Rules within the SW universe.

Ok, let's walk this through... what establishes "the form"?

 

This statement seems completely counter-intuitive; especially as it applies to film. For one, we didn't create these rules; the franchise established them over the course of multiple movies and decades. If what you are suggesting were so, if we don't need explanation for change: why bother developing ANYTHING at all? For example: why show Luke get any training? Why not just show him as a young initiate at one point and later on as a competent Force User with no training? The change doesn't require an explanation, it's simply the obligation of the audience to trust there was some logical sequence of events that explains it, and not the obligation of the story teller, to actually tell the story.

 

The force does whatever it likes.

Why not. Why are there even characters in this universe. Its the force. No worries. It gives powers to users for whatever, whenever it likes. Trust Rian Johnson, he knows what is best.

 

You are over thinking this. To be honest, the majority of the questions raised here are due to over thinking.

The Universe's established rules don't end, they evolve. When do we say, no more changes to the force, no more powers, no more displays of power greater than a previous force user? When do we say something is breaking established rules when the rules have been evolving since the first movie. Does the ST have to adhere to prior movies?

Rey outshining Palpatine is a matter of Point of View. Personally I believe Palpatines feat is much more impressive. The thing is, you are assuming that this is Palpatines limit because it's the most powerful you've seen him. This is not the limit, this is simply what made sense in the confines of the story being told. Maybe those rocks were Rey's "max". Maybe Palpatine could have exploded the whole building if he wanted, we don't know because it's not necessary to know and it doesn't fit the story.

 

But he didn't. Anakin isn't a paragon character, so it's not surprising that he didn't do it.

 

You keep throwing out Yoda is a Paragon character. That he is somehow the benchmark. Sorry dude, but he's not.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 4, 2018, Original Post Date: Jan 4, 2018 ---

You're just not understanding that a characters maximum display of power is dictated by the circumstances in the story. I'm not going to keep going around in circles. You seem to think Rey's rock lifting is the most powerful force display in the history of the Star Wars Universe. Keep believing that, don't see others perspectives. I certainly do not understand yours.

 

OBI-WAN : Strange. The transmission seems to be in good order, but the
reading's off the chart...over twenty thousand.
QUI-GON : (almost to himself) That's it then.
OBI-WAN : Even Master Yoda doesn't have a midi-chlorian count that high!
QUI-GON : No Jedi has.

If you'd spend as much time
working on your saber skills as
you do on your wit, young Padawan,
you would rival Master Yoda as a
swordsman.

 

I personally share a lot of KotoR II writer Chris Avellone's apprehensions about the Star Wars universe and about The Force. On the one hand I can understand the need for a strong moral compass in story telling, I really do, but on the other hand a lot of the so called "good guys" cough jedi order cough, have beliefs and feelings about The Force, politics and strategies that not every 'good person' might agrees with. To use a parallel from KoToR II the Jedi Order just sit their like idiots waiting to be consumed by Nihilus and are dicks to the exile. To use a more canonical example where in TLJ (ive only seen it once so correct me if I'm wrong) Luke says the Jedi Order paved the way for Darth Sidous to rise to power. So those are my thoughts feel free to think of them as you will.

 

I loved how KOTOR 2 made you think in such ways. Unfortunately for SW to survive you cannot implement them in the SW universe.

For example... Kreia, that was her name right? She makes an example to the exile in doing good to someone, a greater evil fell upon him. So the exile gives the guy the crdits he needs then he gets hurt by someone wanting those credits. She makes a point if he had not given those credits in the first place that would not have happened.

The problem with this thought process is, do you stop doing good because there is a chance of evil? Furthermore, if everyone did good would evil even exist? It wouldn't.

You shouldn't stop doing good because evil can take advantage, rather you should keep doing good to stamp out evil. For good will pass on, but yes evil may be there to meet it. That doesn't mean you did anything wrong, it is just how it is. You shouldn't stop doing good, even because of unforseen circumstances.

 

An honest question for people arguing there should be no limits to what the force can do: is there really nothing that could be done that would make you say "woah. That's a little too over the top"?

Would a force user flying be ok?

Would force fire be a bridge too far?

Force laser beams?

Force time travel (not visions, actual time travel)?

Force insta kill?

 

I think you might have a blindspot on this one. Now I know no one follows each and every post another poster makes, but I have consistently said that things can evolve. My point of contention isn't that things can't change in the SW universe. I have specifically spoken to the de facto evolution displayed in the vehicles and equipment in SW. What I am saying is that, once the writers have established the realm in which we're operating and the rules that apply to it, once they introduce something that is outside of those parameters, THEY have an obligation to provide a plausible and logical explanation. Honestly so many of the gripes about TLJ stem from this.

 

Again, like I've written before, it's all about your suspension of disbelief. I think arguing that Rey going "a bridge too far" with what we've seen may be a bit of a slippery slope fallacy.

After all, the Force is constantly being redefined. Did you claim that Palpatine's force lightening was also "a bridge too far" when you saw ROTJ?

Plus, if you're a fan of Legends, you've seen the Force do far more insane stuff than let a girl life an armfull of salt. Stuff like Palpatine literally creating wormholes through time and space with the force.

 

The jedi order of the prequels was decadent, they were completely misguided and dogmatic, instead of guardians of peace and justice they had become generals in a pointless war. Luke and Qui-Gon before him had it right all along and were the strong moral compass in the story, those two were the good guys.
Kreia is a beautifully written character and there is much wisdom in many things she says, but that is just part of her deception to lure you into her own agenda.

Exactly, I think this is strongly related to the "end never justifies the means" situation. A person should only judge his actions based on the morality of the act itself, it is impossible to predict or understand the causality of the unforeseen posterior events.

 

I don't think people's issue with Rey lifting the rocks stems from a belief that the rocks were simply too heavy to be lifted with the force. I think it's more the fact that she was able to do it with little to no training when training to use the force has been such a big part of Star Wars to this point.

I also think people base what they see done with the force on who they see doing it. Palpatine was Vader's master & we had seen Vader choke people & block blaster shots with his hand with the force. So it stands to reason that his master would be able to do even greater things with the force. That's why people don't have an issue with Luke being able to force project even though we haven't seen that before...because he's Luke f'n Skywalker. I am actually ok with Rey being able to do the things she's been able to do...I just need a better reason than "darkness rises & light to meet it" as to why

 

I profoundly but respectfully disagree. There is no logical reason you cannot apply it to the SW universe, it is applicable especially to the prequel era. There is so much inspiration from Legends in the canon especially in Dave Filoni's work. The Jedi masters were clearly bigoted toward the exile because he was a wound.

 

Which would be a fantastic example of the hubris of the Jedi...
Worried about midichlorians and stuff like that and being as good as Master Yoda etc

 

Ok, I see your point. I guess in a facet it can be applied, but should it? I mean by this logic, I see a conundrum of endless possibilities.

What if by causing evil, for example, good results? Lets say you take food from someone, and then a generous person comes along and gives them back what was taken plus more? Would not good have come from the evil? Sure.

I guess it can be applied, but what a difficult path to take. You see the end results are so numerous and so varied. We could say the Old Republic was necessary for the Empire, and therefor necessary for the New Republic to exist (assuming it is a better version). So in essence we can say the Old Republic and Empire was both good, because it gave birth to the New Republic and new opportunities. Then we can go and say it is bad because Empire 2.0 comes after the New Republic.

Its complicated. So complicated that it calls into question everyday decisions as a moral dilemma. It's a never ending circular arguement, which is why IMO it should not be applied to SW.

"It's time for the Jedi to end"? Really? So we blame the Jedi for the rise of Palpatine? What if there were no Jedi? Do we assume Palpatine would not have still sought power? Do we assume he would have been stopped permanently because a Jedi Order did not exist?

The problem with this thinking is it opens an avenue for endless possibilities, endless cycles. From A-Z the path can go. It is also subjective reasoning. Can Luke PROVE the Jedi were so obviously flawed they are to blame for evil? No, he cannot. Nor can we disprove it.

It is a catch 22 scenario where we end up scratching our own heads with our brains exploding from information overload. This is why I say this should not be included. George Lucas made it simple, light and dark. This is gray.

Because it is so subjective we end up in depths of waters that transcend basic good/evil.

That is why I will quote Qui Gonn "Focus on the here and now. Be mindful of the future but not at the expense of the present."

Furthermore, if good/evil is blurred, where does that leave us? The world united against Hitler. Do we say Hitler was good for uniting the world? Did he not still need to be stopped?

I hope you can see where this line of thinking goes and why IMO it should not be in SW.

I believe Qui Gonn to be right, focus on the here and now, do the good you can do, and leave the rest to the Force.