Three Classic Planets Will Be Seen Again In The Star Wars Sequel Trilogy

But Luke already learned that "the Dark Side doesn't forever dominate your destiny" in the OT.
I just can't see what Luke could possibly learn about that makes him doubt his training in the OT. That is unless they go down this light/dark route that goes against everything Lucas created.

If I were Luke Skywalker and I saw my family going down the swanee once again, I'd likely look into our origins.
And what would Luke find? That his father had no father - and that he could've been created by the Dark Side itself.
If Ben Solo caught wind of this, wouldn't that make sense as the information he discovers that pushes him further to the Dark Side?
And would Luke not be annoyed that his father, Kenobi and Yoda never told him about these mysterious origins?
This is really the only information I could think of that actually makes sense. I don't buy this stuff about old fake artefacts - what has that got to do with anything?

In the OT the Jedi had already adapted. That was the point of the PT and the ending. The idea was that Qui Gon was right all along in his methods and was proven right by being able to attain his consciousness after death. Yoda and Kenobi then went back to trusting in the Force and waited for the right time to return to the fold. Yoda taught Luke how to resist the Dark Side, how to avoid becoming the evil he has sworn to fight against, how to let go those things that prevent you from being selfless and compassionate. Luke went on to help redeem his father and destroy the Sith - and Dave Filoni, the creative mind behind a lot of the new Star Wars lore, says that this in fact was Yoda and Ben's intention all along!

But now the PT and OT Jedi had it backwards and Luke has had to go and find some old Jedi artefacts to show how they used to do it? That notion in itself is bizarre. Progression is about moving forward, evolving. Not going backwards and seeing how the ignorant people of the past did things.

For me this is about The Skywalker's origins - I've always felt that if you're going to continue the story beyond Anakin bringing balance then you have to deal with his origins. Before that, as Lucas said, you could interpret Anakin's origins however you liked. But now the Force has gone out of balance again and his family are at the heart of events, we need to know - did the Force create Anakin? Did the midichlorians create Anakin? Or did the Sith create Anakin? And if we're going to avoid talk of midichlorians (which I think is absurd as they've essentially always existed) and if we don't have another chosen one - then it can only really be that Anakin was created by the Sith. And if anything is going to persuade Ben Solo that his destiny is on the Dark Side, then it is that!

 

Maybe Obi-Wan and Yoda had never heard of 'The Tragedy of Darth Plagueis The Wise'.

 

I like this.

 

I'd like to know how long Alan Dean Foster took on writing that Journal of the Whills poem (assuming he wrote it). Has anyone read enough of his books to be able to say whether he usually writes poems? Is it worth analysing or was it just something he dashed off as an afterthought to name-check the Whills?

My first instinct is to say this is just a bad poem, but I suppose it may be that the oddities are deliberate and meaningful.

The first 4 lines talk about day and night. There's no hint that this is anything other than the natural way of things (except possibly the ABXB rhyming scheme where "darkness" causes the disharmony (i.e. prevents it from being ABAB).

The second 4 lines suddenly suggest that something is wrong with this natural state of affairs, by talking about it being "made right". But why would anyone want to "make right" a "difference", especially a difference which is akin to day and night (i.e. a natural difference)? A "disturbance" sure, but what is wrong with "difference"? Who are the "they" who say this? I suppose given what "they" say the most likely answer is the Jedi. And what "they" say is that the situation is "made right" through the "resolving of gray". "Resolving" is an unhelpful word that could either mean that the gray has to be separated back into dark and light or that creating the gray is itself the resolution to the problem. I suppose given that it is the "difference" between dark and light which needs to be "made right" it probably means that gray is the answer to the problem.

The difficulty with that conclusion is that gloomy twilight is not a very convincing solution to day and night. So the poem doesn't really make much sense or tie in with what we know about the Jedi.

Tongue in cheek, I suppose we know this was written by the Whills and that the author has distanced himself from the second quatrain's message by the use of "they say". The Whills presumably don't agree with the Jedi on every point or what would be the point of them being a different group? The only way this makes sense then is if Book 7 of the Journal of the Whills isn't called the "Force Awakens", but rather "Where The Jedi Went Wrong"...

 

Hidalgo stated in his twitter rant that the Jedi at the end had started to regard the Force as a sort of paint by numbers religion. His example was with the use of midichlorians. The Jedi teachings in general had gotten away from the more spirital aspects, giving numeral values to those spirital concepts.

As hinteed in the OP, I think Luke has found a way to combine the best of both worlds, perhaps using ancient knowledge.
Compare it to the Ancient One in Doctor Strange. Every sorceror is told that the Dark Dimension is off limits. However the most wise - the Ancient One herself - acually draws power from it. Perhaps Luke has found a similar way of holding the darker aspects of the Force at bay.
I don't think Luke is evil, as I believe he will never be, but storywise it can give the other characters a sense of reluctance towards him, when they meet him again.

Long story short, what if bringing balance to the Force is not achieved by an individual chosen one against another group, but has to be achieved by every single Force user within itself?

That way a Force user - every Force user - is not light, not dark, not grey or any other color, but in true symbiosis with the Force.

 

That's the PT Jedi - sure, I accept that. But not the OT Jedi. They had already adapted and learned and taught Luke accordingly.

I just don't understand this concept.
To use the light side is to act compassionately and selflessly. To use the dark side is to act with hate and greed. The latter, in any good fairy tale, leads to oblivion. In Star Wars, those that wield the Dark Side invariably cause the Force to go out of balance because they spread their evil everywhere. A Jedi should udnerstand that they do have a Dark Side but train themselves to continuously let go of it and not act on their dark emotions. That is what the Jedi do and that is what they teach Luke in the OT.

I just don't get this idea that Luke for some reason learns that it is good to use the Dark Side a little bit. How? And where would that lead him? It just goes against everything Lucas has set up.

But the Force was brought into balance. Anakin brought balance when he destroyed the Sith which prevented evil from running amuck. If they decide to change that, then your point might stand but I for one would be disgusted by this corruption of Lucas' story. The balance is not about the balance within or between force users - it is about the Force as a whole which is formed from the energy of ALL LIVING THINGS. The balance is disrupted when evil is everywhere and outweighs good. Balance is restored when good and evil in the universe are equal. But a Jedi can only bring this about by using the light side. it is their role to destroy those who spread darkness and if the Jedi start using the dark side themselves then they won't be able to restore balance. I mean, the idea of the PT Jedi is that they inadvertently used the Dark Side or at least empowered it. Yoda learned this and adapted their ways. He then taught Luke who went on to become a Jedi by doing exactly what he was taught to do (let go, be compassionate, selfless, don't give in to hate). I don't see any good reason for Luke to go against this and start looking at ancient Jedi ways where they incorporate the Dark Side.

Stat Wars has ostensibly been about good vs evil, love vs hate. Are they really going to change that to this weird idea that the best outcome is a mix between the two. Sorry, I don't get it!

 

First off, you keep mentioning this like Yoda and Obi Wan just changed their whole perspective after the events of the PT. Who is the one to say that? Based on the things they teach Luke in the OT, the directly quote and use teachings from the PT. In fact, considering Yoda's age, one can assume that he would be completely resistant to change. I think you're thinking about the light vs dark side of their teachings when it could simply be logistics that Luke is actually concerned about.

I agree that Luke probably is not looking for a way to incorporate the dark side into his teachings but perhaps just changing antiquated rules which he thinks don't make sense for the new Jedi Order. In fact, when he is looking into the ancient Jedi, he is probably looking into things a long ways before the PT maybe back before the Jedi had become so Pharisaical with their rules.

For an example, Yoda mentions that Luke is too old to begin training. Why is he still holding onto this rule? If they've learned from the Jedi Order of the PT then why do they still follow most of the code to the letter?

 

Unfortunately it seems that is exactly where they want to take things. You now have Bendu who is not light side or dark side---whatever that means. It is nonsensical.

 

This news has me really excited for episode 8. Im very intrigued by the idea of expanding the mythology of the force and the ancient jedi, and I love the idea of Luke questioning what he thought he knew as a plot point.

That said I really don't think we're going to delve back into the chosen one business many are debating tho. That story line has been told. I think we're headed forward with new and interesting plots worthy of a sequel trilogy.

 

Yoda at the end of ROTS and in the Rebels cartoon. And just the very nature of the Jedi in the OT, literally reconnected with the living force.

It's not a rule, but more of a guideline. It's considerably harder to teach someone who has lived a normal life of attachments and lack of discipline than it is to teach a child. Yoda quite understandably is reluctant because if Luke falls to the Dark Side then matters would be worse. This is just sensible. Luke had to prove to Yoda that he was disciplined and ready to become a Jedi. He failed in TESB. Really this isn't about some Jedi rule to not train people over a certain age but rather it is about these people being equipped and ready to train as a Jedi. There is no reason to throw this line of thinking out. Being a Jedi is a hard life. A life of sacrifice and discipline. It always has been.

I just cannot see what the OT did that was so wrong and would require Luke to find some cryptic message in old fake artefacts!

Yoda realised the Jedi were wrong to fight the war. He realised they lost focus on the living force. He realised they needed to trust in the Force again and not be so focused upon their great cosmic power. But the ideas about not using the dark side, being selfless, letting go - that is what a Jedi is. If a Jedi isn't those things, then they are not Jedi.

 

I think you guys are reading way to far into the OT Jedi vs PT Jedi teaching thing. I took this story's general gist as Luke discovered something to question his understanding of the Jedi. His understanding of the Jedi could have come from anywhere, perhaps after ROTJ, not just specifically what he learned from Obi-Wan or Yoda. I mean quite honestly, I never got the impression they tought him about the Jedi order at all. Rather they thought him the force so he could confront Vader. "Already know, that which you require" - Yoda.

I'm sure there will be more back story on Luke studying the Jedi order in an effort to rebuild after ROTJ. That I think is what this story is referring to.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 22, 2017, Original Post Date: Mar 22, 2017 ---

That's exactly how I took it.

 

I completely agree with everything you say, @Darth Holmes (you are making the wisest contributions in this thread, IMHO.)

I don't think this info means that Luke's crisis of faith infers that he believes Obi-Wan and Yoda were wrong. But, one has to take into account that in all these years between ROTJ and TFA, Luke must have talked at length with his former masters AND Anakin. I mean, who knows what he could have told him?
Or, maybe ALL OF THEM discovered something during Luke's quest that made them ALL question their beliefs. For example, can you imagine Luke learning that HIS FATHER was a creation of the Sith, and then telling that to Anakin, Obi-Wan and Yoda? I think the four of them would feel pretty devastated. And just think about Ben Solo's reaction from those news. Omg.


My two cents.

 

Darth Plagueis is in this trilogy.

 

we still don't know where the writers really want to go with all this Bendu staff, etc...
But - given what we have - I came to opposite conclusion, meaning that "gray" is not the balance but the problem.
The riddle the Jedi have to resolve. It takes to long to explain here. But let's us say... chances are different.

However, I think if the rumors about the planets are true - one's for sure: Anakin/Vader has to play a part i the ST.
And my guess it's the prophecy too.

@master_shaitan , you're right: the PT+OT gave a clousure.

The thing is, the ST came.

And though it is possible, Snoke & company are a new threat (so no influece on the "PT-OT" clousure),
I guess the novels may let us to think otherwise.
Maybe the prophecy is not fully accomplised.
Maybe something went wrog or wasn't possible to fix 30 years before TFA (-> this wil start to make things right).
Not to mention... time travel plot (which I really guess it's on cards)

In addition If people still debate about
1- the Chose One prophecy
2- Anakin Birth.
Then the answers weren't fully satisfying.

I mean... I agree with your explaination of the C.O. prophecy as it was portrayed till now 8PT+OT).
However if people still have doubts, maybe something more can be add and on doing so, you've got a ST storyline fully connected to both PT and OT.

As Colin Trevorr said :
“[Episode IX] is something that needs to honour a story that’s been told over a period of 40 years,” he added. “I don’t want to ignore any of it, and I respect all of it. It’s something I think the fan base is going to embrace.”

 

Please no, I beg you LFL, no time travel!

 

As you stated "balance is disrupted when evil is everywhere and outweighs the good. Balance is restored when good and evil in the universe are equal."
So destroying evil can't bring balance, because that way the good prevails over evil. Though for peace and all this sounds like a good thing, but it also means balance is tipped towards good. In other words, no balance at all. That's why I got the idea of a balance within every force user. I say force user because although the force flows through everything, not everything or every being can influence/ manipulate it. So regarding balance, they only can experience the overall consequences.

Because, at the start of the PT, the Sith had been gone for a millennium, the Jedi didn't have any real adversairies to match ther powers. Many became arrogant, as stated in AotC. So yes, I agree that some of them inadvertently had been using the Dark Side. And yes, Yoda's revelation in RotS (more so in the novel), comes from this. However, it has not directly to do with using the Dark Side, but more with the idea that in a 1000 years, the Jedi became lackluster, too sure of themselves. Their teachings hadn't adapted to modern times, if you will.

On a side note, I don't think Luke got all that good a training, because I think he was only prepped to destroy Vader and Palpatine. That was the more pressing matter. All other teachings had to make way for that. Perhaps it was Yoda's intension to proper instruct Luke after he destroyed the Sith. Unfortunately that we can never know, because Yoda passed away (unless it's gonna be a journal of Yoda comic or something).

[Storywise this has to do, I think, with the fact that in the OT we got spirital knowledge and advice and they called it Jedi teachings, passed on by Obi-Wan and Yoda.. It was only during the PT that they really created the Jedi order, with their rules and such.]

So after Vader and Palpatine were gone and during a relatively peaceful time, of course Luke is going to set out and try to unearth as much about the Jedi as he can find. Obi-Wan have him the beginning principles, with some history. Yoda expanded upon this. But, as I stated, the main purpose with Luke at that time, was to destroy the Sith. It was his choice to try and redeem Vader, in which he succeeded. So I think he feels there has to be more to the Jedi than he learned at that point. Perhaps he even thinks at certain points Obi-Wan or Yoda were wrong.


What started as trying to explain myself became another rant, so hopefully you can make some sense of it )


To end this whole bunch of words, it would be interesting to see that Luke indeed found older teachings, perhaps ancient, before the Republic. He learns about another way. And speaking of another way, as I stated in other comments on this board and site, the Story Group is already exploring this, whether you like it or not.
The Mortis dwellers, the Force spirits Yoda meets, Bendu, Nightsisters, in some ways Kanan & Ezra, even Maul; all these characters are Force Users, not quite like Jedi or Sith.

I do think we should prepare that in the coming movies the concepts of the Force, the Jedi and the Sith will be altered to fit in the greater story..

 

That's not what I was saying. It's not about destroying all evil - but destroying evil people who spread evil everywhere.
Before the Sith, good and evil are balanced. The Sith emerge and empower the evil over good. The Jedi destroy the Sith and good and evil in the galaxy are equal again.

That is how the balance works. That is what Lucas set up.
I'm hopeful they won't stray from this:

"Without the Jedi there can be no balance in the Force".

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 23, 2017, Original Post Date: Mar 23, 2017 ---

They simply have to stay true to Lucas' concepts though. And I guarantee that in his contract he had it written that his films couldn't be altered in any way.
Anakin brought balance to the Force when he destroyed those (the Sith) who were empowering evil over good in the galaxy.
What has happened now is that evil has risen again in the Jedi's absence. And this has been a direct cause of Vader's legacy.
This is why I think Luke would look into his own families past and discover something terrible that explains the curse that has blighted their existence.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 23, 2017 ---

But all these other groups fit somewhere in between the Jedi and the Sith. The whole point of these two groups is that they were the top dogs of either side of the Force. The Sith were masters of evil. The Jedi masters of good. The Sith use hate, anger and greed. The Jedi use love, compassion and selflessness. It's even established how these other groups didn't stand up at all vs the Jedi and Sith. Sure, there are other understandings of the Force but the Jedi way is really the only way to truly combat those that look to oppress the galaxy.

People seem to just vaguely point to old teachings and ways that Luke could learn - but what are they? I literally can't think of some great bit of advice that contradicts anything Yoda says to Luke in the OT. It's a nonsense to suggest that Luke would be a more successful Jedi if he finds a balance between light and dark - whatever that means! The Jedi must be about compassion and selflessness over hate and greed. This means loving and caring about everything and everyone. Luke learned all this in the OT. And whether the Jedi wanted him to kill his father or not (Filoni thinks not) it is irrelevant - they taught Luke how to be a Jedi and in the end he became exactly that by acting in the way they taught him to act. And even if he did prove them wrong about his father, then that is something he learned in the OT and yet still smiled upon his mentors ghosts at the end of ROTJ. To then say that he learns years later that the Jedi were wrong about that being a cause for his issues with them is fatuous at best. For me, this has to be about the origins of his family. It's the only thing that would make him doubt himself, his family and also be a motivating factor in Ben's fall to the Dark Side...

 

"Without the Jedi there can be no balance in the Force".
This was said by Lor San Tekka, a follower of the Church of the Force. Their ideals stem from the Jedi Order. In other words the old ways. To be clear, I agree with you: Lucas' rules should be held sacred. However, as I said before, the Story Group is expanding what we know of the Force as told in the movies. So I believe by the end of the sequel trilogy, their ideas have come to fruition. Meaning, Luke has found a new way. He is the last Jedi (old ways), as well as the first new Jedi (new teachings, encompassing whatever Luke has learned after RotJ.

About the terrible thing Luke has uncovered, yes, I think it's very plausible he learns that his father has been created by Palpatine/ Plagiues, using the Dark Side. And again, I don't want to use the term Grey Jedi, but I do think Luke will find a third way, not the light side, not the dark side. Something new that will restore balance once and for all, making the sequel trilogy the end of the Skywalker Saga.

Edit: Just after posting the above, I saw your reply.

People hint vaguely at those old teachings, because nobody knows if this is what's gonna happen (although we know he went to search for the first Jedi Temple). At this point it's all theorizing.

To put it simply; just as Obi-Wan and Yoda altered their teachings from PT to OT based on their experience, in the 25 years after RotJ, Luke could have done the same.

I think learning something about his family doesn't necessarily have to do with learning about ways of the Force before the Sith. This could happen later, also giving a reason why Ben left his uncle.

 

This.

Once Ben Solo turns to the dark side, thus Luke fails as a jedi master, he must have questioned himself: "Why is it that we all fail some way or another in my family?"

I know Anakin redeemed himself and brought balance to the force, but before that he turned to the dark side, betrayed and kill the Jedi, technically murdered his wife and mother of his offspring, and become a Dark Lord of the Sith and stayed that way for DECADES before reedeming.

Ben Solo turned dark as well, and as a consequence, Luke failed as a master, because he didn't foresee nor stop this, just like Kenobi and Yoda failed with Anakin.

So, there's definitely a pattern for Luke to be like: "Well, what the heck?"

I think all of this connects with something Leia says that Luke explained to her in the novel Empire's End:

Spoiler

When she feels through the Force that little Ben has a little bit of darkness in him even before being born, she remembers that Luke told her that "the brighter the light, the darker the shadow." Not the exact quote, but along those lines.

The Skywalker lineage is so powerful that ironically becomes extremely vulnerable to the Dark side of the Force.

So maybe Luke wants to find the way to eliminate that weakness of his family.