TFA better than ROTJ?

Both have some flaws, both have some incredible moments that are (and will be) ironic in the franchise once the entire story is known.

They cannot be compared to each other though.

 

Had a week to detox myself from the media hype and from the last time i saw TFA. My answer is no.
The Force Awakens is personally my fourth-most favourite Star Wars film, after the three OT films. TFA simply isn't original enough and relies too much on being a safe and soft reboot designed to please the fans. Much better than all the prequels though.

 

I never ever liked the reveal that Leia was Luke's sister. When you watch ANH or ESB knowing you can't help but squirm when they kiss. At least in TFA JJ used this to his advantage, by making the fallen son of Leia and Han also the grandson of Darth Vader.

 

Wow, you have a better understanding of my tastes and feeling than I do. Impressive. How do we know when your convictions are genuine?

 

I loved TFA (from a certain point of view) but overall it's still not better then any OT movies, including ROTJ.

The OT was a timeless classic Trilogy that won't be topped and that's why I'm cool with saying I love TFA from a certain POV.

I enjoyed the new characters, I enjoyed that it has revived my love for SW, I enjoyed that it has made me forget about the PT, and I look forward to Episodes 8 & 9.

Is it as good as ROTJ? No, but that doesn't mean I don't love it in the context that this is a different Trilogy with new characters. And honestly I won't pit the 2 trilogies against each other cause its 2 different entities.

 

Why we have to compare? ROTJ was the third act of the original trilogy. TFA is the first one of the sequels. I mean, both have great stuff and plot holes. But they will have different motivations behind: TFA is telling us about a new story, a new generation, while ROTJ is giving us the follow-up of the climax and the final stage, how that story ends. Why can't have both? Lol.

Just talking about the villains, Snoke so far is not as cool and quotable as the Emperor, but it is understandable since we are finally seeing Darth Sidious in person while what we saw of Snoke was a hologram. Maybe if we compare Episode IX with ROTJ it would be a fairer match.

 

That sentence doesn't even make sense.

 

enough said

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 25, 2015, Original Post Date: Dec 25, 2015 ---

English is not my mother tongue, but even I understand him.
He said ROTJ>TFA any day of the week.

 

That is how i feel about it, also i think each portion of the movies are stand alone to a certain degree.

 

The sentence still doesn't make sense, in English.

Anyway, I love ROTJ. It's a great movie. At least it was before getting butchered for the special edition. However, there is a more coherent whole to TFA.

ROTJ has some of my favourite moments of the saga - The space battle at Endor; Luke's confrontation with Vader and Palpatine; the Rescue of Han from Jabba's palace; the speeder bike chase . I even like the Ewoks.

But here's the problem, as a story it's more about tying up loose ends from the previous two movies than being a coherent story in it's own right. Jabba's palace is about tying up Han's loose ends. It doesn't really matter to the rest of the story. They just had to get Han back for the story to progress. Or not, it could have gone on without him.

RoTJ is full of lazy storytelling and stuff that just doesn't make sense - Luke needs training as a Jedi. Yoda is old, yet Luke left it a whole year before going back to him. At the end of Empire, Luke, Leia, Lando and Chewie know that Han is being taken to Jabba, yet, it takes them a whole year to get around to staging a rescue. Leia being revealed as Luke's twin sister, not only didn't make sense but created a big plot hole for the whole saga.

And my biggest gripe is Vader's redemption. It was too quick, too easy. He was a mass murderer who was responsible for the deaths of who knows how many people. Millions? Billions? Trillions? And his redemption comes from tossing the Emperor down a duct in the heat of the moment to rescue one individual, someone who was related to him? Give me a break. He had been planning on knocking off Palpatine at some stage anyway. No. Vader's redemption made no sense. And hey, when Obi Wan and Yoda become one with the force, their bodies disappear. Vader/Anakin still gets to be a force ghost even though his physical body remains intact.

As I said, I love RoTJ but compared to ANH, TESB and TFA, it's a sloppy piece of filmmaking.

 

I agree whole-hearted with your post. (I would have liked to give it a "Great Post" and "Wise" rate at the same time)
ROTJ is the weakest movie from the OT, but compared to the PT or TFA it looks like a clear winner to me.
Some scenes are great - Lukes badass attitude and introduction, saving Han, speeder bikes, throne room fight, death star 2 battle.
Some look forced, like the Luke/Leia "my sister has it" scene, it's weird and maybe it was the wrong decision to make them twins.
It looked like a last minute chance.
I suppose we can be glad that George Lucas stopped for a long time making Star Wars movies.
To be honest, in my opinion the movie/story quality with ROTJ went already slightly downhill.
Don't get me wrong I love the movie and I would miss it, it's a good trilogy ending.
My personal view is: If Lucas had directed a new Star Wars movie/trilogy between 1984 - 1992 I guess it would have sucked.
I guess the seperation with Gary Kurtz and the beginning of George Lucas stubburnness was the sign of things going downhill.

 

Maybe the main point is to get Luke totally trained as a Jedi, BUT had not been for Han the story would had been done by the Battle of Yavin. They were friends, they were a team, and they needed time to make a plan. And they struggled anyway. In the "Moving Target" book they focus on the duty vs love dilemma for Leia, and hiw her allegiance to the Rebel Alliance makes her focus on another mission before rescuing Han. For me it is totally OK they went to Jabba's palace just to see how as a team they worked together (and it is cool to see Princess Leia strangling Jabba with the chains he had on her - poetic justice lol).

 

Here's my issues with over analyzing Star Wars.

About the only film that stands entirely on its own is ANH, and that's because there was no intention in its making of the film going on to sequels, so the whole film is self-contained. As such, none of the other films hold up to the concept of self-contained story lines and how they make sense unto themselves.
Every third film will be tying up loose ends, every second film will be dangling loose ends, ever first film will be opening up to loose ends (except for ANH, but TPM and TFA both do more opening up and leaving vast volumes to be finished off than they resolve).

As to logical coherence, like the one just brought up about Darth Vader being burned while the other two evaporated, and yet all ended up as spirits: Star Wars has clearly never cared about logical coherence; it is concerned with symbolism...like mythological tales (which are a heavy inspiration to the series).

Darth Vader is burned because he has to be set free; he wasn't pure enough to do it on his own - that's why he was cremated; a ceremonial death with long roots in setting spirits free in multiple cultures.
The other two misted away into being spirits because they were holy and righteous, and so they get the Elijah the prophet ascension, or Jesus Christ type vanishing act treatment where no one can find their body because it vanished and they arose again, etc...

Similarly, Vader's redemption isn't about logical justice systems. On that scale it makes as much sense as the Christian idea that Hitler is saved and in heaven if he just up and said he was really sorry, accepted Jesus as his savior, and really meant it (and maybe said some Hail Mary's in some versions of redemption).
Vader's redemption is about the symbolism that he made the shift in his heart, or soul, or whatever you want to pin the emotional gooeyness upon that hits you in the feels (amygdala), and just like that version of Christianity, that's all the Force cares about - what's deep down inside your carebear heart.

Equally, in TFA, why does a non-Force attuned guy (Finn) just whip up the lightsaber and go about things even though extra-film material has gone over how that's not so easily possible (in the films...that's not a concept so much explored; implied by consequence of who is using lightsabers and all this talk about making your own and training being complete, but it's never spelled out that regular muggles can't use wands...err, non-Force attuned can't use lightsabers).
It's, again, symbolic. That lightsaber is a baton, and the new heroes who we are introduced to each take their turn carrying that baton on its way back to Luke in a reverse order of introduction to the Mystical Old Powerful Jedi as ANH contains (in ANH, the mystical "he's the only one who can save us now" Jedi is found in the beginning and the saber is released from his possession and given to the new hero; in TFA the mystical "he's the only one who can save us now" Jedi is found at the end and the saber is returned to him from the hero's possession).

Star Wars' plots have always been scaffolding to just get on to the next symbolic way-point.
"Many Bothans died to bring us this information."
That's our entire explanation for a massive amount of things that happened that we just *foomp* skipped right over because we had the super team back together and needed to get on to the next symbolic act.
They have the plans. How'd they get the plans. Uh... who cares, a bunch of people died, they got the plans, they make some blabber about obstacles enough to position it so our heroes are the only ones who can save the day...aaaaand queue joke and ACTION!

If you critically stop and try to make sense of the thought process of the characters and the in-universe logic of things that happen in Star Wars like you're watching a film that isn't buried six feet under a baptism in symbolism topped off with a holy dove descending in an X-wing, then Star Wars immediately falls apart on the most basic and fundamental levels. It hardly even makes it out of the first act of ANH without falling over and cutting its own head off under the application of realism.

These more line with epic mythological tales and Bible stories; they're like watching the logic of Jesus running around in the locations and order he did (which make absolutely no sense in realistic senses), or Hercules' foes means of being defeated (which have massive problems - humorously - when you extrapolate the concepts outward and try to imagine these characters living day-to-day lives).

Star Wars is akin to Homer's Iliad splashed over with a new paint job of pirate movies, race cars, and martial arts.
It's meant to just be ridden and enjoyed on one level, and philosophical on another.
What it's not designed to hold up to is logical realism.

 

That's OK; Lucas didn't direct ROTJ; Marquand did.

 

I know. I just like to thank all creators involved because often we go along like Lucas wrote and directed everything on his own as if Kasdan, Marquand (who Lucas wanted to be Spielberg), and Kirshner didn't have anything to do with it.

Without Marquand...
Lando doesn't hide at Jabba's, the Falcon doesn't fly in the death star, Lando doesn't pilot it, the death star wouldn't have been fully operational, Ackbar would not have been in charge (or said anything about traps), and Leia would not have been the bounty hunter (some random one was originally planned)...basically an entirely different movie (these are some of his contibutions).

 

Of the original three ROTJ is my least favorite because it almost had to much humor. Endor was almost a joke.

 

This business about Finn and the lightsaber - I don't think it was unrealistic, he picked it up but he wasn't all that good with it, the stormtrooper kicked his ass and injured Kylo toyed with him for a while before leaving him in a coma.

 

I got it after TESB and ROTJ, but before ANH, ROTS, AOTC, TPM