So, we know what's wrong with TFA, but what's wrong with the OT?

The difference being what people are picking on about TFA vs the PT. People are picking apart every scene as if each one is completely incoherent and doesn't make any sense, the majority of which is based on a lack of understanding. Many of the plot devices are very weak, but to say these scenes "don't make sense" in most cases shows a lack of understanding or people are simply using the lack of information to claim a mistake was made. That's where I can see the logic in pointing to the novelization; it gives additional information that the movie failed to flesh out. It might prove a logistical mistake wasn't made, but also shows TFA does a poor job of explaining things and properly integrating those explanations into the plot movement (RO excelled at this). But so many of the TFA complaints are nit picky and down right non-sensical. And I find that funny since they are plenty of legitimate things to criticize.

If you applied the same philosophy to all movies as some are applying to TFA, you would be hard pressed to find any movie ever made that makes any sense. Heck, you can make a case real life makes no sense.

I'm sorry, but the novelization of the PT can't make sense of bad acting, poor dialog, strange visual choices, non-existent chemistry of the romantic leads, and a lack of proper continuity with the OT.

 

Well, I thought "A New Hope" lacked a moral complexity found in the other films, aside from Han's character. R2 and 3PO's early adventures on Tatooine bored me. The Battle of Yavin seemed like a second-rate WW2 dogfight to me. I didn't find it that interesting. The Original Trilogy, like other "STAR WARS" films, featured cheesy dialogue. Two of Han's lines in "ANH" really sucked. I'm still frustrated that Lucas never revealed Leia's grief over Alderaan's destruction. This seemed to convey the message that to hold back the grief is a sign of strength, which is a stupid and infantile message to me.

"The Empire Strikes Back" never revealed how Leia and Han became romantically interested in each other in the first place. Some of their dialogue struck me as a little pedantic. "TESB" never explained why Leia was at Hoth in the first place, especially since General Rieekan was in command. The movies never explained why Han had failed to pay back Jabba the Hutt after three years, especially since he did receive payment from the Rebel Alliance for delivering Leia and the Death Star plans to Yavin 4. The 1980 movie was very confusing in conveying the amount of time Luke spent on Dagobah and how long it took the Falcon to travel from the Hoth system to Bespin with a broken hyperdrive. And the movie failed to convey how Lando Calrissian truly felt about Han inadvertently leading the Empire to Bespin. If I had been in his shoes, I would have been pissed. Instead, the movie's script only conveyed Han, Leia and Chewie's anger at him for being pissed. And are we supposed to sympathize with them . . . or wonder why they lacked the brains to wonder how Anakin and Boba Fett got to Bespin before them?

I really didn't need a second Death Star in "Return of the Jedi". I found its presence a sign of unoriginality. Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher's performances in "ROTJ" struck me as rather lazy. I never understood why it took Luke, Leia, Lando and Chewie an entire year to rescue Han. The movie never explained. I found Luke's rescue plan rather convoluted . . . and confusing. Like the plan to steal the Death Star plans in "Rogue One". The movie never explained how Luke managed to develop his Jedi skills without a tutor. In fact, why didn't he return to Dagobah to finish his training? Why did the Ewoks give Leia a new dress and didn't bother to give a new outfit to both Luke and Han? Why was it necessary to give Leia a new dress in that particular situation on Endor? Also, Luke's conversation with Obi-Wan's ghost on Dagobah featured one major inconsistency. Obi-Wan claimed that Owen Lars was his brother, in whose care he left Luke. Considering Obi-Wan's unemotional response to Owen's death in "A NEW HOPE", I found this hard to believe and could not help but view Obi-Wan's words as a major blooper. Especially since Obi-Wan had reacted with more emotion over Luke's reluctance to become a Jedi and kill Darth Vader. In that conversation, Obi-Wan also told Luke that Padme had taken Leia to Alderaan with her, while allowed Obi-Wan to take Luke to Tattooine. A lot of people see this as a blooper in "REVENGE OF THE SITH". I don't. Why? Because I do not see Padme or any other woman giving up one twin and keeping the other . . . period. Padme would have kept both Luke and Leia until her death, give up both twins while she was still alive, or die after giving birth. Lucas must have realized the mistake in this conversation in "ROTJ" and opted for the latter in "ROTS".


Don't get me wrong. I love the Original Trilogy, just as much as I love the Prequel Trilogy. But . . . I feel that both trilogies have their flaws.

Why do you feel the need to insult people who feel differently than you about some of the movies?

 

I personally loved TFA despite its flaws, and I do think the reason why a lot of people bash it is because they fail to look at it with the same perspective as they do other Star Wars films. The OT has several problems: The pacing, especially in the first acts of IV and VI, is numbingly slow. IV doesn't really have a moral complexity seen in the rest of the trilogy outside of Han; the bad guys are bad, the good guys are good. Overall, the OT does have some problems, but those problems never detract from the overarching story. As long as the ST does the same, it will be a success in my eyes.

 

This could be an interesting story to tell! When looking back on it, though, I think it is just part of Han's character. Think of the Special Edition scene in ANH where Jabba confronts Han at the hangar in Mos Eisley; or, think of the scene in TFA where the Gauvian Death Gang and Kanjiklub demand settlement from Han. What does Han do with all his money?

@CTrent29 you make many thoughtful points, and I would argue for many of them too!

However, it becomes easy to comb through Star Wars with knowledge of the whole Skywalker Saga, excepting the pending releases of Episodes VIII and IX. Identifying continuity errors, or preferring A over B when C would have been the better solution, is exactly what happened when George Lucas fell into the trap of making adjustments to the movies from the various audio tracks in 1977 to the title change in 1981 to the culmination of his vision manifest in his "final cut" version known as the Special Editions. This addiction of altering the films continued at Lucasfilm for the home video releases of the OT in 2004 and 2011. What started as a necessary preservation of the OT (chemically cleaning the original negative, creating cleaner optical wipes, enhancing the audio track), slipped into an over-indulgence of VFX as the creator's prerogative to artistic licence.

Both trilogies have their flaws, as you say, and I think that is partially what makes them so enduring. The films are a source for conversation. Fans deliberate over the intricacies of the Skywalker Saga and also the franchise's cinematic merit. What worked? What didn't work? What would have worked better? Many fans have a personal preference for how the Saga should have played out, but why does this make what Lucasfilm gave us "wrong"? These questions have led to fan fiction or fan edits, all of which are testament to how strongly the source material ( PT, OT, ST) resonates in all of us fans.

 

You made some very good points... Many that prove that in a Star Wars movie, we are left to fill in the blanks on our own, while the story focuses on the main plot point. This is a trademark of Kasdan script writing.

However...

Obi-wan never mentioned that Lars was his brother.... nor did Obi-wan say anything to Luke about Padme taking Leia to Alderaan.

Here is the dialogue from that scene on Dagobah between Luke and Obo-wan.

Luke: [approaching R2-D2] I can't do it, R2. I can't go on alone.

Obi-Wan: [from out of sight] Yoda and I will always be with you.

Luke: Obi-Wan.

[Obi-Wan's spirit approaches Luke]

Luke: Ben! Why didn't you tell me? You told me that Darth Vader betrayed and murdered my father.

Obi-Wan: Your father... was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. He ceased to be the Jedi Anakin Skywalker and "became" Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So, what I told you was true... from a certain point of view.

Luke: A certain point of view?

Obi-Wan: Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view. Anakin was a good friend. When I first met him, your father was already a great pilot. But I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong.

Luke: There is still good in him.

Obi-Wan: He's more machine now than man. Twisted and evil.

Luke: I can't do it, Ben.

Obi-Wan: You cannot escape your destiny. You must face Darth Vader again.

Luke: I can't kill my own father.

Obi-Wan: Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope.

Luke: Yoda spoke of another.

Obi-Wan: The other he spoke of is your twin sister.

Luke: But I have no sister.

Obi-Wan: Hmm. To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden from your father when you were born. The Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him. That is the reason why your sister remains safely anonymous.

Luke: Leia! Leia is my sister.

Obi-Wan: Your insight serves you well. Bury your feelings deep down, Luke. They do you credit, but they could be made to serve the Emperor.

 

WUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD?

Boom chickie wank bam wank chickie wa boom na gang dan boom da ie?

 

Original version.

 

That must have been a revised version you have seen. I've read the screenplay for "Return of the Jedi" and I've seen the version I have at home. And yes . . . Obi-Wan claimed that Owen was his brother.


Also:

LUKE
Leia! Leia's my sister.

BEN
Your insight serves you well. Bury your feelings deep down, Luke. They
do you credit. But they could be made to serve the Emperor.

Luke looks into the distance, trying to comprehend all this.

BEN (continuing his narrative)
When your father left, he didn't know your mother was pregnant. Your
mother and I knew he would find out eventually, but we wanted to keep
you both as safe as possible, for as long as possible. So I took you
to live with my brother Owen on Tatooine... and your mother took Leia
to live as the daughter of Senator Organa, on Alderaan.

Luke turns, and settles near Ben to hear the tale.

 

I think that dialog is in the third draft screenplay -- likely the shooting script -- and also the novelization, but this dialog is not in the final cut of Return of the Jedi.

 

Sorry, but I felt the need to ask this. How did you come up with that conclusion? Just because it wasnt shown dosent necessarily mean at all what you interpreted...
And even if it would, why would it be infantile?

 

That is not in the final cut of the movie. Never has been. And if it's not in the final cut of the movie, it's not canon. Lol