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Rules within the SW universe.

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Sparafucile, Jan 3, 2018.

  1. Aglarion

    Aglarion Force Sensitive

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    Hmm I agree that the jedi order was full of hubris but I don't see how those quotes have anything to do with it.
     
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  2. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    It comes down to this.

    Party A does not need, or does not want an explanation to Rey's powers. They seem offended that anyone should feel they need one. They think one isn't necessary, writers can do what they want.

    Party B needs an explanation to Rey's power, skill and or technique. Whether bloodline (which now seems ruled out) or by an other means (previous training, unmentioned mentor, her being an experiment, or a clone, something... anything). Forty years of canon should be respected.

    Episode 9 might provide something, I don't think we're done with Rey's parents yet, but I can't say exactly what they intend either.

    So now all we have is "light meets dark". An ambiguous statement that can cover a whole lot of ground. I do feel there's some grey area in between both Party A and B that by the end of 9 we can all be satisfied.
     
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  3. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    "I've seen this raw power only once before..."

    Clearly, Luke sees something incredibly powerful in Rey. We can't say for certain that the Jedi of the Republic would have been as impressed, but we do know that their dogmatic ways (ironically similar to the dogmatic and rigid approach that one side is trying to take in this conversation) was eventually their downfall, even evidently negatively effecting how they could use the Force. Rey is free of that, so that's at least one point in her court.

    Though I'd love an explanation in the third act of this trilogy of a bit on how she got that "raw power".

    I think your analysis of the stalemate nature of this discussion is pretty spot on, though. Not to start anything (seriously, this is only an allegory) but it's not dissimilar to some religious debates online- one side trying to have a discussion that holds the topic to the standards of reason and science while the other thinks that the mysticism of the topic itself is outside of those realms. If you cannot even agree on which field to fight, the battle can't even actually begin.


    Okay, so again I ask- what are the rules being broken in this scene?
     
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  4. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Because they were concerned about their midichlorian tests and the sword training rather than actual things that make them "good"
    As Luke said, they don't "own the force" but when you worry about things like midichlorians and training as much as Master Yoda, you are self indulging in things that make you special rather than doing good. Which was their eventual downfall.
     
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  5. BobaFettNY21

    BobaFettNY21 Force Attuned

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    About a decade of fan arguments justifying the blindness of a bunch of Jedi Masters existing right as the galaxy falls into a galactic civil war and even doubts when Anakin directly tells Mace Windu that Palpatine is a Sith Lord after Obi-Wan learns that from Dooku years earlier that there's a Sith running things in the Senate. Then the great Jedi Master Yoda goes alone to confront this all-powerful Sith Lord instead of rounding up other Jedi to take him on? Instead of negotiating with political leaders like the one who saved him from Kashykk?

    I mean...it's the main impetus of Creator George Lucas' career. It's the motif behind the political set-up of each trilogy. Big organizations are often boneheaded. The Republic. The Jedi. The Empire. The New Republic.

    If anything, Luke addressing the rise of Sidious supports the PT in a way many fans reacted badly to: "How could the Jedi be so useless and stupid? What are midichlorians? Who needs this prophecy?"

    It's all brought together with a nice bow and reflective of a powerful motif in Star Wars since its inception. The character Rey now has a clean slate with some information to build on without being beholden to Obi-Wan or Yoda or the legacy of Luke Skywalker.
     
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  6. Aglarion

    Aglarion Force Sensitive

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    Yes I agree with most of what you said, not sure why you are telling me this?
    My point was that those particular quotes do not convey anything about jedi hubris in my opinion, except perhaps Anakin's.
    Nobody was obsessing about midichlorians, it's just seemed to be a routine medical check for everyone who joined the order.
    And Obi Wan's sermon to Anakin to practice useful skills instead of his wit seemed pretty sound to me. Despite all their decadence and dogmatic views the jedi did still value things like hard work, effort and dedication, virtues that sadly seem to be no longer important in the ST.
     
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  7. BobaFettNY21

    BobaFettNY21 Force Attuned

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    Things like hope?
    Things like learning from mistakes?
    Things like not living in the past?
    Not being selfish?
    Respect the chain of command...and follow orders?
    Not worshipping heroes?

    They're there in the ST.
     
  8. Aglarion

    Aglarion Force Sensitive

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    Hmm I have no idea of how this relates to what I was saying.
     
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  9. KesselRunner

    KesselRunner Rebel Official

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    In my only experience with SW tabletop gaming, I rolled a 20 on my very first attack, taking out the bad guy in one fell swoop. I didn't do anything against the rules, I just got very, very lucky. Now, in the OT, we're told that luck doesn't have anything to do with the Force, but that people like Han Solo did believe in luck. "Smuggler's Luck" is something Han Solo has always been depicted as having (though eventually, it seems to have failed him). So, for the sake of argument, let's say that "luck" is a thing separate from the Force that either helps or hinders people completely randomly. Could it be that Rey and her abilities are the product of luck as well as the Force? Having been mentored by both Han and Luke, could Rey be the first Lucky Jedi? Something to think about, anyway. ;)
     
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  10. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    I agree with the portion regarding your reply to my post. It's the old adage, that if you have faith (in this case in the writing team, creative minds) you don't need proof, but you don't, no proof will do (unless you see something so good or real you can't deny it, like Thomas upon Jesus's return... since Biblical references have been often made here lol).

    As for BobRoss, I'll try to explain in my way what I think and what I gather his meaning is.

    Rey with a backstory to why she can do the things she is doing could go a long way to having some fans get back on board. From the exposition we have of Rey so far, she's a nobody. Which is fine. The Force, although this isn't fact yet but somewhere between a loose suggestion by a villain and extrapolated fan theory, has chosen her as a conduit which makes her more powerful than the average Jedi. I think most of us could get on board with that too. The degree of that power is still somewhat in question, but lets just say the top 1% of Jedi's, top 10% at absolute worse based on what we've seen.

    So the issue tends to always go back to how does she know to do what she is doing? Some of the explanations are very creative and could work, but as of now are fan theory. As fans, some of us need to hear it within the context of the movie. The issue is not just levitating rocks, but that's the most easily comparable one from the previous trilogies, which is why it is being used the most.

    Put in another way, if her power is on par with Anakin's, then with training she could do what she is doing. If she is taught how. Because even Anakin needed training. If the Force is somehow telling her how to do it, then that should have been demonstrated in the movie somehow (a Force voice instructing her or something). She has visions with the lightsaber and stuff, but it seemed to be telling her of events, I don't recall anything referring to techniques. I mean, even a flashback showing the Jedi of past doing a bunch of Force powers could be argued as the Force essentially downloading information into its vessel. But we're not getting that.

    So what we have is Rey, a powerful force user for reasons ambiguous (light meets dark). If fan theories are correct, I can accept that (even if it makes events in the OT and PT kind of odd, we're not privy to every force user or the Force's method of scaling dark and light). I just feel I need to know where she's getting her information. Maybe they aren't breaking or bending any canon rules, but without exposition, I think it's fair game to question if they are. Force Users need to train, if there's canon being broken it's that. Though SW never implicitly says you HAVE to train, it is heavily implied by both Yoda and Vader that training is needed to focus raw power. Raw power alone isn't enough.

    Vader to Luke. "The force is with you young Skywalker, but you are not a Jedi yet." implying that training to become a Jedi is what makes a force user more effective, until then it's just a bunch of raw power, but without a method to focus that power. In other words she's a powerful engine without a vehicle. The vehicle is her training, which allows her to do stuff, until then she can make some loud noise, generate some heat, but she isn't moving much other than her inner components until she's received some training.

    Had she used Mind trick in TLJ after meeting Luke, I could have accepted that. It's quite possible that mind trick is a very easy skill to master. Knitting isn't very difficult, or weaving, but until you are taught how, it'll likely elude you until you get some instruction. Her power isn't the biggest question (though throwing a line or two to fans could help), it's her ability to use that power in intricate and insightful ways. Yes, someone had to invent weaving and knitting, but somehow I don't think it was done within 30 seconds.

    All of this can be easily remedied in Ep9. Maybe the 70% don't need it (I think a portion would appreciate it, a portion would be annoyed it had to be included, but to most it would just be affirmation of something they already took for granted, which is fine), but considering it wouldn't take a minute to explain things to satisfy the other 30% (or a huge chunk of it) I think it's something they should consider doing. It would certainly be a better use of time that Finn's side mission.

    So in short, affirmation of the source or reason for her power (from a source other than Snoke, who obviously didn't have the best insightful force skills), and where she's getting her knowledge of skills or techniques.

    If not for the 6 movies in the PT and OT, plus books, cartoons and games, it wouldn't be needed, but that isn't the reality in which these movies are being written. Fans want a LOTR and the writers to do their due diligence, not take the quick in easy path that creates fear and anger. :)
     
    #130 Sparafucile, Jan 6, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 6, 2018
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  11. ralfy

    ralfy Clone Commander

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    They can probably follow Campbell's views while emphasizing the nature and complexity of the idea of a force and Jediism, as the latter is a vital characteristic of the SW universe.
     
  12. Darnziak

    Darnziak Clone

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    I have a question about the Last Jedi. Something that bothered me the last time I saw it.

    The ships needs fuel to advance in space? If they run out of fuel, they stop?

    I know that physics in the Star Wars universe is different from reality, but in space there is no friction, the ships shouldn't need fuel to propel themselves once they have a certain speed. Nothing would stop them.
    Or are they constantly accelerating? It's not clear to me.
     
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  13. Pawek_13

    Pawek_13 Jedi General

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    It seems like engines are always on in SW spaceships, even if they're in vacuum of space, so the space in SW is not a vacuum? I mean I don't know, it's not like physics have ever made any kind of sense in Star Wars.
     
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  14. clustercosmos

    clustercosmos Rebelscum

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    I found this problematic as well. I suppose there would be gravitational friction as well, there was a planet nearby, and the star in that system would also exert a pull. It could be that this kept slowing them down. Feels like grasping at straws though, not obvious the effect should be as pronounced as we see.
     
  15. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    I always viewed space in SW similar to planes in our atmosphere, there’s weight, there’s gravity, etc. The dynamics seem similar, except the background is space.
     
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  16. Pawek_13

    Pawek_13 Jedi General

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    Also, another thing - the ships in Star Wars have a lot of electrical systems that need energy and since solar panels are no use in interstellar space and hyperspace they need to run the engines to produce elctricity. Still, that's looking for in-universe sense for how space in a universe where space has never made sense.
     
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  17. Aglarion

    Aglarion Force Sensitive

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    Based on the star wars flight simulator games, physics behave a little different than in reality, acceleration and inertia seemed non-existent.
    Every fighter or ship had a top speed and would lose all speed if you cut the engines.
    However, the whole fleet chase seems heavily contrived, the premise seems to be that the Resistance fleet can not get away and the FO fleet can not catch up either.
    This doesn't make much sense to me, either the Resistance fleet is faster and they can get away or it's slower and the FO should be able to catch up. It is implied that somehow both fleets have the same speed also ignoring the fact that both fleets have many different kinds of ships which probably should have different speeds as well...
     
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  18. Darnziak

    Darnziak Clone

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    Thanks for your answers, while searching I found this :
    https://www.quora.com/In-Star-Wars-...h-space-because-of-the-lack-of-air-resistance

    There are reasonable answers to my question there. If they are constantly accelerating, it seems to make sense. Or at least, enough for me. Also, while reading the thread I remembered playing Tie-Fighter on PC a long time ago (more than 20 years!) and I remember how it was.
     
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  19. Sparafucile

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    SW has never been big on explaining sciency stuff, unlike Star Trek. Space travel has always just been a means to tell a fantasy that happens to take place in space. Because of the lack of hard rules, we have what we have in TLJ. There's nothing wrong with that, essentially, since the writers take for granted that the readers just understand that it works. Though many of us know very well how our cars work, many don't, but you don't see writers go into the complexity of how a car functions to explain how one character from a soap opera goes to another home. It's taken for granted.

    The problem with what RJ did by putting space travel into the spotlight is that it now created a question as to why. It was easy before to just ignore it because it was rarely a major plot point, but in TLJ it became a major plot point of one of the story lines it expected the fan base to believe. TLJ begs us to ask why and how and I'm not sure but I don't think RJ is ready to answer those questions, he wants us to just accept the highly unlikely event that these space ships, just like cars, just stop after running out of fuel.

    Any explanation on here will be fan head canon. It's possible it's a safety feature on space ships that once they are about to run out of fuel they reverse thrust at the end to stop them, since otherwise they could eventually collide into a star, a super nova and that would end their trip real quick. Otherwise the physics works differently, which I hope that's not what they go on as an official explanation in some book.

    As for different ships having different speeds, maybe fleets operate differently travelling through space, using tractor beams to keep everyone together, although that's implying that ships will not lose momentum and just keep drifting at the speed the faster ship with the tractor beam is pulling them. At some point it's anyones guess. Someone will tackle it in a book down the line, but for now we're expected to suspend our disbelief for this too.

    As for them both travelling at the same speed, maybe one is slightly faster than the other, but we are talking astronomical numbers here, so maybe they drift apart in say a few months or years or decades, but those time lines are so irrelevant to the story that it isn't bothered to come up inside the discussion of TLJ.
     
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  20. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    If you ask yourself how or why in this Universe you’ll get a major headache. I honestly don’t want to know, otherwise it’s no longer escapism.
     
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