What's the point of this trilogy?

Absolutely this. The problem with the ST is that far too much is told in supplementary material. Not every movie viewer is willing to splash out cash on tie in books, comics and visual dictionaries. Or can afford to.

 

I don't think that analogy is appropriate at all.

What we normally call a mind trick involves a voice command compelling the subject to think what the trickster wants them to, say what they want them to and do as they are told. "The force has a strong influence on the weak minded" The other thing dispenses with the voice commands and is more like squeezing a recalcitrant tube of toothpaste until it gives up its contents.

The obstacles that fans try to put in the way, or believe should be there and have been ignored by the writers, are not spontaneously conceived by their impression of those various different skills and what it must entail to be able to pull them off. They are pmompted by the viewers desire to permit story and character development only if it directly replicates the perceived pattern of how these things must develop based on the time line of previous films. e.g. Luke didn't move objects until his second film, therefore a learner physically can't move objects until their second film or it breaks the "pattern"; Luke didn't perform a mind trick until his third film, therefore... and so on.

And that leads to people making up frankly cockamamie rules and analogies about magical powers, which have already been defined by characters like Yoda in a different way from those rules that fans choose to impose on them, in order to proscribe and invalidate Rey's discovery of her powers.

It's bunk. Discovery of force powers happens when the story needs them to be discovered. It's not the other way round. The sequel trilogy doesn't need to ration these things out in the same way as the OT. Those things were being revealed to the audience in the OT. Adhering to the same timetable as the OT when "revealing" things that have already been introduced movies and decades ago, in order to appease part of the audience's specious sense of propriety would have been foolish to say the least.


Maybe Rey has better midichlorians than everyone else.

 

Judging by what they are doing with her in supplementary material, that would not surprise me.

 

O . . . . . K. Well, whichever analogy works best for you, the point is that what we witnessed Rey experience with Kylo isn’t what we see her execute with the trooper. Grammatically, they’re disconnected. But the intended causality is that they’re directly related.

Basically, the logic of the scene is that Rey is attempting to replicate intentionally what she’d only managed reflexively to do with Kylo. And the product of that effort just so happens, by pure galactic coincidence, to look and sound EXACTLY like the ‘Jedi mind trick’ we recognize from other movies.

For a lot of people, that reasoning didn’t track. They didn’t follow it and came to an erroneous conclusion that supported this perspective that random preestablished abilities were being freely pulled from a grab-bag without respect to verisimilitude. That's not what's happening. But I definitely see how a lot of people went there with it.

I agree that’s certainly a contributing factor in this. People tend to have a hard time accepting concepts beyond what they’ve already accepted. But I feel there’s more to it than that. It isn’t just base pattern recognition. Stories are emotional relationships. We create intimate connections with them and engage on a personal level.

Think about it like this: The ‘rescue Han arc’ that makes up the first third of ROTJ services that story a number of ways. The most direct and noticeable is that it demonstrates the Luke Skywalker character’s growth and maturity between episodes.

This character is no longer the brash kid willing to run headlong into a situation to rescue someone, only to discover he’s now the one who needs rescuing. He does this in ANH. And he does it again in ESB. In ROTJ though, he’s now the one who has “taken care of everything”. He went into the situation with a well considered plan and then executes that plan. People like to poke fun at what exactly his plan was. But the intent is that he’s grown. He’s matured. He’s wiser now.

To that end, in the first moments we’re reintroduced to him, he uses two abilities sequentially that we’ve never seem him use before. He ‘Force chokes’ the Gamorreans - something we’ve only seen Vader do. And then he ‘mind tricks’ Bib - something we’ve only seen Obi-Wan do. The subtle communication to the audience here is that this is now the place Luke is at in his development. This is how far he’s grown. He’s in their league now. He’s a real Jedi.

For fans of a certain age, the ‘mind trick’ wasn’t just an ability that Force folk could do just because. It was visceral proof that their hero, whose journey they’d been following for so long, was now on the cusp of fulfilling his stated purpose. It was evidence of maturity. Of mastery. That’s an emotional connection. That resonates. That’s intimacy.

To see another character demonstrate that equivalent status of growth with very little effort would understandably present as ‘unearned’. It isn’t pure procedural priggery, like you tend to frame it. It isn’t that it violated some unwritten rules of acceptable conduct. It’s a diminishment of their emotional investment and relationship with the story. It isn’t unreasonable to me that individuals with that mindset would be unwilling to accept what they were being shown.

But did that situation truly NEED Rey to discover that ability at that moment? Was that the only plausible way that scenario could have possibly advanced? Of course not. It was a deliberate choice to have that character use that specific ability to no broader significance.

There’s nothing wrong with questioning an author’s choice and asserting that it might not have been the best one to make . . . so long as you can support it with a well-reasoned argument anyway.

I don’t disagree. But I also believe there’s a much deeper connotation at play, this type of criticism is reflective of, that you maybe aren’t being sensitive to.

 

That's just not true.

Kylo commanded "Now you will give it to her me." to give him the information on the droid. Rey felt this but resisted. She then commanded the trooper hoping he would not be as resistant as she was.

It's pretty elementary. The only element that is missing is descriptive dialogue of Rey having a dillema, expressing doubts and debating whether she is capable or of it's worth trying.

I think people are way over thinking about this. Seeing luke perform a mind trick showed him starting to appear more like Obi-Wan, the OG Star Wars wizard, and less like former farm boy turned hot shot pilot. The mind trick was the first Jedi power we were ever shown. And it's performed in such a blaze manner. It seems counterintuitive that this should be seen as an indication of level of mastery and difficulty involved. Its appearance, along with Luke force choking, are nods back to A New Hope and the abilities displayed by Kenobi and Vader to show that Luke now operate in the realm of these two guys. And not the gung ho pilot he had been previously. And that his character may adopt the traits of both those characters.

All the stuff about how difficult and advanced certain skills, or "feeble tricks" as someone once called them, is just made up by fans because they want to. The saga doesn’t invite or demand it. But imposing order, and therefore having some sense of control of the narrative, is just very attractive to many people who watch these things.

If the authors had the same concerns, then the first time we see somebody moving objects would not have been with Luke, someone who has never witnessed or is even aware of such a power (and which bears no similarity with any abilities he's displayed before) has no teacher, and is hanging upside down in poor condition.

In fact the authors purposefully made it such a hopeless situation, both in terms of the circumstances and of Luke's inexperience, in order to make his desperate epiphany more impactful.

This imaginary scale of status of these skills is unnecessary but it's understandable that fans want to have that kind of order. It's in the very nature of a good chunk of people attracted to material like Star Wars and has been popularised by the format of RPG games etc which rely on things like that to mark out and dispense incremental achievements to the player in order for them to fully understand their progress.


I am fully aware of it yet I don't feel any obligation to be sensitive to that kind of appreciation. And I am certain the writers don't either. Otherwise they should just write video games instead.

The Force Awakens

The movie is about Rey's epiphanies. The story needed Rey to have these epiphanies in order for her to start to face her destiny. Just like Luke in the cave. It needed her to discover that she had potential not dissimilar to her tormentor's. It's not just about her escaping or being rescued.

 

You know...I think it would have been more credible if she had used the Force to unfasten her bindings, maybe accidentally after trying in vain to free herself, rather than have her use something as complex as a Jedi Mind Trick.

 

I thought the analogy we were supposed to use for mind trick is that it's as complex and as tricky as unpicking a lock which needs study and practice. Now we're saying that Rey unpicking the locks on her bindings with the force would have been more acceptable and believable?

Remember that Rey fails in her attempt at the mind trick initially.

You're way overthinking it. You command someone to do, say or think something and the force compels them to do it. That's the mind trick.

 

I wasn't referring to her picking a lock with the Force - just unfastening the bindings. Like this.

And this:

There was also a scene in TFA that was edited out where Kylo loosened Rey's bonds then tightened them again with the Force...and a scene, onscreen, where she is shown trying hard to break them without success. She could have snapped them with the Force.

 

What? Now we really are splitting hairs. The "bindings" tying her to the rack clearly have a locking mechanism.

Really. There is nothing at all in the franchise that dictates what is more or less complex as you describe them.


The supposed high skill level, sophistication and mastery involved in the mind trick seems at odds with the fact that it is only useful against the weak minded. Does it not?

It's like studying hard to master a skill of picking locks, but only works on doors that are already partly unlocked and would have opened anyway just with a shove.

 

Who's splitting hairs here...me or you?
Getting back to the subject matter...I think the ST wasn't so much the 'next generation' inheriting but DLF getting rid of Lucas's original legacy family. This now allows them to move on with their own new characters...which I believe is what Taikia Waititi is planning to do whenever he directs his new film.

It's interesting to see how well new films focusing on characters other than the Skywalker/Solos will do. I know a lot of people like Ahsoka and Ezra but how will they take to new 'canon' characters, created entirely by Disney? Cassian Andor and Djin Jarin have been well received, but TV and cinema are different mediums.

 

Now let’s practice a little intellectual honesty here and look at that line in its actual context.

KYLO: You know I can take whatever I want. You're so lonely. So afraid to leave. At night, desperate to sleep. You imagine an ocean. I see it. I see the island. And Han Solo. You feel like he's the father you never had. He would have disappointed you.
REY: Get out of my head.
KYLO: I know you've seen the map. It's in there. And now you'll give it to me.

That line from the Kylo character is 100% NOT a “command”. It’s a declarative statement - a boastful proclamation of purpose. He’s saying “I’m going to reach into your mind right now, rip that map right out of you, and there’s nothing you can do about it.” And when she first resists, he doesn’t then restate his “command”. And he doesn’t issue a new “command”. He simply says “We’ll see”. The encounter between them is conversational. He isn’t ordering her to do anything. He’s taking glee in lording his power over her while showing off.

Again, the two scenes are causally connected: What happens here is what inspires her later. But they are not grammatically connected. The film language is different. The context is different. They aren’t presented as the same thing and so the audience isn’t invited to view them as the same thing. So they’re disjointed and a lot of people (myself included) didn’t make the connection we were supposed to.

I’m glad you were able to piece it together your first viewing. But that wasn’t everyone’s experience. It seemed inexplicable this was something the character was suddenly capable of and that’s where they left it.

This is a forum dedicated to exploring all perspectives and opinions on a common topic we’re all passionate about. There is no “over thinking” it in this space. That’s why we’re here. Everyone is welcome at this table of ideas.

That’s exactly my point. It’s a moment that subtly communicates to the audience that Luke is now in that company. He isn’t sitting at the kiddie table anymore, using paper plates and plastic cutlery. He’s all grown up now. He’s sitting with the adults. For the kids who grew up along with Luke in that six year expanse between episodes IV and VI, who identified with him, that was a pretty big deal. There’s a large amount of significance to that you might not be appreciating. Or, more accurately, just don't care to.

And my assertion is that it’s not really about that. It’s about the underline emotion of the matter. Most people aren’t comfortable with exploring that aspect of themselves, so they fall back on analytics and precedence to justify academically what they’re feeling internally. It’s what they know. It’s what they’re able to articulate. But that’s not really where the sensation of disapproval is truly coming from. It’s just an easy excuse. Something they can better wrap their left-brains around.

What you’re describing is also a substantive moment of illustrative growth for the Luke character between episodes. It too has an emotional attachment associated with it. It isn’t just dumb luck that Luke manages to pull the saber to him. It was deliberately shown to have been a premeditated and practiced effort. Luke clearly knew what he was doing in that moment. He knew what he wanted to accomplish and he knew what he needed to do to accomplish it. He wasn’t just figuring it out in the moment. It was new to us. It wasn’t new to him.

And that’s fundamentally counter to the messaging of the entire enterprise. ‘Compassion and understanding’. That’s the core ethic of this series. The willingness to look beyond your own perspective and ego, to attempt to see the world as others do. To empathize. To comprehend.

Just because something doesn’t matter to you, doesn’t mean it shouldn’t matter to anyone else.

Exactly right. But that wasn’t my point.

SNOKE: The scavenger resisted you?
KYLO: She is strong with the Force. Untrained, but stronger than she knows.
…
KYLO: She's just beginning to test her powers. The longer it takes to find her the more dangerous she becomes.

The utility of the scene is to demonstrate Rey’s progression. The situation we were presented with though did not NEED to be resolved in the manner it was. It was a conscious choice to have her perform that specific ability in that specific way in order to remind the audience that we were indeed watching a Star Wars movie. It didn’t matter whether it made total sense or not. It was a cute nod. It was a ‘hey, guys, remember this?’ moment. That’s not ALL it is. But that’s definitely a big part of it.

It’s a moment of fan service. It also happens to service the character’s development and the narrative’s plot. But it’s also most certainly a ‘look, ma, I made a Star War’ callout. I also don’t blame anyone for rejected this concept on that basis either.

The Daniel Craig trooper just pushes a button to let her go. Pushing a button doesn't seem all that complicated to me.

 

You know...that scene is one of my favourite in the entire ST. Kylo starts off the scene confident, smug, secure in the knowledge that he will easily be able to get what he wants from the mind of this strange little nobody he's 'heard so much about'.

And then...the tables are completely turned as she gets into his mind....and sees the vulnerable, insecure young man behind the arrogant 'mask'....not the helmet, but the mask of confidence and fearlessness he wears.

The way Driver's expression changes from utterly in control of himself to actual terror...gets me every time. He's spent six years working to hide his real self, and Rey sees through it in six seconds. Truly a 'mental duel'.

 

Ok it's not a command. More a prompt like. "These aren't the droids you're looking for", "He can go about his business." and "You will bring Captain Solo and the Wookie to me." or "You will unfasten these restraints and leave with the door open."

It's a prompt and not really a command. Nevertheless, the subject's free will is effectively at the person tricking them's command.

Sometimes people can't see the wood for the trees.

I can have opinions about the necessity those ideas and the process that produces those ideas.

Oh I appreciate it quite a bit. I just don't perceive the significance in terms of the specific mastery and skill levels required that are imposed by other fans. (I also appreciate that the OT were the first three movies of the saga and introduced the concepts of force powers and of learning them. The PT and the ST do not have this obligation. Rey's epiphanies serve a different function and so inevitably aren't restricted to the same form, storytelling wise. They do not violate any "rules" however.

It almost certainly was new to him or he wouldn't have been such a fool unto himself by making several hopeless attempts to physically reach his saber. Who was teaching Luke this power in between movies? Isn't it a coincidence that Luke's discovery (the director of the movie calls this scene Luke discovering his powers, for whatever that's worth) is followed immediately by another shocking revelation. Obi Wan Kenobi standing before Luke and telling him he needs to go to Dagobah to be trained. (Right before he passed out almost for good. "Luckily" Han came along at that exact moment.)

At best it's Luke remembering to "Reach out with your feelings" which had served him well enough at Yavin. And he had no other choice too. He was either destined to die there, or something else would happen. And so it was with Rey in TFA.

I don't apologise for not being moved by people's emotional reactions to not having their preconceived notions and head canon vindicated.

I don't agree. All long running series are self referential. Eventually they become little else but self referential. Isn't your demand that they honour this virtual scale of difficulty and growth just a different kind of Star Wars callout?

 

Narrative metaphor.
Not logistical relation.

The reason a certain power is used is the same reason a character wears a certain color.

Cheers,
Jayson

 

Some people speculated that Rey was Obi Wan's granddaughter...as he had a fondness for that particular trick.
Others believed she had in fact had some Jedi training, and her memories had been 'altered'. That would have been a rather good explanation, I think.

 

Cheers,
Jayson

 

It’s not a “prompt” either. It’s a statement of what he considers to be an absolute fact. It doesn’t matter what Rey thinks or feels about it, he’s going to take what he wants. He’s going to “see” the map in her head like he already saw the island. That’s the point he’s making. A point he doesn’t really need to make, but he wants to. He wants her to feel powerless and know she’s powerless. That’s the dynamic at play in the scene.

Yes, that’s the causality between them. But the context and presentation are distinctly different. That’s the dilemma that breeds misunderstanding.

And when they do, you can dismiss and denigrate them for their lack of sight, being exclusionary. Or you can try and help them along in seeing what they’re not seeing, being inclusionary. The choice is yours to make.

You certainly can. You can also decide ‘how’ you share those opinions and be open to the prospect of acknowledging the validity of others.

I don’t disagree with this at all. Rey’s journey is Rey’s journey. Her milestones are her milestones. But I understand someone having reservations about how they interpret the impact on their preexisting emotional understanding of the text.

Luke came to that place toward the end of his maturity. Rey came to it at the beginning of hers. That’s ostensibly incompatible. But they’re different characters with different paths toward that ‘coming of age’. That’s something that has to be accepted in order to engage with the story. And it’s hard for some to get there.

Luke, at first, panics - reacts out of desperate fear to no avail. Then he focusses, controls his fear, and reaches out with concentrated intent (this idea is directly mirrored at the end of the film and is a constant theme throughout). He tries something. Has the wherewithal to recognize why it isn’t working, and then adjusts his tactic through to success. That demonstrates a maturity learned through experience. Luke’s grown since we last saw him. But still has a lot to learn.

Like ROTJ, this is our reintroduction to Luke in ESB. There has been a noticeable expanse of time between episodes. Luke, in that time, has grown and matured. His familiarity with the Force has also grown and matured in that time. His use of that new ability (from our perspective) is evocative of that growth and expressive of the story’s larger theme of controlling fear through mindful intent.

In short: he was taught the basic concept in ANH and has been independently continuing his education the best he was able without instruction. “But I've learned so much.” It isn’t about “training”. It’s about growth.

You’re suggesting he just made a massive breakthrough and that’s why ghost Obi-Wan shows up? But only when Luke is practically dead? Not before that for some reason? Interesting take.

You don’t have to be “moved”. But it wouldn’t hurt to be aware. To be considerate.

To be clear: this is not my opinion or my perspective. I don’t have the tiniest problem with Rey being able to do whatever the story needs so long as it stays true to the heart of the character and what she represents in the narrative. Hell, I wish the climax of the sequel trilogy had vaulted her head-and-shoulders above what had come before. I mean, if she’s “all the Jedi”, then have her do something no other Jedi could possibly have done. Really show off that generational growth.

What I’m trying to do here is interpret where I think the criticism and reticence is coming from. That it might not be as simple and shallow as you’re trying to make it out to be. That it shouldn’t be tossed out as immature or immaterial. I don’t believe in ‘gatekeeping’ and making people feel unwelcome. Everyone matters. Even the ones I don’t agree with. Making sure they get a voice is the same as ensuring I also get a voice.

 

Maybe you could let me know where you got that from. I'd be interested to know.

This is what Irvin Kershner had to say about that sequence on the commentary track for ESB.

"And here was the first instance of the power that Mark had. The power of a Jedi, which gradually develops through the film. He had to get out of a difficult situation, and here was his lightsaber. And he willfully makes it jump into his hands. And, of course, lops the arm off of the ice creature. Which kind of worried me because I think kids would be very upset by this. But like all fairy tales, and of course, this is a fairy tale, there should be frightening things."

Nothing about his discovering of anything in that moment.

 

It's ironic @eeprom. Your voice can be made to sound exactly like mine.



The meta aspect is still saying whatever you want, but I digress.

 

Who cares?
You've perceived it a certain way regardless what the director did or didn't have in their head. So that's how you perceived it.

Cheers,
Jayson