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Snoke, Luke, Conflict & The Jedi.

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by master_shaitan, Nov 2, 2017.

  1. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    In the recent trailer, Snoke says (or he says at least part of it!) that:

    "Darkness rises...and light to meet it".
    This theme of light & dark is obviously prevalent throughout Star Wars, but has been given even greater focus in the ST. Alongside this, we have been lead to believe by Luke that "it is time for the Jedi to end". A comment that is as shocking as it is confusing - after all, didn't his pal Lor San Tekka say that there can be no balance without the Jedi?

    However, we have also been made well aware of Luke's current state of mind and his "loss of faith in the Force". Clearly, losing Ben to the Dark Side was a big knock for Luke and he doubts himself and his own connection to the Force. But we have long asked ourselves why he has exiled himself on Ahch-To, rather than rise up again and fight Snoke.

    I believe this line from the trailer explains this.

    Snoke's agenda, above anything else, is to create conflict. He says with glee, when "darkness rises", the "lights meets it". Compare this with Palpatine who was all about the darkness taking away the light. Snoke seems to revel in conflict - I suspect because in times of war, the Dark Side is at its strongest and old grand-canyon head needs the Dark Side to survive/regenerate.

    Now if we consider Luke's current state of mind as well as his new enemy in Snoke, it becomes apparent why he has exiled himself and believes the Jedi must end. For Luke knows that Snoke's agenda is to create conflict and that the brightest light casts the largest shadow. And as Luke's connection to the Force has been severed somewhat, his faith depleted (in it and himself), he simply thinks the Jedi must end to stop Snoke from being further empowered (which is especially more dangerous now he has Ben Solo by his side). So Luke likely thinks it better to leave it to his sister and the resistance to sort out - and that his/the Jedi's involvement will only make matters worse.

    But what Luke needs is a kick up the ar$e. Yes, the Jedi would further the conflict, but they're also the only ones who can truly end it. And Luke is the only one who can help "the new Jedi rise" and fight the forces of evil (as both LST and Maz Kanata suggested in TFA). This then also explains why the Force sent Rey to Luke (it doesn't explain Rey's power or origins). The will of the Force is for balance and without the Jedi there can be no balance. Therefore, the Force has intervened (as it did in ANH) to start a sequence of events that will lead the future Jedi (Rey) to Luke Skywalker. It is no coincidence that LST & the Falcon were on the same planet as Rey who then goes to Maz Kanata and finds Luke's saber - all pointing to what Maz realises is a destiny being built by the Force for Rey, so she can bring Luke home and become a Jedi.

    Again, this doesn't tell us who Rey really is or what happened in hers or Ben's past. It doesn't explain why she is so powerful, if indeed there is a reason for that. But it does explain Snoke's agenda, why Luke is in exile and what has to happen going forward.

    I'd speculate that TLJ will be as much about Luke regaining his faith in the Force as it will be about Rey discovering it and finding her place (in the struggle between light and dark).
     
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  2. Rufus2fist

    Rufus2fist Rebelscum

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    the more I see these trailers and watch the more I think Luke hid rey from himself. From her destiny. He knew she would turn dark, knew she would be the one that Snoke would want, he tried to run from the future. It destroyed him to know that Ben would be the next chosen, but that the good in him (though would kill one of his best friends) would Keep Ben alive....something along those lines. He was trying to save HIS family. I don't have it fully thought out but it is just a feeling. he knew if Rey and snoke were together that it would be worse for the entire galaxy...
     
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  3. LilyInTheSkywalker

    LilyInTheSkywalker Rebel Official

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    My theory is that the strength of Dark Side and the Light Side are directly proportional quantities. As you said, the brightest light casts the largest shadow. The stronger the Light Side is, the stronger the Dark Side will become.

    Because the Force strives for balance above all things.

    Anakin Skywalker fulfilled the prophecy and brought about balance by ending the reign of the Dark Side but Luke broke that balance again. He was supposed to be the Last Jedi but instead, when he trained a new generation of Jedi- the balance was tipped towards the Light Side, which meant that the Dark Side would rise again.

    Which it did- with Snoke.

    That's why Luke wants the Jedi to end. Because he thinks it will break the cycle. Except, he's wrong. Balance is only brought about by embracing the best of both the sides.

    "First comes the day
    Then comes the night.
    After the darkness
    Shines through the light.
    The difference, they say,
    Is only made right
    By the resolving of gray
    Through refined Jedi sight.
    "

    ―Journal of the Whills


    I think this quote from the Journal of the Whills will come to encapsulate the trilogy.

    That's why Kylo Ren is shown to struggle with Light Side. With Luke essentially taking himself out of the equation, the Force seeks to reassert that Balance through Kylo Ren and Rey.

    Kylo Ren has a natural affinity for the Dark Side - he embodies the Sith philosophy even though he isn't one.

    Peace is a lie. There is only Passion.
    Through Passion I gain Strength.
    Through Strength I gain Power.
    Through Power I gain Victory.
    Through Victory my chains are Broken.
    The Force shall free me.


    He's a passionate character, barely contained within his mask. He gets angry and rages out with no thought to self-control. He finds strength in his pain- both emotional and physical. He seeks Freedom.

    And yet, he's tempted by the Light.

    Rey, on the other hand, has a tendency towards the light.

    There is no emotion, there is peace.
    There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
    There is no passion, there is serenity.
    There is no chaos, there is harmony.
    There is no death, there is the Force


    Rey has survived for this long on Jakku because she never gave in to her despair and anger. She remained hopeful through it all.

    But she's tempted by the Darkness.

    They are two halves of a whole in that together, they embody the Force in it's purest form. That's their connection. There will never be harmony in the Galaxy unless they work together. The Dark Side and the Light Side will be in a constant battle if they are seen as separate sides. To find peace, you must, as Depa Bilaba says

    Emotion, yet peace.
    Ignorance, yet knowledge.
    Passion, yet serenity.
    Chaos, yet harmony.
    Death, yet the Force.
     
    #3 LilyInTheSkywalker, Nov 2, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2017
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  4. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    I actually view the balance differently from this, kind of.
    Yes, balance means the equality of light and darkness in the galaxy. Or good and evil to put it more simply.
    When the Sith were about they spread evil everywhere and this of course disrupted the balance.
    The thing that I see as the big difference is in regards to the Force users.
    I don't think for example that there is a middle ground between light or dark that a "Jedi" must find to keep balance.
    For a Jedi to maintain the balance they must remain in the light and fight tooth and nail vs the Dark Side.
    And so for me, the Whills poem is about a Jedi being wise enough to decide what is right and wrong (will of the Force) and make the right choice.

    The Force is generated by everything and connects everything - all people, all life - and that is the focus of the balance, not the individual Force users that have the power to greatly influence events in the galaxy. And do I don't think Luke imbalanced the Force by training Jedi - that would infer that the imbalance is caused simply by the existence of Jedi or Sith. No, for me what caused the imbalance was Ben Solo turning bad and helping the FO rise to power. Once again, as LST points to, there is despair across the galaxy once more. The Dark Side is empowered over the light.

    Can the light itself, if dominant, cause imbalance? Technically yes, but I doubt this can really happen as absolute selflessness and compassion is very hard to attain. This is what makes the path to Jedihood so difficult (though it is far more rewarding). I say this because, as the balance of the Force is determined by every living being (perhaps that has ever existed) it is also linked to "human nature" (for want of a better term). And so it's highly unlikely that a vast majority of people could act selflessly because a) it's a difficult path b) it sometimes goes against survival and c) evil is easier to come by. And so when we look at the Dark Side, when that spreads, being the "quicker and easier path" we can see why this upsets the balance of the Force. (I hope you're following me?!).

    Thus going back to the Jedi, this is why it is so important that they remain in the light and are wholly compassionate and selfless. Only through using the light can they defeat those that wield the dark (else they add to it - as we see with the Jedi in the PT). Again, it's a hard life being a Jedi - but the rewards are great. For those that obey the Dark Side will always be left wanting. They can never be satisfied and can only be destructive - of themselves and others.

    And so when balance is restored in RotJ, I believe that light and dark are equal again in the galaxy. But there is a cyclical nature to this. Evil will always exist and there will always come a point where evil manages to take over - and in the GFFA this is what makes the Jedi, as LST points out, so important as only the Jedi, through their refined sight, can end the oppression of the Dark Side and bring balance once more.

    In terms of Rey and Ben, I think this relates because they are at the moment "in the middle" (well, Ben is of course more in the dark) and the tension of the ST is about which way each of them will go. But because they're so similar, they can help each other make the right choices. And the right choice is to embrace the light - embrace compassion over hate and anger. If they do that, they can help bring balance and find happiness...
     
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  5. JediMasterRobert

    JediMasterRobert Rebel Official

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    Excellent points, master_shaitan.

    For quite a while I have suggested it is among Snoke's top priorities to induce conflict perpetually, perhaps with the intent of drawing energy / living Force / sustenance from that misery.

    I'm including some quotes from my prior posts on that matter because it seems more relevant and applicable than before due to these newly released details and footage:




     
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  6. DjChubakka

    DjChubakka Rebel Official

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    I think the conflict in Luke is his FEAR. He's always fought with it. But Rey, I don't see her having these demons, these fears. She was freaked out and shaken by her Force vision and she wanted to run away from what it meant. But she didn't show those signs of weakness, that would let the dark side in. She has that raw power, and a desire to learn, and to help her friends.

    Kylo is the opposite, full of ego, fear, anger and arrogance. They are opposites, but he is weak in his resolve, she is not.

    She "has no family" and Ben has spurned and murdered his.

    The rest of the trilogy could be the pull between them, he wants to bring her to the Dark side like Vader tried with Luke, but in the end it's Ben that come back to the light.

    I hope there's a point where Rey brings Luke back from his dark depths of fear and lost hope. He's the anti-yoda. I want to see him filled with hope and confidence again.
     
  7. Boss Vos

    Boss Vos Rebel Official

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    Snoke's words actually reminded me of a similar line in Batman v Superman.

    "God versus Man. Day versus Night. Son of Krypton versus Bat of Gotham!"
     
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  8. Perdu

    Perdu Rebel Official

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    Speaking of being reminded of quotes, this line in the Journal of the Whills:

    . . . By the resolving of gray
    Through refined Jedi sight.


    Reminds me of one of my favorite movies and where I think a conclusion must come for Luke if he has indeed lost faith and feels that in order for the darkness to fade the Jedi must end:

    We must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men.

    The problem with evil is that it must be stopped by someone. It does not exist because there is good. It is like a virus; infecting the host until there is nothing left.
     
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  9. Darth_Ash

    Darth_Ash Force Sensitive

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    Enter the Gray Jedi. Power on par with Qui -Gon Jin, but not restrained by this Dark/Light dichotomy, but flows easily between the two, not sucked into one side or the other. Kylo will draw out Rey's dark powers and she will bring him to use the light that is still within him
     
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