There is a genuine backlash building against The Last Jedi

TLJ was a beautifully crafted film but a really bad SW film....all the stylistic and story telling elements were there to appeal to a general audience who didn't care beyond the film they are watching..... but we have to remember that nostalgia and traditions are a BIG part of SW whether certain lines appear in all films as a wink to the fans, the Wilhelm scream is heard or fan favourites turn up etc...most of which were thrown out of the window.

While nobody expected outright pandering to the fans, what we got was Luke, the hero of a whole generation (who taught people about forgiveness and persistence) deciding to run and hide without even trying once to save/redeem a fledgling dark side family member despite going out of his way and risking his life to save a much more dark side parent...people waited from the early 1980s to see Luke ignite the green and fight for hope and the light..... all we got was a flashback of this where the green is ignited as part of a momentary lapse. There is a difference between not overshadowing new characters and making old characters look bad ... this was veering towards the latter.

This movie was a love letter to Kylo Ren and I enjoyed his character arc the most of the lot...however, we barely got any insight into his past so his deciding to kill his uncle's students because Luke ignited the green seems a little weird....It would have helped if we were somehow shown there was a build up to this moment beyond Luke seeing hints of darkness in Kylo. Also, I was upset that Kylo never answered why he killed Han....for a redemption, there needs to be contrition...so either RJ wanted Kylo to appear remorseless and ruthless or we are supposed to feel that Han Solo doesn't matter at all, another slap in the face of old fans.

And Rey...while she got better treatment than Finn and Poe, she spent a good portion of the movie storming off from Luke and later Kylo....basically she took over Kylo's role in TFA of striding around getting upset. I really liked her interaction with Kylo but she easily got talking with the guy who killed her father figure and slashed her best friend's back (which she conveniently fails to confront Kylo about)... I would have preferred her seeing Snoke shout at Kylo through their bond, which could have made her feel sympathetic and built up to her trying to understand him better.... talking to him just because a bond exists felt forced, and again makes Han Solo's death seem insignificant.

Finn was in the same loop as he was in TFA with him trying to flee, interacting with Poe, getting manhandled by cute geek Rose instead of geek Rey this time, completing each other's sentences, Finn telling her he needs to get a tracker to safety, going with her on a journey, landing up in a place with shady people, facing his fears and having a fight with one of the FO leadership (Phasma instead of Kylo). So are we getting Finn running away in episode 9 and fighting Hux for an encore?

And Poe....suddenly the character who always put the mission above everything else, believed in hope, was inspired to follow his mother's career, has plenty of female friends and thinks the world of his female boss Leia is turned into some angry fly boy who rages around disobeying orders and kicking chairs. Again, I would understand if the characterization of Poe matched previous canon but this was a complete 180 degree turn in his characterization, just like the J-turn he made in the beginning of the movie in his x-wing.

And while he was wrong to disobey orders, his action took the lives of around 30-32 resistance members (10 bombers with 3 people in each and 2 fighters as seen on Leia's screen) but wiped out 1000s of FO people and a destroyer with long range cannons capable of orbital bombardments of a planet.....imagine if he had not taken out the destroyer....in the first lightspeed jump, the FO would have tracked them and blown them all up anyway using the long range cannons on that destroyer...instead, the resistance got a reprieve of 18 hours based on fuel reserves to keep out of the FO's firing range. While Poe deserved the slap and demotion for disobedience, his call actually ended up saving lives. Overall, it felt like Poe's character was shoe horned into this weird angry arc just so Rose could go in his stead to Cantonica with Finn to give him the moral lecture and free fathiers.

I'm not even going into Leia's 'I'm Mary Poppins Y'all moment....but I liked her overall arc and it was lovely to watch Carrie Fisher on screen...shed many tears o each of the three occasions that I watched the movie.

Holdo's actions were also weird....while I got that she might not trust people outside her chain of command including Poe, but it was strange that she didn't even trust people in her control room like Connix who had just received a promotion.... the very fact that a large potion of the resistance took part in the mutiny points at one thing- Holdo was a bad leader and her big speech did little to inspire confidence. And did Poe want power and control? No. He wanted to keep Leia and the resistance safe, Rose's plan was the only one he had (his conflict clear when he holds comatose Leia's hand) and the mutiny was his last ditch effort to buy them time to disable the biohexacrypt. All this got lost in the badass flyboy hates his new lady boss message....and the resistance are not a bunch of chauvinists since they all joined to support Leia (definitely a female) in the first place.

Overall, I understand the fan backlash... this movie completely undermines 2 years worth of stories and lore in canon materials (including TFA) which people have invested in financially and emotionally, and tramples on characters loved by the fans for decades (I'm looking at you Admiral Ackbar, who didn't even get a decent send off and a passing one line mention as a eulogy)

For the newer fans I have only this to say....based on how Disney/LF has treated characters people have loved for decades, you might as well mentally prepare yourselves for your favourites to either be completely ignored or to be killed off like cannon fodder when they decide to bring out new movies and want to make their shiny new characters look good.

 

Another thought I had on this topic:

I think some of the legitimate (i.e. non-bot/troll-driven) reactions against TLJ is directly proportionate to the high degree of expectations many of us brought into the cinema.

In that regard, the surprise-driven plotting of TLJ, however it could have worked out over multiple variations, was destined to upset some fans.

I also expect IX to not fulfill everyone's expectations. It is a difficult thing to write a story which can please the majority and avoid any major criticisms.

Going into TLJ we had much more information than we had with The Force Awakens, and many times more speculations based on those interpreted bits of information.

Major theories and preferences formed, producing entire sub-communities promoting various theories (e.g. Rey Skywalker, Rey Kenobi, Darth Plagueis), and that made it an exciting speculative venture as well as a chance, if such expectations were unmet, for there to be major disappointments.

In a way, it does point back to the lesson of the cave on Dagobah:

what you take with you (literally or psychologically) directly affects what you experience.

 

Well said. I thought the movie was well made. I thought the Snoke scene was beautiful (His throne room)
But it's like they didn't even know the characters they were working with. Like you said about the way they took out Ackbar. The bridge blows up, I didn't even know Ackbar was in it, then they mention among the dead were whoever and general ackbar, then forgets about him. As if he wasn't a huge part of taking down the empire or one of the most popular star wars aliens.

Rian Johnson said he is a big fan, but I REALLY doubt it. No big fan would want to disrespect Mark Hamill and his beloved character Luke.
Honestly Johnson must've gotten entirely cocky after Looper, because I'm sure if any of us were somehow put into a position to direct Star Wars, Luke wouldn't be treated like that.

He's probably the type of fan that thinks the 'no, I am your father line' is 'Luke I am your father'

 

Yep, same here. Going back for viewing #2 this week some time.

 

Your focus determines your reality.

 

I still have a problem with this statement. Define "many". Show me one poll in which the majority of those polled dislike the film. Even RT audience score, the majority liked the film. IMDB, with many more voters, shows a higher % that liked the film.

I'm done.

Out.

 

Even more beautiful in theatre though

Can't find a full HD photo of the scene

 

I don't think the people who didn't like the film are just a "vocal minority." The drop off in ticket sales first to second weekend prove that out.

I'm really happy for people who enjoyed the movie, I wish I could share in your joy over the movie.

Saying the majority loved or hated the movies based on online comments or reviews is pointless. The box office will tell the tale. Although that will probably still lead people to pick whatever stats support their initial position. TLJ lovers will just look at total sales and see a big number as proof people loved it. TLJ detractors will compare that number to other SW movies and if it doesn't hold up to that standard they'll use it as proof people didn't like it.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 27, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 27, 2017 ---

Many doesn't have to mean majority. SW should be a crowd pleaser. Do you think Disney is happy if 30-40% of people, particularly fans don't like it?

I don't know why those who loved TLJ are so quick to dismiss those who didn't. No one I talked to 100% loved it (my sample is roughly the 3-4 35-40 year old that I know who are big Star Wars fans, so I get this isn't a representative sample or even the demographic Disney cares about). The reactions ranged from "I f-ing hated it" to "I loved some parts, hated others, I'm not sure how I feel about it all."

If you loved it that last great. But I don't think you should dismiss those of us who didn't, I'm pretty sure Disney isn't.

Please don't respond with saying how Disney doesn't care what some people think. Disney wants to make as many people happy as possible, that's how they make the most money.

 

I am not dismissing anyone. Just questioning the use of certain terms like backlash and many people disliked it. That is all.

 

While I cannot completely trash Star Wars, and there are some good stuff in the ST- it really is just a big let down ultimately. Nothing is overly fresh and unique. Disney has really painted itself in a corner by adhering to the aesthetic of the OT. I think, honestly, it's damn near run its course. IMO, JJ better pull out all the stops for Ep. 9.

 

I really believe this is true, but I think it also entirely depends on how one feels about Luke.

That's why professional reviewers love it as a fantastic movie, but many fans seem to see it as a poor ending for a beloved character. This binary opinion will probably persist until life-long Luke fans shuffle off this mortal coil.

 

Funny, every actual human in the real world I've talked to has hated or disliked it. I guess it's not that surprising since people tend to hang out with people of like mind. That said, as much as they've hated it, they just don't want to talk about it. I'm the only one I know of who's bothered to go online to talk about my dislike of it for example. That said, I've always been more of a SW geek than most of them.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 28, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 28, 2017 ---

My nephews are SW heads and in their mid teens to early 20s. When I was a teen or in my 20's I wouldn't have time to go on a site to express my dislike of a movie. I'm telling you, there's a quiet hatred for this movie that isn't being calculated.

 

Way too much confirmation bias going on here from the haters. You're overstating the depth of dislike for the film. It definitely isn't in the bogus RT user score range, but it probably is higher than the vocal minority disdain for TFA or the Original Trilogy.

ALL audience measuring devices that required the user to have watched the film show scores in the 85-90% range. It is a well-liked film (for now), not a loved film. That is not a surprise, considering that it took some serious risks with its portrayal of multiple characters.

Never forget that the people most likely to post on internet message boards (and in the old days, write letters to the editors) are those who have negative impressions. So it always was, so it always will be. You're going to get much more dislike here, and in much more concentrated portions, than you will get among the general public.

If you didn't like it, that is fine. Maybe in the future you will end up on the "right" side of history in terms of how TLJ is viewed. Right now, you're not - deal with it and don't pretend that you are in the current majority or even in a large minority. You're not, and you don't have to be.

 

Yes, good old JJ to the rescue.....the same person getting shredded for Ep 7......

 

Oh, I know it! One of my sons is a bit older than your nephews, and works as an engineer for the Empire. He's surrounded by SW fans & he wouldn't even go see it with us, his friends & co-workers hate it so much. I think people who aren't as invested in the franchise (including movie reviewers) think it's a great movie, though. We'll see which view prevails in the end.

 

You're in a lot of trouble when you're relying on the person to fix things who originally screwed them up.

JJ's a franchise killer. He did it to Star Trek, now he's doing the same thing to Star Wars.

 

And all you mofos are LOVING that!! Seriously, some folks are reveling in the fact that TLJ is losing steam. Good on ya!

I am not in denial about the fact that folks aren't coming back over and over. It's not a really kid friendly 'go see it again' movie. I get that.

But those who actively want to see it crash and burn........I just don't get you. I think I understand you, but I don't. Maybe tearing down a beloved institution is your thing. I don't get it, but I don't get the Apple cult either, so.....yeah.

Perhaps we can agree that we just don't agree and call it a day.

 

The dude speaks the truth, as always.

All of you coming into a site dedicated to Star Wars, dedicated to what we love, to post with almost inexplicable glee the latest poll or box office result which puts TLJ into a negative light....what is your goal? What do you hope to achieve?

 

The Dude always speaks the truth. Always has. Always will.

May the Dude be with you......always.

(I've got a bad fee..................oh junk it!!!!)

 

There's a lot more to Star Wars than aesthetics.
Disney may have bought the rights to the GFFA, but they didn't get it's soul.
That belongs to Lucas. And his influence, for better or worse, is why these new films only look like Star Wars, but don't feel like it.