SPECULATION Was the prophecy fulfilled?

damn it!.. you DP lot really do have an answer for everything, thought i'd got ya there

i've got to be honest.. i imagine like a great many on here, i have a tremendous amount of 'Legend' floating around in my head and i'm not that clear on what's 'canon' anymore.

is the prophecy that a 'Jedi would come.. destroy the sith.. bring balance' ? or is it something along the lines of a child of the force will save us all?
is destroying the sith and bringing balance a Jedi interpretation? there used to be a Sith interpretation of the chosen one also.. perhaps gone in legend now (or only ever existed in my head lol) - but it certainly was fascinating that Maul excitedly asked Kenobi if he was protecting the chosen one on Tatooine.

i'll also say (and this backs you up and invalidates my question in a way) that the 'force' would not create a being to destroy the sith... the force would purely act according to balance. What Anakin did was up to Anakin.. he could listen to the will of the force.. or not. He could have killed Luke, Leia and Palpatine as Vader and still been alive in the ST... had that happened, it's possible that the force would have created another child of the force.. and another, and another until balance was restored.

 

We have an answer because it makes perfect sense!!

I believe the prophecy was merely a prediction that the Force would go out of balance, that there would be a period of dark times and someone would be born with special powers, who would bring it back into balance.

And so before the events of TPM the Jedi knew of this prophecy but didn't likely put much heed into it. They thought the Sith were extinct and so didn't believe anyone could challenge their power and unbalance the Force. But then the events of TPM take place, the Sith are revealed to be around again and so the Jedi start to think that maybe the prophecy could come true. Some could even feel the balance slipping - and come AOTC and ROTS the balance is out and it seems obvious to the Jedi that it is the Sith that are causing it - hence why they say that bringing balance = destroying the Sith. They believe, correctly, that it is the Sith doing this and that when these Sith are destroyed, balance will return. The misread bit applies to Anakin - will he actually bring balance. The Jedi lose faith in Anakin but in the end he does do the job.

So yeah, for me the prophecy was a mere prediction of dark times and the restoration of balance by someone special. The Jedi interpreted this further as being about destroying the Sith - and were proven right.

As for the Sith interpretation - I'm not so sure. It sort of goes against the way the Sith think and act to suggest that there could be this prophecy that relates to bringing balance. The Sith like to control the Force, not listen to its will.

Exactly. This didn't matter before the ST but now we're dealing with a continuation of the story it has to be looked into. And I think you can tell by the way it has been tackled in the novels, that the thing that makes the most sense is Sith creation or The Force striking back. I don't really see the Force predicting the imbalance and creating Anakin before it happens in the hope he would be found and destroy the Sith. Why not just give Sidious cancer?! I also think, like you say, if they create one chosen one, why not one every time bad stuff happens? Nah, for me Plagueis and perhaps Sidious got up to no good and Anakin was the result.

 

i've always preferred to think that Anakin became the chosen one because he turned out to be the one that fulfilled the Jedi prophecy.
I have never believed that he was created by the force to kill Palps.. rather more simply that the force gifted a being with the tools to be able to restore balance.

perhaps... force sensitivity is given only as the force becomes out of balance. perhaps.. the reason there were hundreds of Jedi and force sensitives during the PT is because the shadow of the Sith was unbalancing the force for decades. I'm not sure when Dooku went over to the dark side.. but perhaps this was a big tipping point for the balance of the force and the force needed to churn out a stronger force sensitive? yeah.. i'm spitballing

i also think that if a kid grows up being told that he is some kind of galaxy saving chosen one... he will be screwed up and do the opposite. The PT Jedi failed in so many ways.

 

I think his power was the indication that he was the chosen one mentioned in the prophecy. It's what made Qui Gon realise who Anakin must actually be. Notice how Qui Gon doesn't bring up the prophecy, but rather Mace does when he hears about the boy:

YODA : (Cont'd) Master Qui-Gon more to say have you?
QUI-GON : With your permission, my Master. I have encountered a vergence in
the Force.
YODA : A vergence, you say?
MACE WINDU : Located around a person?
QUI-GON : A boy... his cells have the highest concentration of
midi-chlorians I have seen in a life form. It is possible he was conceived
by the midi-chlorians.
MACE WINDU : You refer to the prophesy of the one who will bring
balance to the Force...you believe it's this boy??
QUI-GON : I don't presume...
YODA : But you do! Revealed your opinion is.
QUI-GON : I request the boy be tested.

So from this I deduce that the prophecy must've contained some information about the special abilities the chosen one will be born with.
Again, it is just a prediction and has no baring on how the chosen one was created.

 

i'm saying that what the Jedi called a prophecy... was obvious. the force will pump out force sensitives when it's out of balance.

force is a bit out of balance... let's keep throwing minimal force sensitivity out there on random beings who have the ability to fix the balance.

it becomes further out of balance.. throw a big wad of force sensitivity (midichlorians if we must use that word ) at a single being. (perhaps this happened 900 yrs ago and resulted in Yoda?)

at the time of Palpatine.. there were hundreds of Jedi. reason.. the force was out of balance. The Jedi may not have sensed Palpatine.. but the force would have been out of balance for years and years before Anakin arrived.

Anakin becomes Vader, Jedi are being wiped out.. force now mentally out of balance. it either needs serious counselling.. or it needs to pump out some more strong force sensitives to try and balance it all up again.

Anakin has 2 children.. the force drops a big assorted pick 'n' mix bag of midichlorians on them.

19 yrs later Luke does what he does.. Anakin kills Palps and comes back to the light before dying.

So we're left with 2 strong force sensitives on the side of Light... and we now know that there is still a strong dark side user out there in Snoke.

force is nicely balanced.. lets get drunk, dance with ewoks and play drums with storm trooper helmets.


ok, so between ROTJ and TFA...

Snoke starts to become more active after Palps kicked the bucket and the force becomes a little out of balance.. Luke has joy finding trainable force sensitives because of this.

Snoke force invades Leia during her pregnancy with Ben.. this knocks the force further out of balance

Rey is born.. force gives her midichlorians 'a' plenty.

Snoke turns Ben and Luke loses all his trainee Jedi.

Kylo Ren now doing evil things, Snoke doing bad things and galaxy living in fear of the First Order... Balance completely out of whack again

The Force 'assists' Rey in finding Luke


Now..
force is out of balance badly, the force has enough sensitivity on the field to even things up.


simples

 

*JJ Voice* I'm going to saaaaay....no.

I don't think numbers of Jedi and Sith have any bearing on the natural occurrence of Force users. As Lucas and I believe no JJ has said, everyone is born with a connection to the Force. Some are just more naturally attuned to it than others (midichlorian count). Anakin was anomaly because he was more powerful than any other being that had ever existed. Yoda's midi count was 20,000. Anakin's was off the chart.

Again, there are always Force users around. It's just without Jedi or Sith training they have little influence in the galaxy. Another interesting quote from the Plagueis novel:

"Forceful beings will continue to be born".
"In the absence of training and brainwashing, they will pose no harm to us. You will see to that Supreme Chancellor Palpatine".

The Jedi and the Sith are always the main players because of their knowledge. And this knowledge brings greater power...and with greater power comes great responsibility!

 

i'll be brutally honest.. i read it back and stopped half way because it hurt my head

i had to take it up a notch to try and give @master_shaitan a head ache

ermm. no, not really. my post wasn't about the numbers of beings so much.. it was about the level of (damn me for constantly using this word) midichlorians 'out there'.

it pumps out more trainable sensitives when the balance is a bit off.. and steps it up the more balance is off.

i don't know... i'm disagreeing with my own thoughts as i type em

 

Since the movies themselves can't even explain what the prophecy actually meant.......

It's like GL did the same thing the Wackowskis did, just write themselves into a quagmire by emphasizing a prophecy element. The Matrix did fine, and then mucked itself up. Even the Harry Potter books revamped the initial prophecy thing into the horcrux stuff.

 

I'm joing late the party, beacuse this thread deserve a deeper analysis and as always in those cases it's a bit hard for me
to translate in an acceptable English my thoughts.
I'll try my best and sorry if it's going to be long

@TheGreyandTheRed I'll take this chance to reply to the comment you send me few days ago in the "is Luke rey's father" thread.
As you're going to see, I believe this may be a better place.

@master_shaitan: The Force didn't give Sidius a cancer... because of free will. That's the point. The all point, as I'll try to explain.

However..
I'll start with this:

1- @TheBBP and @master_shaitan pointed something we have to accept. The prophecy according to GL and the SG was fulfilled.

2- That doesn't mean we are done with the prophecy and Anakin's story arc.

I know it looks like a contradiction, but I believe it's not.
That because... of free will

The Theme (the main) literature has explored along centuries - from the greek tragedies, to Dante, Shakespeare, to
Dostoevskij - is in fact, that of humankind's free will.

The big question being: is there a predetermined Destiny/Fate humankind cannot help but follow?
Are we pawns on a chessboard that "cosmic forces" use to play their game, or are we something more?

Of course philosophy did that too.
(if you want.. see the debate between Shopenhauer and Nitzsche about this to better understand Wagner "Ring of Nibelung" tetralogy
that I believe it's been heavely used by Rian Jhonson as ispiration for TLJ).

One of the answers is that, sure, without Good there cannot be Evil and vice versa.
But that out of "necessity" (in its philosophical meaning).
In fact, without them as separate entities there's no choice humankind may take between Good and Evil.

Meaning there's no space for humankind's free will.

While if there is separation, thus space left for humakind's choices, there's a free will that can possibly align itself to
a "Supreme Good" = "Supreme Will" that stands beyond the (needed from this pov) dichotomy Good/Evil.

That's the philosofical theme GL explored in the PT (Anakin's fall), in the OT (Anakin's redemption and Luke's choise)
that's the theme he wanted to be even more explored in the ST.
Mark those words "even more".

But before going further, for the sake of this conversation, I have to say that I believe that the ST we're seeing is still
- no matter what - a GL's 3rd trilogy. I mean at least the core of it and the end game too.

And if so, it's the 3rd act of Anakin's hero journey.

- PT: departure
- OT: initiation
- ST: return (metaphorical, symbolic or actual)
________

Little Digression:

@TheGreyandTheRed
I don't think that in GL's vision a chapter (trilogy) or two is/are a tragedy and the last one a comedy.

If we look at the whole picture (1-6 when it used to end at 6 and now 1-9) the SW Saga is a "Comedy" according to the use of the term in literature.
As an italian, I cannot help but notice that the best comparison may be done in fact... with the Divine Comedy.

Dante called its opera "Comedia" - Commedia in modern italian - and nothing more (Divine was added later, by Boccaccio).

The reason being - in Dante's own words - that it starts with a difficult beginning for the protagonist but it ends with an happy ending
and according to him in the literary tradition Comedìa was the term used to definy those kind of works. And what is the Commedia about?

A hero's journey in 3 stages/acts.

- Hell: Sin/Fall
- Purgatory: Purification/Redemption
- Heaven: only then full understanding of the supreme truths of faith and union with God.

I believe that in the SW Saga too, every chapter is meant as a stage of the same hero's journey.
It's a progression. It must be a progression.
Parallels and mirrors (I use "mirror" as an equivalent of "reverse" because that's what actual mirrors do: they reverse images) are
tools, that you may find in the Commedia - one of the greatest, if not the greatest, poetic work ever wrote - too. The end meets the beginning, but the goal is still a progression.

In fact, if the protagonist is always the same, as it must be - otherwise it's not the 3rd act of the very same tale - then he doesn't have to pass the same trials again.
Not even symbolically or metaphorically, if you don't want what he went through to be pointless.
He gained a wisdom. And that wisdom has to be returned to the "ordinary" world.
__________

If so, that the prophecy was fulfilled and that Anakin was the Chosen One is something they are not going to change.
And Rey (and/or Kylo) as a second coming of the Chosen One - in less than 100 years - would change Anakin's special status.
It would diminish his role. And - again - if so then this wouldn't be Anakin's hero journey anymore.
Sure, you may believe that's the case.

But to me, the main evidence that he's still the chosen one and only and the protagonist of this saga, is...
That it's not by chance that we are still debating around the notion of balance and if the prophecy was fulfilled or not.

Those notions/questions were left vague or enough vague by purpose.
Those are not plot holes, those are plot choices.

We're not done with the prophecy and Anakin as "the" protagonist of this tale because GL always meant a 9 movies saga, a Trilogy of
Trilogies, because that's how monomyth works: 3 acts, 1 protagonist, 1 "Comedy" (see above).

Therefore after the OT, he did the PT (not the ST) to set those plot points.

Sure they get answers in the OT, but they are left vague or vague enough, because if the ST would have come one day, that would have been
the right time and place in the opera to fully answer those questions.

It is also worth to notice, that there's another plot point left vague: that of Anakin's birth actual circumstances.
It's left vague in the movies, but we know George's idea on the matter and it looks like the SG holds care that "idea".

To recap

- What's Balance?
- Was the prophecy fulfilled or fully fulfilled or not?
- How was Anakin conceived?

Why those questions? Let's save the last one for the finale and look at the first two.

Balance between Light and Dark. That seems to be the point.
I guess it's not. Or not only.

Balance between Light and Dark, Good and Evil it's only a pre-condition for something else, more important.
And that's why it was so important to restore Balance in Ep. VI.
In the sense that at the end of the OT there weren't Dark Side users anymore, whose purpose was to use the Force according to their own Will not that of the Force.
That's the difference between Jedi and Sith. The first ones should follow it, the second don't.

Balance, from this pov, is not synonymous of to erase Evil from the Galaxy, but just those whose purpuse is to impose their own will on that of the in-universe Supreme Good/Will, that of the Force.
Anakin did that.

In short, Balance was never meant as the Dark side to disappear.
That because as said before, there must be both Good and Evil to allow humankind's free will.

Therefore when it comes to the ST, to Snoke and the First Order, the point is not if there's been balance or imbalance in the 30 years between EP. VI and VII.
But that Snoke and the First Order are a far greater threat than the Sith ever ever been
and that's why Anakin's journey from Ep. I to VI was not only nevertheless needed, but even more so.

According to Lucas in 1983 and 1989:

"The main theme of the [sequel] trilogy would be moral and philosophical problems, such as the necessity for moral choices and the
wisdom needed to distinguish right from wrong, justice, confrontation, and passing on what you have learned"

Again, Lucas in 1983:
"In Star Wars, there is a very clear line drawn between good and evil.
Eventually you have to face the fact that good and evil aren't that clear-cut
and the real issue is trying to understand the difference.
The sequel is about Jedi knighthood, justice, confrontation, and passing on what you have learned."

First, we've have evidences that "free will" and "Destiny" are at the core the ST.

That's hinted in TFA and other canon material set in the ST era:

In Finn's story arc.
With Kylo and Hux debating if it's better an army of clones or an army made of brainwashed soldiers.
In the Poe's comic (Poe vs Terex).

- It's hinted by TLJ trailer:

Rey doesn't know what her destiny - "my place in all this" - may be.
Kylo thinks he does and he's willing to do whatever it takes
"Let the past die. Kill it, If you have to. That's the only way to become what you were meant to be".

And not matter who's addressing to when he says "Fulfill your Destiny", we also know that
Snoke's agenda is "the Dark to rise and the Light to meet it".

One side overtaking the other = Imbalance.
But Snoke's agenda is another one: it's light and dark to meet. Why?

Because this is what makes Snoke a far greater threat than Sidius has ever been.

Because if Light and Dark meet, then they are not separate entities anymore.
Then there is not a possible choise between Good and Evil. Light and Dark.

If there's no separation, not only it gets harder to distinguish right from wrong, it may become impossible.
To make that choise impossible = to deprive humankind of free will
That is Snoke's end game, because this is the greatest power one may get.
This is in fact, a power not even God (or the Force) ever took.

The Will of the Force, the in-Universe Supreme Good / Will beyond the dichotomy Dark/Light asks for Balance between
Light and Dark, because as long as they stay and they do it as separate entities, humakind is given of free will.
One may choose to align the inner, personal, self to the very same Will the Force, but not as its pawn.

Meaning not following a predetermined "Fate" / "Destiny" that cannot be avoided, but as a voluntary act, as a self choice.
Every man, woman, alien is given of the supreme gift: the chance to undertake a journey of trasformation from pawn in a chessboard
cosmic forces use to play their game, to Forces of Destiny (not a casual title for another in-universe serie and see also Rebels, all the story line Bendu-Kanan, but start to finish; and Rebels season IV trailer, Kanan "We were meant to be Jedi so we could be here now, when Lothal needs us most"]

The Will of the Force = humankind free will, between Light and Dark.

That is so much bigger. Light, Dark, Balance, but the Will of The Force (that manages it all) is so much bigger.

If Light and Dark are going to meet, to get closer, not so clear cut, then a great wisdom is needed to distinguish right from wrong.
The grey on one hand, the refined Jedi sight that has to resolve it on the other.
As said in 1983.

But why do I think we're not done with the prophecy and Anakin (personal) hero's journey?

I'll start saying, that I don't think Snoke = Plagueis (I think they're more clever than that)
But if the idea about his birth, is still GL's idea - and if it's going to be addressed in the ST - that is because
they're going to introduce something more into this tale:

In fact, if that will turn out to be the case, then the prophecy is at least... a paradox.

Had it not been written, Sidius and Plagueis wouldn't known about the Chosen One. Therefore they wouldn't tried to provoke
Anakin's birth (using Hidalgo's words). Therefore nothing we know would have occurred.

Therefore, a big question may arise: who wrote the prophecy and why?

Is there any chance that the old shocking secrets that we're going to discover in TLJ have somethig to do with this?
Maybe. Maybe not.
Is there any chance that the Supreme Intellect GL meant to be discovered in his ST as the one who conditioned the lives
of both Anakin and Luke and that of the Galaxy is going to make his appereance in this ST too?

“If you follow the direction, and project into the final trilogy [meaning not only Ep. VII-IX, but it all, from Ep. I to IX], you realise that you’re going to meet the
supreme intellect, and you think how is it possible to create a man who has such profound cunning that he can not only control
Darth Vader, but the fate of Luke Skywalker? Control the destiny of the whole galaxy? You’ll be amazed!” (Marquand 1983)

Maybe they are not interested in that. We've got nothing to prove they are or not.
But I believe they could very well re-introduce this plot line, for many reasons:
including to explain once and for all what Balance really is.

How? Well..

First, because the idea itself of a Chosen One, of his own free free will, is "the" philosophical problem.
And seeds to explore further this theme maybe are already planted.

See Yoda's arc in TCW.
Yoda did not foresee Order 66, the rise of the Empire and Anakin's fall. It's more than that: he was made aware of it all.

But the Forces of Light, didn't tell him what to do to avoid that from happening. Why? To preserve Anakin's free will, or
because there's free will for anyone but the Chosen One (meaning he was supposed to do exactly what he did, fall included)?
See the 2nd episode of Mortis Arc too: the Father's mistake - according to his own words - has been trying to change Destiny.
But what Destiny?

However, Yoda is chosen for another task. To learn how to become a force ghost and to share this knowledge with Obi Wan.
That because - as we know - at the right time Obi Wan would have guided Luke and led him to Yoda.
But if Luke and Leia were not even conceived by that time (that of Toda's arc in TCW), then the Forces of Light knew that was going to happen too. Is there any chance that it "had"
to happen, according to a bigger plan?

In addition, "Hope [=Luke as we know] it often comes in forms not looked for". And that's also the grey. Because "the key is
knowing how to see it and to seek that opportunity" and that's a refined Jedi Sight that has to resolve the grey.

Seeds planted in TCW finale.

But let's say they are not going to touch this (I'd love if they're) still Anakin's journey wasn't fully completed according to monomyth at the end of Ep. VI.
The prophecy was fulfilled.
His quest was complete. Not his journey.

In the Hero's Journey/ Monomyth:

That's the End of 2nd Act:

"The ultimate boon is the achievement of the goal of the quest.
It is what the person went on the journey to get.
All the previous steps serve to prepare and purify the person for this step, since in many myths the boon is something transcendent like the elixir of life itself, or a plant that supplies immortality, or the holy grail."​

In SW, this is how Ep. VI ends. It is the end of the 2nd act of a Trilogy of Trilogies.

3rd Act (Return):

"In the return section, the hero again traverses the threshold between the worlds,
returning to the ordinary world with the treasure or elixir he gained, which
he may now use for the benefit of his fellow man.
The hero himself is transformed by the adventure and gains wisdom or spiritual power
over both worlds"​

That's the story telling reason for having Anakin back in the ST.
The in-universe reason, being not that it was needed to have a time gap between ROTJ and TFA during which Light and Dark were in Balance.

But that the hero (Anakin) has to return from the other world - maybe not in a physical but only spiritual form - to return the wisdom he gained to the ordinary world (that galaxy far far away)
when it's more needed. Now.
Now that a greater threat than Sidius ever was, has came.

How? No matter who Rey's parents are, it was Anakin's lightsaber that chose her.
Compare it to this one:

"How render back into light-world language the speech-defying pronouncements of the dark? How represent on a two-dimensional surface a three-dimensional form, or in a three-dimensional image a multi-dimensional meaning? . . . How communicate to people who insist on the exclusive evidence of their senses the message of the all-generating void? (The Hero with a Thousand Faces, pp. 188-189)​

To use a metaphore, he (Anakin) my be like the Holy Spirit descending on the apostles after the death of Jesus.
And we're still in a progression arc: from fall, to redemption/purification/initiation, to return.

He's traversing the threshold between the worlds to return his wisdom for the benefit of the Galaxy: free will is and must be always granted.
Thus Snoke's agenda must be rejected.
In fact Balance is not Light and Dark meeting.

That is a wisdom the Galaxy need to be made aware of.

Because the characters are debating (Kylo "I'll finish what you've started") as much as we are what Balance really means and
if Anakin fulfilled or not the prophecy, without even having an in-Universe equivalent of George Lucas or Pablo Hidalgo
telling them that's the case indeed.

And that's why, I think there's a wrong focus in the fandom around Yoda's line about the prophecy being misinterpreted.

At that point of the story, when Yoda says it, it makes perfect sense.
We know, he and Obi Wan after III and at least until VI, thought that Anakin was not the chosen one.
Saying he's not, Yoda is misinterpreting the prophecy.

And usually in story telling prophecies are self-fulfilling as well as misinterpreted along the way.
Therefore, match.
But there is no reason to be sure this is not still the case. That the prophecy (in the ST) is misinterpreted.

What we can be sure about it's only that Luke knows his father was redeemed.
No one ever told Luke - on screen - about the prophecy.
We don't know if some one ever did that, after VI.
We don't know if he ever spoke again with the Force Ghosts, or if they were allowed to talk to him about it.

But apparently, Luke thought Ben Solo to be the Chosen One.

If that's the case and/or if Snoke has maliciously convinced Ben Solo that something went wrong with his grandfather task, then it would be a common and appropriate story telling tool.
Especially in a story that has to rhymes, etc....


To close...
About Rey and Kylo.
That's why I think they do not rapresent Anakin/Vader Light and Dark sides.
Those are gone.
He's now something else and more.

They may represent how the Skywalker bloodline or the Galaxy (if she's not a Sky/Solo) deals with his legacy.
But whatever the case may be, they are the "tools" - I know it's a bad word to name them given the roles they are playing -
to tell the story of how that hero returned.

Sure they're not his reicarnation.
As said, elsewhere, if he's coming again in flash and bones, then it's going to be him.
Literally re-born, but at the end of IX.

The belonging Rey's seeking ahead not behind.
With another miraculous birth, or with an actual father that cannot be Ben Solo for obvious reasons.

 

Sorry but...
Just found this, form The Ashes of Jedha, part I



"But even this must be as the Force wills it, as bad as this is, I have faith. This must be for a reason"

I'd say, other seeds planted in canon.

 

How much I miss her

 

I find myself unable to concur, it's looks rather obvious to me that Mace is adding 1 (virgin birth) + 1 (highest concentration of ...) = 2 (The Chosen One).

So the virgin birth is apparently a part of the prophecy (Lucas even went to great lengths explaining that it doesn't really matter whether Anakin was created by the Force or Darth Plagueis, suggesting that all that matters here is the virgin birth), but not necessarily the destruction of the Sith.

(That's something Obi-Wan *believed* or concluded in ROTS, i.e. there can't be no balance with the Sith).

 

Hum.... I was watching this because of the compass.
However, in the end

Del: Of course there's conflit in me, I'm not blind. I know what the Empire is capable of but...
what else is there?
Luke: The choice.
Guy: The Rebellion?
Luke: No. A choice to be better.

 

Yeah, you're right. Qui Gon is first interested by Anakin's obvious powers and this interest peaks when he hears that he had no father. Likewise, when Mace finds out that Anakin was created by the midichlorians, he instantly refers to the prophecy.