SPECULATION Twisted Ending

So are you advocating a Luke is really the bad guy twist here and Ben/Kylo is really good?

In my honest opinion, due to the speculative theories floating around they'd probably have to come out of left field to surprise anyone with a twist. There are theories Rey will go to the Darkside, Kylo will be redeemed, Luke is really the evil one, Snoke will be killed, etc.

I saw a video a while back about a theory that Kylo will kill Snoke and Rey would fight Luke on Ahch-To and leave him for dead while being on the run from both the Resistance and FO. I found it humorous and told my wife, "That'd be super bold if they went that route and I could see the world exploding as a result."

 

No, I’m not.

Luke doing a bad thing doesn’t necessarily make him a “bad guy”, in the same way that Ben/Kylo doing a good thing doesn’t necessarily make him a “good guy”.

I’m saying that this trilogy is about choice and moral values, and so blurring the lines in such a way as to have the “good guy” do “bad things” and the “bad guy” do “good things” gives us that moral ambiguity that we had when finding out that Vader is Luke’s father. People make mistakes and do the right things for the wrong reasons (and vice versa).

I’m not saying that we’re getting something Earth-shattering on the same level as “No, I am your father.” There’s so much rampant speculation that that can’t be pulled off on everyone these days, and it previously being speculated about doesn’t make it any less of a twist; I’m sure that there were probably some who speculated that Vader was Luke’s father prior to seeing TESB.

 

Ok, Gotcha.

Although, I would say I didn't see much of that in the OT. Maybe in the PT, but not in the OT. It was pretty black and white as far as characterization goes.
Yes, as you say, the reveal in ESB may have caused some to question the absolute evil nature of Vader, but that was pretty much the only character.
There wasn't much that caused you to question Luke or Leia, for instance.
Han was always presented as sort of a morally grey character who leans more towards good than bad.
Chewy just sort of followed Han.
Lando was presented much like Han.
Everyone else sort of fell along their expected lines. Boba Fett, Jaba, Sidious, Ackbar, etc.

But even so, you may be on to something as to Ben/Kylo's original motivation or simply the catalyst that drove him to where he is.

 

This is exactly what I've been speculating as well. I think we're going to find out that Ben is conflicted for a very good reason, and that something happened which DROVE HIM to the Dark Side beyond the usual thirst for power.

 

i've been arguing that this point of what happened to Luke's efforts is the actual twist. i've never believed Ben just flat out killed Luke's pupils (though it's entirely possible he did). but not without something provoking it--not that Ben's actions (if he did act) are justifiable, but that we don't really understand what happened. was it an accident? did Ben implode after learning about Vader?

Luke should feel responsible since Ben was his pupil, but does it go deeper? is it even worse? did Luke and Ben quarrel? did Luke drive Ben away? did Ben try to explain that there was something more to everything only to have Luke poo-poo him about it? Luke's line in the trailer:

Spoiler

it didn't scare me enough then seems pretty much like a direct reference to a mistake he made. perhaps not just merely underestimating Ben, but reacting poorly to Ben's "special" needs.

Snoke was able to get his scummy mitts on this kid because Ben was vulnerable, because Snoke was offering something he didn't have and needed desperately: support, validation, and a path to channel his perceived purpose.

my question from the start is: why didn't Luke provide his own nephew with these things to begin with--or if he tried, why didn't Ben respond?

 

I’ve been arguing this for a long time too, so it’s nice to know that someone out there agrees! just thought it was best to contextualise it in such a way that more can see our point of view.

And exactly: all we’ve seen Kylo Ren do is bad thing (killing Han) after bad thing (killing Lor San Tekka), and be told that he’s done bad things. The film almost goes out of its way to make Kylo Ren just be bad. It is Ben’s humanity and conflict which makes him relatable, and, interestingly enough, we are told nothing about Ben specifically, if he and Kylo are to be treated as two different caricatures in the same way that Anakin and Vader are.

And I think perspective, and understanding that we know very little about Ben’s past, is key to understanding what happened. I mean, the film makes the point of showing us Kylo and the Knights of Ren surrounded by corpses, and the immediate and easy link to make the first time around is that this is the destruction of the new generation of Jedi that Han described in the Falcon. But was it really the new generation of Jedi that we saw there? Probably not. Likewise, in Bloodline, the immediate and easy connection to make is that Leia’s thoughts that learning about Vader being his grandfather could send Ben over the edge were spot on, and this is the point where Ben becomes angry and loses it. But Luke and Ben had responded with nothing but silence for a long time — is this really what sent Ben over the edge? Or are the Story Group feeding us the little pieces that could lead us to the answer in the form of what seem to be misdirects?

Precisely. Hey, what if Ben told Luke about having nightmares and that something like Snoke had been calling out to him, to which Luke responds by saying that there can’t be? That he knows enough about the Prophecy of the Chosen One to know that his father brought balance to the Force? And so Luke leaves it alone...before everything goes terribly wrong, and so we find him on Ahch-To, trying to learn about what the Prophecy really said?

Yeah, it almost seems like his mind was elsewhere from the little we’ve heard about the situation. Hmm...

 

i honestly wonder if Luke's optimism made him blind to Ben's troubles. did Leia tell Luke about Snoke?
was Ben ever even actually symptomatic of being "troubled" or did Leia just sense it and fail to deal with it?
Han seems to agree that Ben has issues, but what were they?

we still really don't know why and when Ben got sent away and what the family dynamic was like.

i don't doubt everyone behaved with the best intentions ~ even Ben!
but it's not the kid's responsibility to articulate his fear/trauma/psychological problems.
it's his parents and his guardians who should have been looking more carefully after his well-being.

 

It seems that our "Big III" had too much of the "bigger picture" in mind and they had to deal with the "big" troubles of the whole GFFA. So they didn't care enough about the "smaller" troubles within their family.
Not enough time to listen and to be there while their son developped fears and started to loose his faith.
Asking himself:"Did they tell me everything I should know about the past?" or quite similar questions that came up while growing up between all this "heroic" figures.
Perhaps all of them recognized sthg but when they started to really care it was too late allready.
Missed opportunities with huge impact.

 

I’ve argued before that the “big twist” could be that Luke made a mistake or poor decision/judgement which somehow led to his own pupils’ deaths... Not only did Ben not kill them, but this moment actually turns Ben against Luke and is the catalyst for him turning to the Dark Side.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 27, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 27, 2017 ---

Hear me out here, this is all purely hypothetical but here's one way my idea could go down:

It's revealed fairly early in the movie that Ben Solo had a love interest, another Padawan that was training under Luke alongside him. We maybe even get a flashback or two of them together during training and we see their love for each other. We as the audience begin to wonder, "If he was so madly in love with this girl, how did he kill her?"... And then in the big reveal we find out that Luke in fact was responsible for the deaths of his Padawan through some sort of poor judgement or bad decision, and Ben was the only survivor. The loss of not only the other Padawan, but the love of his life, makes Ben hate Luke for what happened, and drives him to Snoke and the Dark Side.

 

Trying to keep expectations on a huge twist low..

 

Hmmm. Turning "evil" out of love did not work the first time around. I'm pretty sure they make other mistakes but not the same mistake two times.

 

The “mistake” was only in the execution in the prequels. If you don’t think losing someone you love would be a powerful enough motivation to turn to the Dark Side, idk what to tell you really. Again my idea is 100% hypothetical but I don’t see how that would inherently NOT work.

 

the whole conversation is reflective. we don't know what they talked about when it was happening. or even if they talked at all.
Han could be agreeing there was too much Vader in him given how he fell.
we also know Leia hid the fact of Snoke from Han prior to Ben's fall, so even if Han had an inkling then, there were secrets Leia was not sharing about what was wrong with Ben. and again, we have no idea if Ben was obviously visibly troubled, or if it was just something Leia sensed/feared in him. and we have no idea if she shared any of that with Luke. yes, she sent him because she was worried, but she admits it was a mistake, which seems to indicate that there may have been a lack of transparency as to why she did it in the first place.

interestingly, the only semi-solid image we have of Ben as a kid is that Leia remembers him as a happy child.
she also isn't the least bit concerned about him in Bloodline until the news of Vader hits, after which she completely falls apart.

 

Love it! It would truly be a huge twist is Kylo takes down Snoke! Everyone thinks Snoke is the big bad that won't be defeated until EPIX. If he goes down in TLJ and Kylo assumes the role of big bad, that would truly be a "holy blast!" moment for me!

 

These are not "twists." They are revelations of information, character deaths, or simple plot advancements, and all fairly predictable ones at that.

A twist would be where something is revealed to be not at all what was previously established, with no hints or foreshadowing beforehand.

I always love a good twist in a film, but my expectations for TLJ are reigned in, in that area.

 

the number of actors who have expressed surprise about what their characters are doing in TLJ is interesting.
anything could happen at this point and it's very exciting!

this weekend when i was trawling through Domhnall Gleeson's interviews, i found his reaction to reading the TLJ script very curious. he said he went right away to Johnson to ask what the heck, but Johnson talked him into it. i am characterizing that poorly, but in essence, Gleeson walked away from the conversation reassured.
some people have taken that to mean Hux is going to die in TLJ.
but what if it's Hux who kicks up the threat level after plotting silently in the background all this time? : o O

even if that's not the case, i am having a hard time thinking of what Gleeson might have been concerned about.
@RockyRoadHux? you probably have ideas. spill! : D

 

fat chance of her spilling the beans... but i bet she knows!

 

Totally agree with this.

 

I do foresee a big twist that will shock everyone and change what we know about the Star Wars universe.