme as well as set up a old republic movie
     
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  14. Bendak Starkiller

    Bendak Starkiller Force Sensitive

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    This might be a good idea for a book or comic down the road if Disney went with it.
     
    #14 Bendak Starkiller, Jan 3, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  15. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    This doesn't really reduce any of the backlash tbh.
    Maybe a very small amount but not enough to change it.

    And tbh, none of the backlash seems significant enough to change anything
     
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  16. zazeron

    zazeron Rebelscum

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    nope....the damage to Snoke as a character is done. TLJ was a do or die movie for Snoke. The next best thing is to recycle these ideas for a original villian who was the prime jedi who comes back. maybe this prime jedi will be the villain of a old republic TV series, replacing TRUE sith that kreia mentions with the prime jedi who has become evil. revans entire life covered in 5 seasons.

    the tv series will reuse the original trilogy style of matte paintings, puppets, models to create the best looking show on television. the showrunner will be someone with a high degree...maybe the duffer brothers, a showrunner who will surpass the movies in terms of complexity of storytelling and quality
     
  17. Bendak Starkiller

    Bendak Starkiller Force Sensitive

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    So you don't want any backstory for Snoke at all?
     
  18. Pastor Barndog

    Pastor Barndog Force Attuned

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    1st let me say that could have been an good possibility or something like it.

    I figured that Snoke was likely some sort of undead Sith entity like Exar Kun who possessed students at the Jedi temple in the books after Jedi that are no longer Cannon. Or when they wanted to give Exar Khun a backstory, he met an ancient Sith who was undead or trapped and taught him the darkside. Khun betrayed him and fought the Jedi.

    That said. It became seriously plausible to me from even before TFA that Kylo was the real Big Bad. He is the reason the happily ever after in the fairy tale galaxy was broken. The princess and pirate were no longer happy and he destroyed Luke's temple throwing into question whether the Jedi would go on.


    First of conflicted villains are simply complex and multi-dimensional. Showing him as less than a monster is a good thing. ESB showed Vader not as just a monster but as Luke's father. Second his conflict or "pull to the light" did not stop him from ordering the murder of a village, patricide, it did not spur him to save his mother and when he was handed the opportunity to be forgiven he instead used the opportunity to put himself on the throne of the galaxy.

    He's like Emperor Comodus in Gladiator. They knew they could never pull off another Vader.
     
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  19. Benjamin Lewis

    Benjamin Lewis Rebel Official

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    Did ROTJ need an extensive dialogue exposition scene about the life story of the Emperor?

    No.
     
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  20. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Bu...buuuuut......waaaaa
     
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