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SPECULATION The Kylo = Sequel Trilogy Theory

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by cawatrooper, May 3, 2018.

  1. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Over lunch today, I watched a pretty interesting take on The Last Jedi on Wisecrack, a channel that I really enjoy.



    You can watch it if you'd like, but for this thread, I'd like to focus on one specific idea mentioned within- that Kylo Ren is sort of a symbolic embodiment of the Sequel Trilogy itself.

    The case they make is this:

    In The Force Awakens, Kylo Ren is obsessed with Darth Vader. He constantly struggles with his own attempts to emulate his hero, while still being portrayed as being unworthy to take on the mantle.

    [​IMG]

    Likewise, this directly mirrors the fact that The Force Awakens, while immensely popular, still had an uphill struggle to compare to the Original Trilogy- at least, in the eyes of fans.

    Cut to The Last Jedi. Kylo Ren is fed up with trying to be Vader, and is even instructed by Snoke to "take that ridiculous thing off", telling him that he'll never be Vader. In a rage, Kylo smashes his helmet to bits and eventually overthrows Snoke, taking the First Order for his own and becoming his own version of a monster. "Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

    [​IMG]


    Likewise, it was clear from some reactions to The Force Awakens in 2015 that fans wanted a more unique movie that was less reliant on old Star Wars tropes. In doing so, Rian Johnson basically turned Star Wars on its head, subverting plot points left and right. In The Last Jedi, Rian does a lot to separate the future of Star Wars from the past, and crafts a new identity for the series (for better or for worse).




    So, let's assume this interpretation is accurate, and Kylo is a sort of canary in the Star Wars coal mine, acting as a visual representation of the state of the series.

    I think it's no secret that IX has to win some fans over. While the movie is beloved by many (including myself) there's definitely been some backlash. If there's one thing Star Wars needs to do, it's to fully reinstate the good name that it has in cinema.

    And honestly, that's not too far from where we are with Kylo Ren. He came so close to doing something truly good when he overthrew Snoke in The Last Jedi, but ultimately fumbled in the end- ironically, due to his (and Rian's) insistence that it was time to let old things die.

    I don't think that this was intentional (if it was, it's brilliant) but Kylo Ren and Rian Johnson's choices to let the past die both contributed a lot to Star Wars' current status, and have been a pretty problematic thing for many people. So, I think it's safe to say that Kylo, intentional or not, is definitely still a conduit for the series as a whole.





    So, now the interesting part- what happens now? If Kylo and the series are still tied as two fates, can we glean much info from what might happen in IX? Both have done some to burn bridges, and I think there's an expectation (and a hope) that those things will be mended. Personally, I think that this fits in nicely with the idea of Kylo's redemption- but I think there's one problem with how broadly that theory is being applied here. See, if Star Wars and Kylo Ren represent each other, then it would be silly to give Kylo Ren anything but a happy ending, as I'm sure LFL doesn't want to actively tank the series with IX. So, perhaps we need a looser interpretation.

    Any thoughts?
     
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  2. Pawek_13

    Pawek_13 Jedi General

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    The metacommentary angle regarding interpretation of Sequel Trilogy is definitely interesting and worth exploring. Here's another video that explores this topic:


    It's a nice watch and it also adds tot this analysis another character, who fits this theory as well as Kylo:
    [​IMG]
    Rey.
     
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  3. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Interesting, @Pawek_13. I'll have to take a look.

    Thanks!
     
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  4. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    1. i believe it is entirely intentional.
    2. i think a lot of fans don't understand that Ren's apothegm of "let the past die" is itself set up to be subverted in the end. which it is, by failed Luke the Legend who rises to the occasion to become triumphant Luke the Legend. and in Luke reminding Leia to not let her hope die. and in the persistence of both the newly re-branded Rebellion and the Jedi.
    the ST is about balance. it's not saying the past is bad or that the future must raze it in order to be good.
    it's also not saying that the past is sacred and must be honored at all costs on all levels.
    it's saying everything in perspective and proportion.

    Ben is the canary in the coal mine (and so is Rey). the two of them are navigating tricky waters to understand the balance, their place, and objective perspective (which neither of them posses at this point, though Rey made much more progress toward it in TLJ than Ben did).

    wouldn't it? : D
     
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  5. McDiarmid

    McDiarmid Force Sensitive

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    Kylo is already made looser. That is unfortunate.

    First chance--
    [​IMG]

    They would need entire episode IX to fix Kylo to redeem him, and at the end it will be waste of tim, bad and unfulfilling.

    Only solution is Rey Skywalker.
     
    #5 McDiarmid, May 5, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: May 6, 2018
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  6. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

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    For me, it wasn't about subversion. Ever since "THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK", George Lucas managed to subvert the franchise.

    I just could not deal with the poor writing that Rian Johnson used for his own brand of subversion. His subversion was about good storytelling. It was all about shock value. That's it.

    A happy ending for Kylo Ren? What for? More shock value? Is that what storytelling has devolved into . . . shock value?
     
  7. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    I guess what I mean is that while I'm sure that LFL meant for the Resistance (and Kylo) to be at a low point at the end of this film, I don't think the filmmakers intended as a low point for the franchise itself (nor do I really think that reflects reality, anyway, regardless of how some angry fanboys seem to feel).

    Right, I agree with you about Kylo's statement being ultimately the wrong message. I think a lot of people tend to forget Kylo Ren is still a villain.

    Take a look at Black Panther, for instance.
    Killmonger is an incredibly sympathetic villain, and he makes a compelling case for his actions. But ultimately, he's still wrong. We're not meant to debate on whether his planned revolution is a good way of achieving justice or not, but to see that T'Challa's more peaceful and scientific methods are ultimately the better outcome.

    And I think that audiences trust Kylo Ren so much is really a testament to his character. He's not even a villain that we love to hate, he's a villain that we want to trust.

    I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean.


    I'd agree that shock value has often been a huge replacement for storytelling lately (and as much as I love Game of Thrones, I can't help but find it largely responsible).

    But personally, I think it's too early to tell right now. I mean, I think it's really disengenuous to say that TLJ doesn't have a plot, but I think it's also accurate and obvious to say that there are definitely times that the film clearly tries to prey upon and upend expectations fans have of Star Wars.
     
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  8. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    oh, thanks for clarifying! no, i don't think they hoped it would be a low point for some fans, but to be honest i don't feel like they're surprised.
    TLJ is a very uncomfortable film and a lot of people don't like the story it told (or the way it was "executed").
    but they're not making this ST for people who think it should be about Luke bringing down star destroyers with his Force powers.
    and thank God for that (at least for me: that's not what i want from this saga).

    i can think of a lot of ways i would have approached TLJ differently to cut down on some character clutter and tidy up a few indulgences, but it is what it is: and Ren Ben and Rey are at the heart of it. characters like Luke, Snoke, people's dead parents: they're catalysts, they're not the ultimate focal points and never were meant to be.

    if you don't like Ren Ben or Rey, the ST is bound to be a frustrating experience.
    i totally get it. i love Batman. i don't love Ben Affleck and i don't love Frank Miller or his aesthetic: hence, the whole WB DCU is a completely wash for me.
    but guess what i don't waste my time doing. XD
     
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  9. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

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    The Sequel Trilogy is a frustrating experience for me.
     
  10. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    The heart of TLJ are Kylo and Luke and that's the problem. Everything else feels bland or crude. You can clearly see that Rian loves these two characters but he also had to deal with the other characters... xD

    For many people the PT was a frustrating experience. Some things will never change.
     
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  11. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    I think it is very possible that the key piece in these stories is Kylo Ren. It’s been said often that JJ wishes to tie up the three trilogies in episode 9 and I feel he might do it through Kylo/Ben, making him the chosen one: the one meant to bring balance to the galaxy.

    And also harmonise the old and the new elements in Star Wars, hopefully with a compelling story, which reaches the fans without patronising them.
     
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  12. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    you get a Saw Gerrera from me. XD

    TLJ is as much about Ren Ben and Luke as TFA is about Ren Ben and Han Solo.
    which is to say: it is to a degree, but the heart of both movies is still Rey and Ren Ben.

    Ren Ben's encounters with the OT heroes cause him reflection and doubt and conflict.
    his encounters with Rey fundamentally change him; his goals, his focus, and his motivation.

    honest to God, i think one of the problems some people have with TLJ is that the climax happens in the throne room and the rest is all denouement afterglow.
    this is unlike more common Aristotelian climax structure, though just as a valid.
    it's the difference between a male and female orgasm, frankly.

    yeah, i went there. : o p

    [​IMG]
     
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  13. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    If you ever give me a Disagree or anything like that, then I'll give you a sad Ren face! xD

    Rian said the protagonist of TLJ is Luke.

    I really thought the movie would end after the Throne Room fight, but it still went on. Funnily I think everything after the Throne Room is great, but it's still badly paced... Weird!
     
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  14. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    being a protagonist (one of several) is not the same thing as being the heart.

    Luke is the heart of the OT.
    i can't answer who's the heart of the PT because it's just a mess. it probably should have been Obi Wan, though it tries to be Anakin.
    in the ST Han is dead. Luke is dead. the heart is clearly Rey and Ben.
    the story will resolve around the conflict/need for balance between these two.

    and i don't think post-throne room it's badly paced. it's unusually paced for a traditional adventure-style story (see spoiler above).
    which is not to say it couldn't use tightening if you wanted to do it (and already have ; D).
    but that's a different issue from whether the story beats makes sense and have an intentional/deliberate rhythm.
     
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  15. Pawek_13

    Pawek_13 Jedi General

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    I did not expect that.
     
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  16. Lylo Ren

    Lylo Ren Rebel General

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    Will you just admit that you hate Kylo Ren already?
    --- Double Post Merged, May 16, 2018, Original Post Date: May 16, 2018 ---
    I thought the same thing about the Throne Room scene, tbh. What a way to end the movie that would have been.
     
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  17. kuatorises

    kuatorises Rebelscum

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    I was going to ask what you meant by fumbled, but judging by the second highlighted statement you literally meant he could have done something good; and redeemed himself.

    I cannot believe anybody wants to see him redeemed. For starters, it's a played out concept in this franchise. I want a bad guy who is Maclunkey BAD; and Kylo is just that. He killed his father, who is one of the most popular characters in the franchise for Christ's sake. Redeemed?! Why would you even want to see that?
     
  18. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Believe it, buddy.

    A lot of people want it.
     
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  19. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    A lot of people want to see it because they don't want Han's and Luke's deaths to be for nothing. Furtermore Star Wars is pretty much about redemption.
     
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  20. kuatorises

    kuatorises Rebelscum

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    Han's and Luke's deaths have meaning if Kylo is redeemed? that makes zero sense.
    --- Double Post Merged, May 17, 2018, Original Post Date: May 17, 2018 ---
    A lot? I think you overestimate your stance on the matter.
     
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