SPECULATION Sabine Predictions

That marketing approach ended up pissing off more people than not. It's one thing to be disingenuous if you're trying to market a trash film for a big opening weekend----but Star Wars??!? It's cheap and low class.

You'd think the Powers-that-Be would be smart enough to learn from their past mistakes.

 

Here's the thing. I don't believe that Filoni is falling into a similar trap, mostly because he seems to have The Goods. This story and the ability to do it have been rattling around his head for a long time. In a way, every little tip, trick and skill he has picked up from "hanging out" on-set with Rian J, to the VIP Master Class in production he has been through with Favreau and so many others, those have all been building toward THIS. I would say that he is far more likely to have over-thought using mis-directs, fake-outs, etc... than to just put one out without concern. He wants us to speculate. He wants us excited and just a little confused going into this.

As far as the Finn comparison. I wasn't part of this or any online SW community then, but I was around and I remember the backlash. Hell, it's still palpable. So here is some hope... It's a pretty common speculation that Jon and Dave are working on smoothing out and making more sense of the ST through the Mandoverse, similar to what The Clone Wars did for the PT. Maybe this whole Sabine/Force Sensitivity thing is opening the door to repairing the way that Finn's abilities were mishandled. That wouldn't be a hard fix at all. As far as the story goes, it is really just a matter of what wasn't or hasn't been properly addressed yet. In many ways, it's not hard to draw comparison between Sabine and Finn and this could very well lay the groundwork for a future story where Finn comes into his FS. Ahsoka and Sabine's story would set a precedent and solidify the case for Rey and Finn.

 

You're going have to clarify what "The Goods" are to me. If it's teasing something that's a misdirection, then yeah, I don't think that'll be the case but for a different reason. Marketing now as a whole, instead of leaning towards misdirection, has leaned into being far vaguer over the past roughly 7 years or so. It protects the studio and project from the backlash that releasing something that fans will feel left a false impression based on trailers.

Oh, I don't think the misdirections in marketing are ever done without concern. It's clearly an image that the directs are aiming for. But I also am not sure it's in Filoni's hands. There's a whole Market and Advertising team at Disney, and I'd be surprised if Lucasfilm doesn't have their own. Filoni may be able to say "don't use these scenes but create this vibe," but that may end up being disingenuous to the story all the same, and he may have nothing to do with it. I hope this is not the case as I would like to leave this experience without feeling misled, but that is not a guarantee.

It's possible, but I'd find that to be a weird way to handle it, personally. I think the best way to handle Finn's abilities and FS nature is...to handle it. Lucasfilm fumbled big time with the ST (world-building and character-wise, not financially or commercially), and at some point they need to address it. The best way to do so IMO is to move forward, handle the uncomfortable stories done, and make them work for you in future stories, not go back to time where our heroes are all alive and still write little-to-no stories about them all interacting with each other. The Mandalorian could have made just as much sense after TROS as it does after ROTJ. (Just change Luke's character to Rey and Finn, and trade out Ahsoka for Ezra or someone else who survived the OT.) But that's just me.

Then they should just do it. We don't always need poetry or comparisons. Just handle the situation. If they don't, they Finn and Rey may be hit with the "we've seen this before, now it's boring" critique. (Deserved or not.)

 

As a fan of The Mandolorian and Andor, I read comments like this and smile remembering all the criticisms about "Where are the lightsaber battles?" Evidently this is another one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't.

If it's under a different context than Ahsoka's last TV trailer, then I call that a serious misdirect. (BTW) that was one SUPER trailer----it gave me chills.

 

I mean... Ok... What I am saying- The Goods, I believe, as I expounded, Dave Filoni has put his time into this project and it is even more of a labor of love for him. The Goods represent a well-told, well-fitting story that accomplishes everything the team wanted AND will fulfill the wants of (most) the most hardcore fans, AND be entertaining to a new or more casual audience.

I just have a hard time believing that after all he has done to make this series that he would not have final cut of the teasers and trailers. Based on what you say here, we have no reason to fear a careless misrepresentation anyway, so either way we should be ok.

Again, I would say it is in his hands. Or at least it was put into the hands of editors that he trusts. We may never know for sure, but it wouldn't surprise me if Mr. Filoni's hands are not in more creative decisions overall at Lucasfilm than we have any idea of. At least I want to believe this.

That's exactly what I am saying. There isn't any skillful maneuver needed to reach that point. ALL of the noise surrounding the Finn issue happened in this world, not the story. However, this Sabine/FS issue could be a way to lay the groundwork for a more liberal view of the Force and how it relates to ALL beings. Especially after my recent rewatch of Rebels, I think Dave may have some broad and sweeping ideas surrounding the Force. I would love to see this start something that either directly or indirectly lends itself to the Lore around Rey and her new version of Jedi.

Yes! I could not agree more and I have taken this stand against the delusional babies that gripe about Rey in a new movie or insanely ponder about LFL erasing or "de-canonizing" the ST. Let's just "Jar Jar" this $h!t and move on with the story. There was nothing done anywhere in the ST that was so heinous that it can't be smoothed out with subsequent stories. I think we have already seen some of this "salve" already throughout The Mandalorian and Book of Boba Fett, and so naturally, it would continue in Ahsoka, Skeleton Crew...

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 6, 2023, Original Post Date: Aug 5, 2023 ---

I do agree with this. At least on the surface. I'm a big supporter of 'fewer Jedi make those Jedi much more mystical' idea. It also helps illustrate the gravity of Order 66.
But...

We have known this since we first heard of The Force, but we haven't really seen evidence. Maybe that's where the narrative surrounding The Force needs to go- to show that indeed it does flow through all living beings, binds us together... It could still very well be shown that Jedi-level mastery of the Force is rare.

THIS is where I truly believe this is headed. I think Sabine will be focused on trying to learn to use the Force as a Jedi would, but finds herself to be very inconsistent and unstable, too much to rely on the Force as opposed to her own wit, wisdom, and Mandalorian skill. I think, mayyybe, that Sabine could show that practicality anyone, with proper motivation, focus and training, could access the Force in some form. But even then it is incredibly difficult and far out of reach for the average being. There's no way at all that they will do anything to diminish or dilute the rarity of Jedi-level Force attunement.

 

Ah, gotcha. Thanks for sharing. I'm happy you have such faith in Filoni. I mostly believe in Filoni to have The Goods, but I find him to be a bit...out of touch with my personal tastes when the man has full control of things. To me, Filoni is best when balanced by another person. Ideally this would be Lucas himself, as I think some of the best work from both of them was done when they challenged each other and found equilibrium. When Filoni is by himself, we get Rebels. Rebels is by no means bad, and I enjoyed watching it a lot! However, Filoni plays into certain...tropes and mindsets that disservice the show. (Filoni can also be a little too attached to his favorite characters, which is a massive double-edged sword IMO.)

It's hard to hit one of those, let alone all three. Filoni's done it before, but it took time for each one IMO. TCW didn't start out as a masterpiece, but it grew into one in time. Rebels had shorter growing pains, but the show was also shorter as a whole, and YMMV on whether or not the highs of Rebels matched the highs of TCW. (The lows of TCW were so, so, SO much worse than the lows of Rebels though...)
And it wouldn't be the first time that a person who delivered on all three criteria fumbled the ball later on. (JJ Abrams I'm looking at you!)

My overall point here is that optimism and hope are fine, but we shouldn't let it guide our expectations.

The problem is that Finn doesn't need this. He's Force Sensitive. We don't need to skirt around it or reveal it in some big way. TROS did that already. The Lego special did that already. There's no groundwork needing to be built. We just need to see it.
And a little more pessimistically - why would the sweeping philosophy matter at this point in the timeline? We know how the story goes - Luke believes that the Jedi are the best hope for the galaxy, so he builds his school. Roughly 20 years from now, Kylo Ren burns it down, and the Jedi are lost once more. The First Order is clearly able to take Force Sensitive children, so it's not a mystery to what happened to them in the meantime. As for the rest? Well, the Force awakened from something, so maybe it was still healing after two generations of war, and so fewer FS children were born. It'd hardly be the first time a story went with the whole "the magic has disappeared and now it's returning" trope.
But that's my inner Star Wars cynic speaking, because as good of a story I think Dave and Co can tell, I don't think it's going to do anything groundbreaking at this time. Filoni still has to work in the confines of canon, which means that certain things can't happen as much as we'd like.

Anyways, I'm curious to see where the show goes, with the Force and with Sabine.

 

Well, I would continue with a back-and-forth debate on these ideas, but I feel like you have contradicted yourself better than I could on most...
A few things, though.

Seemed to fit the discussion.

And I guess this really sums it up. I totally, wholeheartedly, 100% hard disagree. Hope and Optimism are the very core of Star Wars. There is not a damn thing wrong with letting Hope and Optimism guide your expectations in ANYTHING, much less with something that we are intent to take joy and excitement from, like Star Wars.

 

THIS!!! ^^^^

You could make a strong case that the set-up for this (Star Wars Rebels) has led to the live-action Sabine that MBWilson has outlined. And IMHO, that's a really exciting character to watch! It will be a constant battle between her 'artistic/free spirit' side and the 'disciplined' side necessary to become a great Jedi.

 

I mean, I DO like TCW more than Rebels. I make no effort to hide it. But I also liked Rebels for what it was. It wasn't perfect and it's not above critique, and think it could have been more in all aspects, but that doesn't mean I don't like it. It really sounds like you're confusing my criticism with dislike, and I can assure you that's not the case. If I dislike something - if I REALLY dislike something - I wont' make much of an effort to hide it. (Ant-Man 3 and TROS if you need two direct examples.) Otherwise, I'm going to critique things. It's just who I am.
And not all great shows start great. Parks & Rec, one of the greatest modern comedies, didn't start off nearly as strong as it became. That first season was terrible! But between the push of Lucas and the pull of Filoni, it grew into something great. Rebels, being all Filoni with little-to-no counterbalance, didn't. He fell too far into tropes that didn't need to be explored as much, such as physical slapstick humor (although not to the degree that Resistance went), lack of solid character endings and use (Zeb had no purpose for half of the show other than to be the Big Guy) and refused to let the show truly make good on its promise of darker themes. (Ezra really didn't go dark, and his relationship with Maul was woefully underutilized.) Again, the show is good, but it could clearly to me be better.

I did on Finn, that's true, but not to the degree you think. In TFA Finn lived up to my expectations. (Outside of the whole bait-and-switch, and then subsequent demotion in later movies.) For future movies I had hoped Finn to be FS, but I wasn't staking my love for the character on it. It was theorizing in good fun. If he was, then great, I was correct! If he wasn't, so long as he had a good arc, then I'd be happy. The problem was that his arc in TLJ wasn't the best (I still firmly believe that he and Poe should have switched storylines) and that he didn't even have an arc in TROS.

As for Ahsoka, I'm lost on what I contradicted myself on. I clearly praised TCW and said Filoni could nail all three things you believe to be necessary for The Goods. I just noted that the context for him doing so was with a collaborator, something he doesn't really have (or trust others to be) when it comes to Ahsoka. I hope he hits all three, but I'm not going to expect it.

JJ Abrams himself confirmed it. John Boyega did as well, but that means less than the director of the movie (along with the person who closed out the trilogy).
https://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/202...isode-ix-meeting-with-trevorrow-and-more.html
https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/1...-rey-in-rise-of-skywalker-force-sensitive-poe
https://www.youtube.com/@lukefreedomchannel9481

Notes about the links: IGN and Reddit are using the same original source, which seems to be at least somewhat trustworthy enough to keep up. The YouTube channel has links to a Q&A. Idk if the confirmation from JJ is in one of the interview snippets as I don't have time to go through them all, but feel free to cross-reference them and let me know if it's not. I link our very own SWNN because I think that if it wasn't the case, then SWNN would be one of the very few websites to verify and confront such a falsification. That the website's writers, editors, and scoopers didn't leads me to believe that it's true.

EDIT: Taking out the Reddit link and adding an interview with Chris Terio aka the cowriter.
https://web.archive.org/web/2020070...ord-straight-perceived-last-jedi-jabs-1265168

Now, onto proof within the movie itself. While Finn never outright states "I can feel the Force," there are several things that happen in the movie that all but verify it.
(And now I have to go back and view clips from the movie for the first time since 2019...sigh...I'm not ready for this...)

On Pasana when Poe and Finn are waiting for Rey.

Of the pieces of evidence, this one holds the least amount of weight. Finn could be sensing Kylo, but it's more likely that Finn knows what Kylo means to Rey and is reacting to her reaction.

When the crew meets Jannah:

Finn's seeing the patterns of how The Force has worked in his life, and his belief in it gives us a glimpse into what he's feeling.

Later on between Finn and Poe:

To me, this is the second-biggest clue, in the subtext of the final few lines. (The final line is about the overt context, not the subtext.) Sure, overtly Finn and Poe are talking about Kylo Ren and the Sith, but we forget that Poe was the first major character we saw interact with Kylo Ren. The "what she's fighting" doesn't make sense in this scenario. Instead, if we look at the subtext through the lens of Poe asking if Finn's FS, then it makes a lot more sense, at least to me. It then reads as:

Later on, Finn figures out exactly which ship is the command ship in the Sith Empire's fleet:

This is clearly a call-back to Finn and Jannah's previous conversation, where he equated the feeling with The Force. So we've got The Force telling Finn exactly where he needs to be and Finn actively responding to it. (This is how we've seen many-a-newcomer first actively respond to The Force. They hear about it, actively or passively recognize it within their own lives, and then respond to it. Luke, Ezra, and Rey are the biggest examples.)

Finally, and most importantly to me, Finn is the first person to know that Rey died. He's on the Falcon but can clearly sense what's happening to her. The only other times we've seen this are in ROTS when Jedi sense Order 66 and the deaths of their comrades, Obi-Wan sensing the entire destruction of Alderaan, and Leia when Han was killed. In each instance, it was a Force Sensitive person feeling the death of another. That's not really a scene you can explain without Finn being Force Sensitive, at least to me.
So yeah, that's all the evidence in the movie.

Outside of TROS, we've got one semi-canonical piece of evidence and one non-canon piece of evidence. The semi-canonical piece is from The Rise of Skywalker novelization, which apparently openly states that Finn is FS. (I haven't read the book though, and I have no desire to do so.)
The non-canon piece is from the LEGO Star Wars Holiday Adventure.
The first scene is Rey teaching Finn exactly how Obi-Wan first trained Luke.

Sure, this isn't canonical, but I think it confirms at least some of what JJ intended and TROS implied.

 

Hope and Optimism are different than expectations. I can HOPE something is good. I can be OPTIMISTIC about it. But I can't put any EXPECTATIONS on it outside of what it promises, and even that is risky, as what one person perceives is a promise may not actually be what the product promised.

Star Wars absolutely has hope and optimism at its core. It was my major and I think only real gripe with Andor, that it didn't really have hope. (The hope will come, I know.) But expecting a show is going to be "great amazing the best thing ever!!!" can only lead to disappointment. You can hope it's great and amazing.

If it lives up to the hope, great! If it doesn't, there will always be something else, and there's usually at least one good thing in the series. But if you expect the sun and the stars and all the endless things in the night sky, don't be surprised if you can't even make it to the moon. Or in another context, speculation without expectation.

I can speculate that Sabine may be FS. I can hope that she's FS. I can be optimistic that all of the signs in the trailers are leading towards that. What I SHOULDN'T do is expect that.

In the case of this show, we both hope that this show is good if not great, or even better. We've both seen proof of that, despite differences on how we perceive certain pieces of media. We can be optimistic about the show, as we both are. We can both be incredibly excited about the show! But that's where I'm going to draw the line. I'm not going to expect anything from the show. I've been down that path before, here and everywhere else, and no thanks I've learned that lesson. The moment I let my hope and optimism guide my expectations is the moment I've started to count on the show to do something it never promised, which is meeting MY expectations on MY level.

 

I enjoy 90 % of the Star Wars stuff, I do, while nitpicking and making fun of some things...

But make up your mind Lucasfilm!
(Abrams) Are force sensitives running in powerful families? If so, I hope Sabine isn't a far descednat of Tarre Vizsla...
(Johnson) Can anyone be a force sensitive with some talent, because the force is part of everything? OK, Sabine is force sensitive but nobody noticed for years or it can be taught, kinda killing some mythos and mystery around it...
(Myself) Can anyone in Star Wars wield a lightsaber without being force sensitive or dissecting Tauntaun? Please!
note: Darksaber as Mandalorian weapon doesn't count.

 

No 'or' about it.

Sabine grew up as a highly talented -- but immature -- underachiever who is slowly coming around to embracing her potential.

 

I'm watching Rebels and noticed something. Here’s one for the Sabine is Force Sensitive column.

In the “Worlds Between Worlds” episode of Rebels s.4, when Ezra is in the WBW with Ahsoka, escaping from Palpatine, outside in the real world, Sabine joins up with Hera & Zeb after escaping the old scholar dude.

Hera asks Sabine: “What about Ezra?”
Sabine answers, while all of ‘em are on the run (i.e., easy to miss): “He’s coming” (or something like that). But the thing is… Sabine has no way of knowing that, since she can’t realistically know what Ezra is up to in the WBW. So, we’ve got one of three solutions.

1) The line was a ligit mistake;
2) Sabine is secretly Force Sensitive and can feel Ezra running homewards toward the WBW gate;
3) Sabine figured something out while studying the artwork that totally passed me by (like… the Mortis “Brother” would be the one to close the gate, and Ezra is the “Brother”, somehow? Idunno…)

 

I caught a few hints that at least could back up her being FS. In regards to the WBW, I took the Mortis Gods thing as pointing to needing to use the Light Side Sister to open the door and the Dark Side Brother was needed to close the door. Probably why Palpatine was trying to trick Ezra so he could gain access to the WBW since Ezra is/was able to use both sides.

 

Sabine is a Mando Jedi with train8ng limited force powers.

 

For me, this might be it, on the other hand, Sabine is a Mandalorian. Mandos undergo extensive training as seen in Mando season 3 at a very young age. Ahsoka, for me is just polishing up Sabine's training, Kanan also trained Sabine with the Darksaber, therefore, she doesn't have to be FS, she is a warrior nonetheless, Anakin put Ahsoka on some extensive training, so Ahsoka is doing the same with Sabine. Some students appreciate when a master puts one threw hell cause they know that they'll be able to face almost anything. Some people just ring the bell and give up...