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The mother of all PT vs OT threads

Discussion in 'General Movie Discussion' started by Ree Yees, Nov 17, 2015.

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  1. Ree Yees

    Ree Yees Rebel Official

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    A few threads elsewhere are derailing into PT vs. OT debates. I don't mind derailed threads personally, as I am all for the free flow of conversation unburdened by moderators (I must say the moderators here are awesome though compared to basically every other Star Wars forum - kudos), but then again I would also like to have a thread where we really go in-depth into a discussion of the perceived merits and flaws of the two trilogies.

    I would suggest that for this thread to reach optimal power, we refrain from using the icons to "award" or "punish" posts as the subject is bound to get people eager, excited, even angry (which, as we all know, can only lead to suffering - yeah that was a snipe at Yoda's absolutism, which only Sith are supposed to deal in).

    Of course, this thread won't take off unless people are willing and able to discuss this fan-dividing, touchy subject. and if it doesn't, so be it.

    Personally I seem to never tire of discussing this. Star Wars has truly become a love/hate thing for me, conveniently along the prequel/original axis.

    So to start off, I'll post the following statement:

    There is nothing in the prequel trilogy that is better than anything in the original trilogy.
    (Alternatively, there is nothing in the original trilogy that the prequels didn't improve upon)

    Thoughts?

    [​IMG]
     
    #1 Ree Yees, Nov 17, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2015
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  2. Rebo

    Rebo Nearsighted Whill Guardian
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    Gonna stick my head in here in advance. I love a good discussion of the merits of films. I love a good Pt vs OT debate. If everyone keeps it on the movies and not the people, we should be fine here. Just remember. A person disagreeing with you does not make the less than you in any way. It does not give you right to insult or name call or to act all high and mighty about the ineffability of your opinions. If everyone remembers that and respects each other's opinions, maybe we can have a real discussion here.

    That being said...
    The scores to TPM and AotC are better than return of the Jedi. There I said it. :)
     
    #2 Rebo, Nov 17, 2015
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  3. Lazlo

    Lazlo Rebel Official

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    Thunderdome: Two ideas enter, one idea leaves (duel)

    So....I am old enough to have a strong prejudice toward the OT, but also wise enough to recognize that the OT isn't the unassailable word of God.

    I enjoyed the PT, and look at some of the complaints that others have through a different lens, so they are not as bad, to me, as others would like us to believe.

    I'll start at TPM and go through my likes and dislikes all of the way through ROTJ.

    TPM
    Likes:
    the lightsaber duel
    Qui Gon
    Sidious as a manipulator, not a brute force bad guy
    Darth Maul
    Dislikes:
    Jar Jar
    The two headed podrace announcer
    "Roger Roger"
    Midichlorians
    Yoda's looks
    Overall impression:
    I get the need to set up the galactic republic as a place where the rule of law and the political process is how things are done. There was some over the top cheesiness. The CGI was mostly well done.

    AOTC:
    Likes:
    Obi Wan versus Jango
    The Kaminoans
    Anakin wiping out the Tusken village
    Mace Windu dropping Jango like a bad habit
    Dislikes:
    "Die Jedi Scum!"
    flying R2
    everything else about the droid factory scene
    Too much CGI
    Overall Impression:
    My least favorite of all the films. I get the romance set up and that GL provided some really poor dialogue and direction. To me it set Anakin up as a bad guy trying to be good, rather than the other way around, which made his turn in ROTS OK. I seriously would rate the movie higher except for the $%#@*% droid factory.

    ROTS:
    Likes:
    Jar Jar relegated to a minor role, though this shouldn't actually count as a like, it was more of a welcome relief
    The opening scene, all of the way through the Death of Dooku
    Obi Wan versus Vader
    Obi Wan shooting Grievous
    Dislikes:
    The Palpatine arrest scene, the lightsaber work in that was the worst of all of the films
    Sidious' transformation from force lightning
    She's lost the will to live, It would have been much more believable if Vader had force pushed her and ruptured her spleen or something
    "NOOOOOOOOO"
    Overall impression:
    Good film, fixed a lot of the AOTC flaws and set up the transition to the OT, lacked emotional punch because you knew how it was going to turn out.

    ANH:
    Likes:
    Dude, it's Frickin' Star Wars:D
    Dislikes:
    Leia's fake British accent
    Overall impression:
    This is the one that hooked me, and it still holds up very well today.

    ESB:
    Likes:
    Yoda's reveal (though much less impactful now that we have the PT)
    Seriously, pretty much everything
    Dislikes:
    Being able to exit the MF in just a respirator on an atmosphere-less asteroid in deep space
    The time continuity thing: Did Luke only spend a couple of days on Dagobah or did the MF spend 1-2 months getting to Bespin at sublight speeds?
    Overall impression:
    My favorite film

    ROTJ:
    Likes:
    The entire set of scenes in Palpatine's throne room on the Death Star
    The space battle above Endor
    Dislikes:
    Ewoks, dear god we had Care Bears with spears and leather winged gliders
    The fight above the Sarlaac pit was "clunky"
    The Ewoks took out a legion of "My finest troops."
    Overall impression:
    My least favorite of the OT, and on par with ROTS. It did wrap things up nicely, but was just disappointing somehow after how mature ESB was.
     
    #3 Lazlo, Nov 17, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2015
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  4. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Rebel Official

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    The graphic comparison of "benefits of OT and PT" is hilarious, what a great find.

    Although I believe I made it abundantly clear in various threads why I dislike and reject RotS (aka The Murder of Star Wars' Iconic Villain), I nevertheless must concede two items that were superior to the OT:

    - Ian McDiarmid's acting as Senator Palpatine
    - the depiction of how the Jedi were murdered (choreography, music, atmosphere, editing combined to one of the most memorable and emotionally touching scenes in the saga)
     
    #4 Lt. Hija, Nov 18, 2015
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  5. Ree Yees

    Ree Yees Rebel Official

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    Lol. each post has received at least one rating. As stated I wish this thread to be free of ratings, to make it easier to join the discussion without fear of negative rep.

    That being said I'lll respond to the posts so far later when I'm unburdened by...a lot
     
    #5 Ree Yees, Nov 18, 2015
  6. Trevor

    Trevor Rebellion Arms Supplier
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    RIGHT AWAY I'm going to say this:

    This thread is potentially trouble in the making and when the lovers and haters gravitate to it...all hell is potentially going to break loose. When that happens, the thread gets locked...someone just got "life-banned" over it yesterday. Tread very carefully here, folks. ;)
     
    #6 Trevor, Nov 18, 2015
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  7. Jedihopper

    Jedihopper Rebel General

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    Great Thread Idea!

    Background: born in 1983, I didn't get to see the OT in the theatre. I first watched Star Wars, on VHS recorded from Disney Chanel. Saw it at least 10 times, I must've been 7 or 8. Then when I was 10, my grandpa's neighbor took her super Beta tapes of ESB and ROTJ and copied those on to VHS for me. (The ROTJ tape ended right as the death star blew, so I had to go back to the ESB tape after the credits where the neighbor recorded the funeral pyre and Ewok celebration, lol). I probably watched the OT on tape from ages 10-15 at least 50 times. In 1997, I saw StarWars in the theatre, special edition. One of the best moments of my life. I still remember the trailer for the special edition...hyped! And I saw the rest in theaters as well. So, while not a true OT generation fan...I grew up with them. They were my first understanding of what StarWars is.

    I was 16 for the TPM. Loved it, saw it opening day with friends. I was 19 for AOTC, and it was my first date with my future wife. By the time ROTS came around, I was married and saw that one midnight show with a bunch of family.

    Thoughts: I loved the PT when they came out and watched each in the theatre several times, and would get the dvds and watch those over and over between each film. The action, the story, the characters, the effects...I loved each one as a I saw them.

    10 years later however, I've changed a little as a SW fan. I still like the PT and there are moments of greatness in each film...but the OT is just better. The acting is better, the tone is better, the drama is better...and I dare say - the characters themselves are better. Vader is better than bad Anakin. Luke is better than good Anakin. Solo is better than whoever his counterpart would be. Leia is better than Padme. etc...

    I can still watch and enjoy the PT...they are still head and shoulders above most of the crap that hollywood churns out these days and even back then. There are moments of greatness in each film -

    TPM - Liam Neeson as Qui-Gon and Ewan McGregor as Obi-wan, the entire final battle in TPM starting with the palace break-in, Qui-Gon's scenes with Shmi, Sidious and Maul's short scene in the flesh...wish there had been a bit more of that, Naboo itself and Courscant are great worlds...really loved the world-building of this film.

    AOTC - The nightclub stuff was good, the Couruscant chase, all of the Tatooine stuff was actually really good...Hayden's best as Anakin looking for his mom, his interactions with Watto and the Lars family, his reaction to her death...those were solid scenes, agree with whoever said the droid factory was crap...that doesn't hold up well at all now 13 years later, the arena stuff is...ok. I like it for what it is. Lotsa Jedi action! The lightsaber duel in this one is so choppy and broken up..it's 3 short little fights. The yoda stuff got a big cheer back in the day...now, it's...fine. It's just fine, lol. The little moment of the wedding at the end still gives chills...such a pivotal decision. The score is phenominal too. Across the Stars might be one of my favorite star wars themes...it's a top 3 for me.

    ROTS - the opening is great, the Grevious stuff lags...the Palpatine scenes are all money. Ian McDiarmid is fantastic in this movie. The interactions with Anakin/Obi-wan are good, Padme still sucks, lol. She's really phoning it in this movie, except for one line in a senate scene. Bail is a good character, I like his small supporting role in this movie. The change to Vader is still hammy and kinda lame - "I'm going to murder kids to safe my wife. Oops, she still dies." I liked the Mace/Sidious concept and some of the imagery is good, but the fight itself is very clunky and goofy...like the CGI Sidious flip off some piece of furniture that had no point...however...one of the best moments in ROTS is anakin in the temple, the sun setting, the music lightly playing Across the Stars, a tear falls...that moment is powerful. Order 66 is done well. Pretty much everything from then on is great, except for Padme's death and "NOOOOO". The mustafar fight is great and Ewan's acting at the end nails it. Vader on the bridge, Leia on Alderaan, Luke on Tatooine, twin sunset, out. Great ending.

    The OT is legend. Not much to say about it. Some hammy acting here and there, and some effects don't hold up over time but that's it. It rules.
     
    #7 Jedihopper, Nov 18, 2015
  8. Ree Yees

    Ree Yees Rebel Official

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    Then this awesome place isn't any better than TheForce.net and its police :(
    That being said, the thread's premise is made clear - go in only if you have thick skin.
     
    #8 Ree Yees, Nov 18, 2015
  9. Trevor

    Trevor Rebellion Arms Supplier
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    I see....well with that statement (that has been noted), you're VERY free to go elsewhere. :)

    You'll keep in mind that the "premise" that you outlined will mean nothing to the warmonger that comes into this room and there are no private rooms to have your own "SW Fight Club" here. This is a place of peace and debate, not a potential "rock-throwing party" for your entertainment.
     
    #9 Trevor, Nov 18, 2015
  10. Ree Yees

    Ree Yees Rebel Official

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    You refer to my embiggened statement to get the ball rolling? I'll edit it to smaller types if you think it will incite. I'm not out for blood, honestly, just discussion. I like civility but I guess we'll have to see if this thread can live or needs to be put out.

    As I said I think moderation here so far is great, though I think permaban is extremely harsh unless the poster in question is spamming deviant material. I am happy we at least get a chance to give it a try so don't take my initial reaction as .. anything, really.
     
    #10 Ree Yees, Nov 18, 2015
  11. Trevor

    Trevor Rebellion Arms Supplier
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    As I've seen here, due to the perceived anonymity of the internet there are too many of "those people" that enjoy flaming....especially over topics such as this.

    Initially, my reaction to the title was: "Oh hell no!", but I'll let you give it a go until it grinds to a halt...then we'll see what happens! :)
     
    #11 Trevor, Nov 18, 2015
  12. Ree Yees

    Ree Yees Rebel Official

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    All right, that's cool, thanks. I'll edit my post once the younglings are in bed.
     
    #12 Ree Yees, Nov 18, 2015
  13. Rebo

    Rebo Nearsighted Whill Guardian
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    I think the trick here is keeping the focus on the movies. There's nothing wrong with criticizing and debating. There are no permabans here for criticism of Star Wars like other places might see. The issue is when posters make it personal. Turn criticisms of films into attacks on other members. That behavior can't be tolerated if we are expected to continue to be an inviting space to speak freely.

    I don't want to speak for @Trevor but I don't think his issue is with the nature of your thread in its pure form as much as those who may bastardize its purpose and turn this into a flame war as opposed to a discussion of the flaws and merits of the franchise. If people can hold onto their maturity and sanity and keep this civil we have no issues. Civil doesn't mean you can't state things you dislike about a certain film. It just means you don't attack the poster who disagrees with you. That sort of behavior (and an unwillingness to change that behavior after being told to) is what results in a banning. Not censorship over a topic, but general respect for the other members. If everyone shows that respect, then we don't need to close threads and boot people. Unfortunately, that level of maturity and civility rarely holds for long.
     
    #13 Rebo, Nov 18, 2015
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  14. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    I still believe ROTS is the most overrated SW movie, as the PT defenders put this on the same plane as ANH & ESB. While TPM & AOTC aren't that great, they still set it where ROTS could have redeemed them and the Trilogy. TPM was the only PT movie that atleast tries to be like the OT with that sense of adventure, and AOTC atleast starts to set up Anakin's fall along with the Empire coming to power. ROTS maybe the most interesting of the 3 PT movies, but it is executed so bad it is actually the least watchable these days.

    -I still don't understand Anakin's turn to the darkside? So he's trusting a guy who has lied to the Jedi and Senate for 10 years about his identity that he may know how to bring back the dead? And on his first assignment he is supposed to kill every Jedi in the temple including all of the younglings? That transition from good to bad just wasn't believable.

    -Order 66 was devoid of any emotion. So the jedi purge happens in 3 minutes, and I don't know any of the Jedi by name (except the Conehead guy )or even remotely cared about them during the previous 2 movies, but I am supposed to feel emotional when this happens?

    -Padme turns out to be a quitter? So this strong teenage girl who is elected as Queen and then Senator falls in love with this guy who killed a village of tuskens, and then she bails after giving birth to her 2 children?

    -Anakin vs Obiwan duel on Mustar is BORRRRINGGGGG...... The ultimate duel, this should have been Ali vs Frazier! Instead it was Mayweather vs Pacquiao! ;)

    -Palpatine doesn't mind getting his face melted??? In the EU books, Palpatine's face was a result of the darkside and it was a moral play in that there were ramifications of giving into the darkside. In ROTS, he just lets Mace burn his face in hopes of wooing Anakin? Hope he had a good plastic surgeon!

    -Obiwan drop off Luke at Owen/Beru's? Hey guys, "You interested in this baby I got stuck with?" How about having Owen turn his back on Obiwan while Beru takes the baby so it would show by Owen bad mouths him to Luke in ANH.
     
    #14 Jedi77-83, Nov 18, 2015
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  15. Rebo

    Rebo Nearsighted Whill Guardian
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    I agree with everything you write there. The thing that occasionally (I go back and forth on this) makes me rank RotS in the same area as RotJ is that the other aspects of the film are better executed than the other prequels.

    - The acting of the leads (the one's that are in all three that is) outside of Natalie Portman is at its best in RotS. Hayden does better in Sith outside of a few major groaners (The awful flirtation scene and his verbal confrontation pre-battle with Obi-Wan on Mustafar to name a few). I like McGregor and McDiarmid in all 3 PT movies, but they both do their best work in RotS.

    - The writing (outside of the botched fall) is tighter. The Ani/Obi relationship is better developed here than AotC and their banter is well paced and more human sounding. You actually start to feel like they are freinds. The opening battle, combined with their conversations on coruscant culminating in Obi-Wan's departure for Utapau is actually a pretty nicely written mini-arc for the two of them.

    - The pacing and editing is superior to the other two prequels. The action scenes don't feel lifeless. The pacing on the opening infiltration of Greivous's ship is tight and well paced as is Obi/Greivous and Mace/Palps (horrific lightsaber choreography aside).

    - The other thing about RotS is that are a few very good scenes that stand out. The Opera. Obi-Wan's Departure. Padme's Ruminations. The parts of Order 66 that are not Anakin on Coruscant. Those to me are some classic star wars scenes. Other PT movies have some scenes like that too (Maul duel, Jango/Kenobi on Kamino), but they tend to be fewer or stand out less.

    That said, the parts of RotS I dislike bothe rme more than the other PT movies. Which is why I go back and forth on my opinion of the film overall. Specifically the three major Anakin/Padme scenes, Anakin's transition to Vader, and Anakin's confrontation with Obi-Wan.
     
    #15 Rebo, Nov 18, 2015
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  16. Ree Yees

    Ree Yees Rebel Official

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    All right, y'all. We'll keep it civilized (unlike those pesky blasters, which areso uncivilized compared to limb-severing lightsabers :p), and it's time for me to answer some of the things that have come up so far. I have edited my initial post with the mega-bait into something I hope is a little more edible.

    Well you kicked it off with a rather interesting one (to me, anyway) - because I think (and I'm sure many would agree) that the scores of the three prequels is indeed perhaps the finest to come out of it. I don't agree that any of the prequel scores is better than Jedi's but yeah, of all the things in the PT the music was perhaps the best thing.
    However, there's a big but:

    But even John Williams' work was mangled in the PT-grinder. The sequence of scenes in the PT were often jumping between ponderous and action-filled (particularly II & III - I think Episode I was the most stream-lined narrative) and so Williams' music was cut to accomodate, which resulted in a hodge podge of music that never had the time to breathe or unfold. The most glaring example of this is in AOTC when the film jumps between two youngsters frolicking in paradise and Obi-Wan chatting with the aliens from Close Encounters and facing off against Jango Fett.

    In addition, whether by design or accident, the music sometimes felt misplaced, and this is more due to the nature of the movies than the music itself, but this too hurt my appreciation of the music: As an example - again from that movie I absolutely like the least, AOTC - during the droid factory scene, suddenly we hear Yoda's theme music which is hilariously innapropriate in my opinion. At this point in the movie, Yoda hadn't even arrived to around the survivors, a perimeter create. I felt that this choice showed me all too clearly how little Lucas truly understood of the music of his own movies, and how Williams had so expertly weaved character themes into the film at the right places. Say what you will about Jedi's music, but while the Ewok theme might get on your nerves after a while, it is music that sounds consistent with the characters (the Ewoks) and comes in a variety of forms throughout the fight on Endor.

    One final note (pun not intended):
    At many points during the PT I felt that the music kind of overshadowed what we saw on the screen, in the sense that it felt like Williams was the only one in the production who did his best to make the viewer feel something. Of course, music is a huge factor in conveying emotion, but when this happened in the prequels it just came off as silly (again, IMO) because I was seeing one thing, and not feeling anything, yet the music was insisting on me to feel...anything. Case in point: When Anakin starts his pod racer and he shouts, "It's working, it's working!" and the music soars into a heart-tugging crescendo and it just falls flat because the film never made it a possibility that the pod racer wouldn't work. So, the content of the films didn't quite gel with the music if you know what I mean.
    Other examples include the insanely epic Duel of the Fates, played to a fight between two almost emotion-less Jedi and a cool-looking but ulitmately shallow villain with a screentime of two minutes. This too, fell flat for me. I remember watching it the first time and thinking that they were going for a Howard Shore - his work on The Lord of the Rings was obviously becoming an influence on other composers (before Fellowship, the use of massive choirs wasn't as commonplace as it is now). But where Shore's music was linked to a movie full of emotive characters and dire situations, Duel was linked to a flat film, and so the music too fell flat (to me).

    I also happen to feel that Williams' foray into the world of choirs wasn't as succesful as many other fans think. Both Duel of the Fates and the music played during the duel on Mustafar in III ("Battle of the Heroes"? Is a two-man fight a battle? And I saw only one hero, barely) are rather simple compositions with little in the way of layering or nuances - it's repetitive choral music meant to pound the observer of the film into submission...felt the same thing with Battle of the Heroes during III as well, that the music was intense and epic but what I was seeing was two uninteresting characters slugging it out in a CGI wonderland, never exchanging dialogue or doing anytjing realistic (even within the fantasy universe of Star Wars).

    Right. I thought my final note was farther up, but it seems I have more to say on the matter. Scattered throughout the trilogy's soundtracks are a number of cues that I do happen to like, and "Anakin's Theme", while overly sweet, was a stroke of genius in terms of musical composition (the main melody is actually a variation on "The Imperial March"). The theme of the Gungans was quite similar to the Ewoks, and there was some powerful choir music that totally didn't suit the coughing, non-threatening Grievous. All in all I found the prequel soundtracks to be rather forgettable, and that it only soared properly in some sequences - and often while using themes established in the original trilogy. I am very curious how the soundtrack to The Force Awakens is, to put it mildly.

    But Jedi had some great pieces - and though I agree it's the weakest score of the first three films, it did have some excellent pieces as memorable as some of the best from IV and V: The Emperor's sinister theme, the theme of brother and sister ("Luke and Leia"), and that cool almost galloping part as Lando and Wedge lead the rebel fighters into the Death Star superstructure. dam-dam-dam-dam-DAAA-da.

    What say you, @Rebo?


    I always liked Palpatine in Jedi, in that crazy old evil mastermind kind of way. And I do like his portrayal of Senator Palpatine in both I and II but when we came to III he (Ian McDiarmid) just...well, combined with Lucas' writing, there was a total and, to me, unbelievable change in the character from coldly calculating ruthless politician/secret Sith Lord to a gibbering baboon. There was one scene - the sperm opera - where Ian really nailed the character as he was established, but the rest ruined the character IMO. Ian hammed it up so much I blushed with embarassment that I had paid money to see this. Though I agree that McDiarmid did some great acting throughout, I'd rather take the Emperor from Jedi. I also happen to think that Palpatine could have/should have been written to be much more menacing and cunning, that his "transformation" scene was completely over-the-top stupid (one of the greatest Jedi and the greatest evil mastermind of the galaxy resort to yelling "Yes!" / "No!" to each other?!?!?! I couldn't believe it and that's probably why I failed).

    As for the depiction of the Jedi murdered...I couldn't disagree more. The whole Order 66 sequence was such a mess of undercooked CGI, coupled with totally unbelievable character deaths (three clone troopers to wipe out a Jedi master? - it reeks of laziness) and one instance of hilarity where grave seriousness was expected (have you seen how silly it looks when the hot Twi'Lek Jedi is killed? Haha, I laughed out loud in the cinema - add more blushing). The original trilogy established a much more interesting and sinister backstory - "Vader helped the Emperor hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights".

    I know, I know, you can't base arguments on what isn't in the movie, but I can't and will never understand how having a montage of random weird-looking Jedi getting shot by clone troopers sounds better than a montage of Darth Vader, mask and suit and all, slaughtering the Jedi Knights and masters with his new-found Dark Side powers?! (And, to reiterate my point to Rebo, the music was so epic-sad and all I could do was laugh at it...surely something had to be wrong when a die-hard Star Wars fan just...laughs at it?

    I do happen to think that the "Order 66" plot device as a concept was pretty neat - if Lucas had woven it into the narrative before it happened. We already knew the outcome, so why not establish the order so that it doesn't feel exceptionally contrived? Man, did the prequels suffer from the shoddiest scripts this side of Planet 9.


    Thanks. I hope it can live a long time. Yoda-long time.
    I really enjoyed reading your post, by the way. For someone who already knew the originals thoroughly (I could at the time quote the entire Episode IV from beginning to end, chronologically... lol) it's interesting to see how TPM was perceived by someone without those "rose-colored glasses" (or "-tinted", whatever). I usually advice new people who ask about the films now in the lead-up to VII to watch the original trilogy first, and the jump right to The Force Awakens.

    You know, I couldn't agree more. III as bad as it is, seems to get a free pass for some reason. It is at least as shoddy as the previous two, and commits some of the greatest crimes of them all, and, as you pointed out, Anakin Skywalker's turn to the Dark Side is the worst. Once III was done I realized that each and every character from the original trilogy that was linked to the prequels had been diminished: Chewbacca, Yoda, the Emperor, Anakin, Threepio, Artoo, all of them had their character ripped out of them. A possible exception is Obi-Wan. It's telling how amazingly good Ewan McGregor is. But the diminishing of established characters if of course another topic entirely. They say Lucas raped my childhood; I say Lucas raped his own creations.
     
    #16 Ree Yees, Nov 18, 2015
  17. Rebo

    Rebo Nearsighted Whill Guardian
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    I agree with the majority of this.

    First, I'm not sure if you were implying Williams was imitating Lord of the Rings in his creation of Duel of the fates. But Fellowship didn't come out until 2001, so that couldn't be possible. Instead, I do think Williams was purposely imitating very lazy director's favorite classical piece to throw in a movie...Orff's Carmina Burana. But that being said. Those two choral pieces are probably my two least favorite portions of PT scoring. Although Duel of the fates is far more compelling than Battle of the Heroes. Battle of the Heroes is likely my least favorite Star Wars theme. So I'll give you that. Its like Williams took everything good about Duel of the Fates and threw it out. (In my more tin foil hat like moments, I see him as doing this on purpose to reflect the squandered potential noticeable when you look at the action peak of PT in the Maul duel, and how it never met the potential it created there by giving a bland reinterpretation during a bland Obi/Ani battle).

    SO, I agree. Those peaks in the PT scores are lower. But I award them a higher standing for their consistency. Not just in major themes ( I do really liek Across the Stars and Anakin's theme) but in minor themes (Trade Federation March and its more interesting cousin The Arena Battle/Order 66) but in how Williams expertly crafted those themes and additional melodic work into the texture of the incidental music. Whether it be the chaotic texture in an action scene (Grevious chase, Jango Fett battles, podracing) or the way he managed to bring majesty to the far to many establishing shots and exposition scenes. Some of the best crafter music in the pT can be found in unimportant or poorly executed scenes. Whether its the soothing lullaby like background in Yoda and the Younglings, the beautifully crafted composition of The Meadow Picnic in AotC. Or the creepy backround texture found in Padme's Ruminations or the Opera scene (this one always amazes me as with any other composer the scene would be nothing but a low rumble, but Williams works in both the Throne Room from RotKJ and Yoda's theme in ways most won't even notice).

    Finally, to your point on how those scores were treated, I agree completely. Ben Burtt and George Lucas did a severe disservice to William's work. Especially in Attack of the clones. I mention the Arena Battle piece before, which which hardly made teh film but Williams was so pleased with he reused it fro Order 66. you mentioned the Conveyor belt which is horrifically scored in the film, but excellently handled on the bonus track that was available with the original score. The main issues here were that Lucas kept editing well after completion of the score and would fit whatever he had to make the scene work. Something he also does in the OT (check out all the repeated pieces in Cloud city) but far less frequently. The other main issue was Ben Burtt's control over the sound editing. If you watch teh special features for the PT he makes it clear in many places that he is emphasizing sound effects over music, turning down the score track or sometimes eliminating it completely as he did in the Arena battle.

    So yes, to clarify my statement. I believe the original scores to AotC and TPM are better than RotJ. Not necessarily the final soundtracks. Mostly for the reasons listed above, but also because I find RotJ to be a generally weak outing with a few great peaks. But Luke and Leia is my least favorite theme from the OT. I don't mind the Ewok battle. But its the filler where I find it lacks.
     
    #17 Rebo, Nov 18, 2015
  18. Lazlo

    Lazlo Rebel Official

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    I have to comment on Anakin's transition to Vader

    I always had a real hard time with it, as many have pointed out. Then I had the realization that Anakin was always bad at the core, just like Yoda pointed out at his first examination by the council.

    When you see Anakin as a bad figure trying to be good, and ultimately failing, it works better and we see Palpatine merely providing strategic pressure, being the ultimate manipulator.

    Something to keep in mind the next time you watch the PT. There are still plenty of shortfalls but it holds up better when watched from this perspective
     
    #18 Lazlo, Nov 20, 2015
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  19. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    I always like to hear the other side as I hoped I maybe missed something and could watch it in a different context.

    My whole beef with the turn is it happens and then he slaughters everyone in the Jedi Temple 5 minutes after that and it's just too much of a shift for me to be believable.

    You have a scene before that he is talking to Mace telling him Palpatine is the Sith, and then he turns evil and kills all his colleagues?

    This was a turning point for me as I sort of defended the PT before ROTS saying it would all make sense after Episode 3 so just be patient. And the turn scene was the turning point for me where essentially the PT story crumbled cause it was such a pivotal scene.
     
    #19 Jedi77-83, Nov 20, 2015
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  20. Jedihopper

    Jedihopper Rebel General

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    This likely would help, and viewing Anakin as a bad person who was trying to be good but couldn't might make things more...palatable...pun intended.

    However - you can't really do that when faced with the direct quotes from GL and the other actors that Anakin in Episode I is very, clearly, definitely a good kid. He's supposed to be good and goes bad. So it just kind of wrecks the whole thing unfortunately.

    You can do it, and it might make your viewing experience better (all for that!) but...it's really just pretending it's some other story than what we really have at that point.
     
    #20 Jedihopper, Nov 20, 2015
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