SPECULATION THE OFFICIAL SNOKE DISCUSSION THREAD

With news on the star wars website that Snoke may be underprepared to face Luke, what has he been doing, how long has he been around, has he been the master mind behind the sith all along.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 7, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 7, 2016 ---

@master_shaitan yeh just been looking up the death star being built it says that took 20years?

 

It chimes with my exact thoughts on Snoke that I have posted about numerous times before.

Snoke was an old Sith (likely Plagueis) who was badly injured and exiled himself in the Unknown Regions - living off of the power of the Dark Side to keep himself alive.

Over the years he watched the Empire rise and fall and he slowly regained strength. But when Anakin brought balance, the diminishing of the Dark Side weakened Snoke. It threatened his very existence. He is therefore forced to reemerge, sooner that he'd have hoped to.

He takes over the FO and they begin to spread evil again - putting the Force back out of balance. The growing Dark Side once again empowering Snoke. But with the events of TFA, Snoke is still underprepared. He is still vulnerable and if Luke comes back, he is a massive threat to Snoke. Snoke must then destroy the last Jedi.

This idea then allows for the prophesy to be fulfilled in ROTJ without contradiction as Snoke, a powerful Dark Sider who would surely cause imbalance was, at the time, inactive. He was merely concentrating on his own survival and not spreading evil thus not impacting on the balance of the Force.

Here's the image @FallenAngel refers to:

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 7, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 7, 2016 ---

Yeah the first one took 20 years. They made the next one in about 4 years!

 

what type of injury do you see Snoke of having had that took 60years to recover from, considering Luke and Anakin got maimed and had a replacement arms done pretty quick, if I'm not mistaken didn't Luke get a new arm on the millennium falcon?

yeh it does seem to be going that way

 

My thoughts are that the injuries were caused by Sidious and so extensive that he really should be dead. Sidious himself must have believed him dead....well, if it is Plagueis as I suspect, Sidious was confident that he killed him.

I think Sidious likely fried him with lightning hence having a very similar head wound to Sidious after Mace reflects the lightning back at him.

With Vader, he was badly wounded and probably would've died had Sidious not saved him and put him in the suit. But Snoke wouldn't have been so lucky. The only thing that kept him alive was his Dark Side will/technique that enabled him to cheat death - something that Plagueis obviously would've studied and already used to save others from dying.

 

@master_shaitan how do you see the kylo-ren move, timeline wise?

 

Darth Maul - the animal Sith who was a ferocious beast.
Darth Tyrannus - the political Sith who through the Clone Wars brought down democracy.
Darth Sidious - the chief villain who brought the galaxy to its knees over time with treachery and evil.
Darth Vader - The dark father who was the main henchman for the Empire

Darth Plagueis - the one who has plagued the galaxy and the skywalkers from the start. Like any disease, he is the source that must be destroyed. Only then can there be true, lasting peace.

Just a thought.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 7, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 7, 2016 ---

I think it's clear Snoke watched him from birth and from the beginning looked to turn him. Snoke needed someone who would be a physical match for Luke. Someone to do his dirty work for him. Snoke is physically vulnerable, his power is his knowledge. He used this to turn Ben Solo and then used him to destroy the Jedi.

Ben was born about 1-2 years after ROTJ, just when Snoke is forced to reemerge so it works out timeline wise as well.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 7, 2016 ---

I'm also guessing that so soon after ROTJ no one knew Leia was Lukes sister. No one would know Ben would be so powerful with the force. Yet Snoke knows about Ben from the beginning.This indicates an intimate knowledge of the Skywalker family. Who better to have such an intimate knowledge than the man that essentially created them?

 

food for though, are there any dangers of introducing some one in to the star wars world who has the power to create life do you think?
would he maintain a connection to the family in some way? so that he can sense them and where they are?

 

I'd imagine there could be an element like this in play. He must've have put something of himself into the act of creation.

My original thought on Plagueis was that he created Anakin behind Sidious' back and Sidious found out. Plagueis' plan was to allow Sidious to form the Empire but then use his uber powerful apprentice to destroy Sidious and take over. But Sidious killed Plagueis (or so he thought) and took Vader on himself.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 7, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 7, 2016 ---

The two biggest concerns regarding the ST were that it would diminish Sidious by having a new more lawful baddie and that the story will feel tacked on.

By using Plaguies, Sidious isn't diminished at all and the story has a coherent and relevant continuation.

 

just trying to get a time line clear in my head. could you add the events and dates I've tried to hash out as best i could one.

For simplicity i've just used (ad and bc)

sidious attacks plagues
45 bc - prequels

15 bc - original trilogy

0 ad - return of the Jedi (all Sith are dead)

2 ad - plagues reemerges

|

plagues - turns kylo-ren

|

26 ad - star killer made

|

30 ad - The force awakens ——

star killer destroyed.

 

BAD Before Anakin's death
AAD After Anakin's death

45 yrs BAD - Anakin is born (crazy that Anakin is only 45 years old when he dies!)

48 yrs BAD - Anakin arrives on Tatooine with his mum. (Window of opportunity for 3 years prior to be somewhere else and tie in with Plagueis - maybe he hid Anakin so Sidious wouldn't find out?).

36 yrs BAD - TPM. Sidious meets Anakin. I think Plagueis is killed around this time. Balance begins to slip.

26 yrs BAD - AOTC

23 yrs BAD - ROTS. Death Star construction begins. Force completely out of balance.

4 yrs BAD - ANH. Death Star construction completed and Death Star destroyed.

4-2yrs BAD - Death Star 2 construction begins.

1 yr BAD - TESB

0 yr BAD - ROTJ. Balance restored.

1 yr AAD - Ben Solo is born. Snoke emerges. FO formed.

5-20yrs approx AAD - Construction of Star Killer base begins.

11 AAD - Rey is born

16 yrs AAD - Ben Solo turns to the Dark Side. Luke's Jedi killed. Rey abandoned on Jakku. Luke goes to Ahch-To. Balance begins to slip.

16 - 30 yrs AAD - FO spreads evil across galaxy and gains power. Force goes further out of balance.


30 yrs AAD - TFA. Construction of Star Killer completed. Star Killer base destroyed. Force awakens in Rey. Luke found.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 7, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 7, 2016 ---

The other thing that makes me think Snoke lives off of the Dark Side is the metaphorical link with his super weapon - the Starkiller. The weapon literally takes the power of the sun, thus taking away the light leaving only darkness.

The light is a literal threat to Snoke. It's why he is so keen to remove it from Kylo.

I didn't like Leia's "there is still light in him" line when I first heard it. It's silly, not how people talk. But considering the above, it's probably why the term was used.

 

@master_shaitan were you putting the establishment of the knights of ren?

 

Very hard to say. Snoke might have established them before ROTJ but there are issues with that. Did they come from the Acolytes of the Beyond? Maybe. Were they a group that existed independently of Snoke that he took over? Perhaps he quickly assembled them after ROTJ and then 16yrs or so later made Kylo their master.

Really couldn't say.

 

@master_shaitan

so we have a 28year gap

kylo-ren being born

starting training

being found by plagues

being turned

—knights of ren—

becoming there leader

kylo-ren not having completed his sith training/ been named a Darth


it might be a problem to say plagues knew through darth/anikin about lea,(to get to ben solo) because vader didn't know about lea until the last minute, and even the vader luke telepathic connection didn't help vader find out about lea, so that one might be a push.

so we probably still need to establish a date they came in to contact in some way?

 

This thread looks very interesting BUT is to hard to me.I don't know that much about this topic.I prefer my cookie thread and watching Bruce Lee playing Ping-Pong....

 

Yeah that's true. My thread "how did Snoke knew Ben has Skywalker blood?" deals with this issue.

Snoke clearly knew from when Ben was born that he was a Skywalker though so something must've happened soon after ROTJ. I'm wondering if Snoke actually got close to the Skywalkers, deceiving then about who he was.

 

Before I begin, I would like to place the blame on my gullible mind (combined with the many unanswered questions from TFA) for what you are about to read, but everyone has at least one ludicrous fan-theory in their lifetime, right......?

Anyway, what if Snoke envisioned Vader as the original master of the Knights of Ren?

Due to the similarities between Vader and Kylo Ren, i think Snoke could've wanted to join forces with Vader initially - out of admiration for his dark side accomplishments. However, that admiration eventually turned to resentment when Vader showed compassion for his son (something Snoke did not foresee) and as a result, his focus was forced towards Ben Solo - making sure this time he doesn't succumb to the light like his grandfather did.

But what if Snoke had been pulling the strings this whole time (even before the events of the prequels) ? A puppetmaster. A supreme intellect. A guy responsible for the destructive conflict that would unravel in the galaxy, a guy responsible for the path of both Vader and Sidious, controlling their destinies and shaping events, with the view of ultimately gaining control of the galaxy. An ultimate plan for the eradication of the Jedi, decades in plotting, that would almost come to fruition; It hinged on one moment in ROTJ between Vader and Luke. If Vader had killed the son, the Empire would've prevailed and the dark side would've reigned supreme over the galaxy...but it didn't. Vader's weakness put a dent in Snoke's plan, and his fight to eradicate the Jedi continues on to this day. Do you really think Snoke was off doing something else this whole time? That he decided to just casually show up right after the death of Sidious? No, it's likely Snoke had been paying close attention to exactly what had been unfolding.

I see two reasons why Snoke didn't reveal himself (or interfere) earlier:

1. His vulnerability.
2. His plan was already being carried out by Sidious.

To expand on point No. 2, let's compare the plans of Sidious and Snoke:

Sidious's plan

• Seduce a young Jedi Knight towards the dark side for the purpose of hunting down Jedi.
• Build an army and a superweapon to control the galaxy under dark side order.

Snoke's plan:

• Seduce a young Jedi Knight towards the dark side for the purpose of hunting down Jedi.
• Build an army and a superweapon to control the galaxy under dark side order.

Coincidence? I think not. The reason Snoke's plan matches exactly with that of Sidious is because the plan of a Jedi hunter, an Empire, a Death Star were all Snoke's ideas from the beginning!

Snoke was one step ahead of Sidious, and if it weren't for that meddling Luke Skywalker, he would've gotten away with it. Due to the repercussions of Luke's actions, Snoke could no longer hide behind the face of Sidious, now was the time that he had to reveal himself, he would not let all his work go to ruin, he would not let the power of the dark side slip away due to one moment of foolishness by Vader. He would now re-enact his plan, he would now seek revenge against that troublesome Jedi.

"The historians have it all wrong. It was neither poor strategy nor arrogance that brought down the Empire. You know too well what did.” Ren nodded once. “Sentiment.” “Yes. Such a simple thing. Such a foolish error of judgment. A momentary lapse in an otherwise exemplary life. Had Lord Vader not succumbed to emotion at the crucial moment—had the father killed the son—the Empire would have prevailed. And there would be no threat of Skywalker’s return today.”

Has Luke touched a nerve, eh Snoke? Why does he feel the need to defend the strategy of the Empire? Has he got inside information that others weren't privy to?

Snoke secretly active during the prequels?

It's unlikely that Snoke was directly involved in the prequels, but on the off chance he was, let's explore what he could've been up to. I'll freely admit that the following theory is entirely far-fetched, but I thought I would post it anyway just for fun.

First, let's rewind time back to before Anakin was even discovered, and let's assume Snoke was still vulnerable and at the periphery of the events that were unfolding in the galaxy. With the mischievous Sidious plotting to overthrow the Republic, Snoke aware of Sidious's plan, felt things were brewing along quite nicely........ until a time came when he experienced a series of brief visions, granted to him by the force, that made him re-think things entirely. Those visions portrayed the future of a young boy that would become an unstoppable cyborg, one that would bring an end to the Jedi Order.

Snoke realised this boy would change the course of history, and that he must fulfil his future destiny. However, Snoke couldn't be the one to train him - he was vulnerable, and couldn't afford to be detected by Sidious. Consequently, Snoke recognised that Sidious had to be the one to train him. But how would Snoke alert Sidious to the presence of this amazing boy without drawing attention onto himself?

Well, what character helped in the discovery and freeing of Anakin Skywalker, who also happened to help Sidious build an Imperial army? What character gained information over a sustained period of time on Anakin, Palpatine, Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, the Jedi Order, the Senate, the Republic that Snoke himself would've been interested in? What character was stuck right in the middle of what was unfolding in the galaxy, but managed to massively swing the destiny of the force in favour of the dark side?

Jar Jar Binks, of course.

Yes it's absurd, but consider the damaged hyperdrive in TPM that forces them to go to Tatooine, and how absolutely pivotal it is to the entire Star Wars saga. Without that incident, the Chosen One most likely would never have been found and none of this mess would likely have ever transpired. The hyperdrive was never explained as to why it was broken, in fact the generator went MISSING, and both Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon remark on sensing "a disturbance in the force" when discussing this.

If you watch the video below (around 22 to 25:45 mins), you will see a few scenes that revolves around this leaking hyperdrive, that Jar Jar just oddly happens to be involved with.

Or this sequence below (4:36 to 5:00) , where does a gungan from Naboo, who seemed a complete fool up until that point, learn how to repair a podracer? Why was he trying to fix it? Lo and behold, the engine that he was working on just happened to fix itself in time to help Anakin win his podrace, thus commencing his future destiny.

This post isn't about bringing Jar Jar back for the sequels (I don't really want that to happen), the purpose was to try to uncover the plan of Snoke and what he could've been doing all this time.

I think I will end this here, before I start embarrassing myself....I mean delving further into what I think Snoke's past was, and how he possibly had an even stronger connection to the eventual fate that would materialise in the galaxy.

 

the betrayal is actually 23-24 yrs AAD. Rey abandoned is earlier.

Snoke's had his claws in Ben "since the beginning". it feels to me like he's deliberately left just enough Light in Kylo Ren to keep him unstable. it's the only way to protect himself from Ren's power (he doesn't want to be Palpatined).

even if Ren has only exclusively been Snoke's lapdog for the last six years, that's plenty of time to snuff his light and stop him from being so conflicted (and certainly train him how to control his impulses). but throughout the movie (and supported by the book/script) Snoke taunts, badgers, insults, and humiliates Ren. it's a very typical abuse dynamic. he wants Ren's power, but he can't let Ren actualize his full potential.

only when he's threatened by the real possibility of Luke's return does Snoke decide maybe he should shore up Ren's training.

i think they're just trying to balance the reference to the Dark side with its literal opposite (instead of saying "there is Good in him" as Luke did with Vader. it's just a way of giving balance to the mythology that the OT didn't provide.

 

@kb93

I was with you this far dude.

 

This, along with Palpatine and Snoke's parasitic lifestyle -- sustaining themselves through the darkness done by others while draining power from their apprentices and the galaxy -- cause me to see Palpatine and Snoke as something of Force vampires.

Beyond that, Snoke does look zombie-like. I don't think this is all that accidental, especially if Snoke is revealed to be Darth Plagueis or something of a comparable ancient / reanimated nature.

There's an interesting quote that seems to fit well in this particular line of speculation: "The zombies aren't dead, but they should be. They're relentless and oblivious to pain, and they continue to attack even after losing limbs. Usually, anyone the zombies kill returns as a zombie, so they quickly evolve from a nuisance to a plague." (source: http://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-myth/strange-creatures/zombie.htm/printable)

Imagine if Snoke / Darth Plagueis wishes to eradicate the Light via an actual plague of Dark Side Force.

While there are legendary (yet rather interesting) references to Force Plague and Force Vampire in Star Wars...
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_Plague
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_Vampire

...interestingly enough, there are canonical zombies in Star Wars:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Zombie
http://www.starwars.com/databank/nightsister-zombies
see also http://www.starwars.com/databank/old-daka

Perhaps the "source of the Dark Side" is none other than Snoke himself, and, if the Dark Side is on the brink of extinction, this is why he has mustered what little strength he has and is using Kylo Ren as a vessel through which he might be able to reconstitute the Dark Side.

No wonder, if Rey is a new "Chosen One," she could be fast-tracked by the Force itself to work with Luke to stop that from happening.

And no wonder Snoke is unprepared. His physical strength might only be offset by his knowledge of the Force. But now that Luke Skywalker has perhaps found the first Jedi Temple and done some major research in his absence, he has information that could bring Snoke's misappropriation of the Force to a decisive terminus.

Lots (almost too much) to consider and speculate about until we receive more official information about Snoke and Rey.

JediMasterRobert

 

Love this.
I completely agree with the vampire symbolism. And that info on plague is compelling.