What's the point of this trilogy?

Off the top of my head...

• She exhibited an uncanny ability to out-manuever First Order starfighters in the Falcon, a craft she'd never flown before.
• She fought -- and beat -- Kylo Ren with zero lightsaber training. (Okay, granted, JJ went to great lengths to show the audience that Kylo was injured.) But still, come on!!!!
• She did the old, tried-and-true Jedi mind trick.
• And let's not forget she out-Forced Kylo when she attracted Luke's lightsaber to her (At the time, I thought that since it belonged to Luke, it was a Skywalker version of The Sword in the Stone but -- alas -- it wasn't.)

These are just things I remember from TFA (which, by the way, was a SW film that I LIKED!!!)

At the time, I was going to wait and see if her powers were explained in the next two installments of the trilogy. I erroneously assumed that it would given that one of the biggest issues with George Lucas (according to Dave Filoni) is that A Force-sensitve person Must Be Trained to Exhibit Jedi-like Powers.

 

1. She picked that location on purpose because that’s where she scavenges. She knew the layout. That was the point. 2. She identifies herself as a pilot and states that she’d flown other ships. 3. TPM establishes with Anakin that someone can unconsciously tap into the Force to improve their reflexes. It all adds up to me.

The physical injury is just an outward expression of his inner injury though. Killing his father was supposed to remove his self-doubt and evolve him. But it didn’t. It fractured him even deeper. As Rey finds her harmony in the Force, Kylo is in total discord. Rey defeats Kylo, but it’s Kylo’s fault as much as it’s Rey’s credit. He lost because he IS lost. It all adds up to me.

This is the one I can genuinely get behind. The premise was that Rey was doing to FN-007 what Kylo had just done to her. She learned it by experiencing it. But the ability presented in those two scenes are distinctly different. One is pulling a thought out of someone’s head. And one is putting a though in to someone’s head. They’re opposite concepts. But for the scene to work, you have to pretend it’s the same. It’s confusing and a lot of people (myself included) didn’t get it until JJ explained it. That’s why I called it a “crappy job”.

Earlier in the film we’re told that the saber was calling to her. That it had chosen her, basically. This is the moment where she chooses it too. Of course it comes to her instead of him. It’s not about who has more ‘forcieness’. It’s about connection. It all adds up to me.

Is this about ‘power’ or ‘skill’ though? We do end up getting an explanation for where that power came from. But it seems like this misgiving is more about how much she seems to know. No?

Whatever George actually said, or how it was interpreted, I can’t rightly say. But when Luke pulls that saber from the snow at the beginning of ESB, I don’t recall anyone teaching him that. It was just a thing he could do now, because . . . Force.

With little exception, I feel TFA did a great job sourcing Rey’s abilities. She’s someone remarkably gifted in the Force and resourceful enough to make smart use of it. It all adds up to me. I don’t see the contradictions that others seem to.

 

At the time the movie came out, I thought this was one of The Coolest additions to the Star Wars mythology---she called out to Luke's lightsaber and---cue John Williams' music---IT CAME TO HER!!! As I said earlier, I took it as a Star Wars version of The Sword in the Stone.

Excuse me---Connection? What connection? Instead of going to another Skywalker, the saber bypassed Kylo to go to....Lord Palpatine's granddaugher?!?!? THAT's your connection?

Glad it all worked for you. It didn't for me. But, hey, truth be told, I am over it all now. It's just something to discuss about Star Wars here. The STs are in the past and I'm looking forward to the future.

 

Rey is pulling the saber to herself in order to protect someone. Kylo is pulling it to himself for . . . entitlement, I guess? In that moment, the Rey character has a deeper connection to it than Kylo does. Her intention is to use this ‘weapon of a Jedi’ as a Jedi would and defend. It isn’t about the chain of custody.

Right, that’s what we’re doing. We’re discussing a topic. I’m not trying to convince you to change your mind. I just want to understand the perspective and explain why I have a different one.

 

I chose to take a break because I'm a depressant; I was going through a bad patch due to a personal family loss and didn't want to depress anyone here who might be vulnerable...please, don't tell me what to do. But enough about me. Back to SW.

Secondly...let's look at Luke and Rey and their achievements, eh?

First of all...Rey, TFA. I actually didn't see her as 'overpowered' at first - as I said in my previous post, I liked her up until TROS. Her flying the Falcon - yes, that was fine, she did almost crash it on taking off, and everything she did regarding 'bypassing the compressor' and other mechanical skills were completely credible - in fact, Rey's knowledge of mechanics is her best and most believable character trait considering her fifteen years of experience. I was cool with most of what she did in regard to mechanical skills.
Okay, her beating Kylo...that was a stretch, but three things going for her there - he was BADLY injured, he didn't want to kill her, and they could explain it by saying she 'borrowed' his fighting skills.
But...regarding the last, they didn't explain it, apart from a tweet by Pablo Hidalgo. Not good enough, I'm sorry. As I said before there should have been a scene in TLJ where it's at least mentioned. The fight in the throne room was easier explained; Rey had experience in using close combat weapons, none of her opponents were Force sensitive and she had Kylo's help. One thing Johnson did which I liked was having Snoke practically 'wipe the floor' with Rey regarding Force power. That was believable, as it showed how Kylo had 'gone easy' on her in TFA, and how very different it was for her when confronted with a powerful and evil FS.

TLJ...as above, and Johnson showed Rey had a naturally strong affinity in the Force, which he had also seen in his nephew...a forerunning of the dyad between them.

But...there is a difference between raw power and skills honed by experience. In ANH, Luke was not a 'master' in the Force. He was an experienced pilot, he had practised in Beggar's Canyon on Tattooine growing up, and this is why he was able to fight so well in the attack on the 'Death Star'. And he didn't do something 'miraculous' at the end...they already showed that another seasoned rebel pilot very nearly managed to hit the target, what Luke did was simply tap into his natural FS to 'nudge' the torpedos into the target, using instinct rather than thought....as Obi Wan had taught him on the Millennium Falcon.

What Rey did was use a Jedi mind trick on Kylo...and that was the first scene that hinted at her being 'overpowered'. This was a skill that had to be taught. Raw power is one thing, but subtle talents like that are very different. Luke didn't use it until ROTJ, when he was by then a seasoned Jedi Master. Even Rey lifting the rocks at the end of TLJ, could have been forgiven; she had had at least some guidance from Luke, and she was naturally strong in the Force. But, something as clever and subtle as a Jedi Mind Trick...no, sorry. That is a skill that is taught.

TROS could have explained all of this. They could have come up with something like Rey had been taught some skills as a child, and had had a 'block' put in her mind that had been inadvertently lifted by Kylo on StarKiller. But, they didn't. Instead they continued her 'deification' so that she suddenly has these 'healing abilities', and for some reason 'all the Jedi chose her' as their champion...including Anakin who never even bothered to communicate with his own grandson. Saying she was Sheev's granddaughter was a cop out - even Palps had had to be taught to use his skills, Rey was 'gifted' with everything. Luke went through hell to become what he was. Heck, even Kylo did. All Rey faced was a few moments of doubt after she stabbed Kylo.
Sadly, instead of using TROS to truly fill the gaps and answer the questions, the audience was simply told: 'this is your heroine. Love her.' End of. Where Luke Skywalker won our hearts, Rey lost all her likeability and became simply an icon, not a human being. It's Luke's flaws that made me love him, and identify with him. All they did in deifying Rey was make me dislike her. Fine - that's me. But a lot of people feel the same way. Rey had so much potential and they threw it away. And that is what saddens me.

 

That’s certainly the thing that most people bumped up against. I did too. The problem is with how poor the scene is constructed. Whatever Pablo or anyone else might have said, this is what JJ said in the movie commentary:

”The idea is that Rey is desperately trying to use this Force power that she just experienced with Kylo Ren. And on the dim mind of a typical stormtrooper, she just feels that she could possibly, having just been in such a powerful mind, could overpower a weak one.”

But those two situations aren’t actually structured to be all that similar. And the specificity of how it’s done is designed to clue the audience into what’s happening - to cutely remind us of Obi-Wan in ANH. But Rey didn’t see that movie. So it’s a weird and confusing choice.

The simplest solution for that moment to work would have been to establish that, since Luke is a “myth” after all (a legend, a folk hero), this was one of the things he was said to be able to do with the Force. “It's a power that Jedi have that lets them control people and make things float.” Set up that it’s something she’s heard Force folk could do and so she knew to try that. Problem solved.

I don’t recall anyone teaching this skill to Luke. He saw Obi-Wan do it once and then apparently figured it out all on his own.

I take issue with “seasoned Jedi Master”. It was a pivotal character point that he wouldn’t even be considered a real Jedi until he confronted Vader. He was still a learner. But I take your point: he’d obviously been practicing.

They made a point of showing us she’d been studying Luke’s Jedi journal. I guess they could have been more explicit, but the implication is that she learned it from there. So, it was Luke who sussed this out. Not her.

She was the last Jedi. What was the alternative?

It wasn’t presented like Anakin could just pop in to say “hi” whenever and was just <ugh> ‘ghosting’ him. Rey couldn’t hear those dead dorks until she was practically dead herself.

She discovered that she was the progeny of who is essentially ‘the devil’ in this universe. The Rey character learns that she’s basically the antichrist. That no matter how heroic she might want to be, she’ll forever be tainted and wrong. That’s not nothing. Maybe the movie screwed the pooch and landing that reveal, but that’s one hell of a cross to bear. At least on paper, yeah?

 

Life's thrown far more at me than a film, DP. And with respect...we are allowed our opinions.

 

It's about a new generation taking over. It's really not very different from Luke stepping in and taking on a leadership role in the Rebellion after being mentored by Obi Wan (and Yoda). It's about Rey, Poe, and Finn stepping in and stepping up. Hell, even the villain in this series does that and that's not something that happened in the original series. Vader was well-established. I've never thought of Star Wars as a coming-of-age tale, but there's definitely an element of that.

 

Only in Luke's case it was the next generation of Skywalkers, with the ST it's ....the next generation of Palpatines.

I wonder if we get future stories featuring Rey, will she be calling herself 'Skywalker'? Because they made a very firm point that TROS was the 'final chapter' of the Skywalker saga.

 

I doubt we'll ever see Rey again. She became too polarizing. Not that it was fair, but it is what it is. Go to any social media comments section about ANYTHING Star Wars. It's loaded with dudes trashing her, Kennedy, etc; despite the trilogy have a better overall reception than the prequels.

 

It's a shame, as the character had a lot of potential...and I like Daisy. Sad thing is, they made her a Mary Sue. And sadly...supplementary material is continuing that. I'm sorry.

 

There is no basis for that assumption*. They went to great lengths illustrate Kyio's mind probe, even in the first instance when he's getting info from Poe. It's like arm wrestling or tug of war. If someone engaged you, unannounced and unprepared, in an arm wrestle, or tug, you wouldn't really need any particular training or specific skills. In fact you would likely just instinctively wrestle back or tug in the opposite direction with equal or opposite force in order to maintain your position or that which is in your possession. That dynamic is precisely what is being depicted in the scene with Rey and Kylo later on. The mise en scene for their mental tussle is not accidental. People way overthink the mind probe/mind trick ability.

*I will address the stock response to that statement here - People often say "Luke wasn't able to do a mind trick until Return Of The Jedi". Well, the storyline didn't require him to mind trick or use Jedi mind powers until ROTJ. Which is not the same thing.

Young Anakin was never taught yet he was immediately clairvoyant of all the images in Mace Windu's little test when he first arrived on Coruscant. And that was just to test if he was a suitable candidate for Jedi training. They weren't wowed or remark that the powers he displayed were all that extraordinary.

Slight tangent. How do you train and practice at using mind tricks? Who do you use them on in order to test your ability before you go out in the field? Kind of seems unethical to use them on weaker minded friends or colleagues.

 

1. Luke is a Mary Sue. He blows up the Death Star his first time piloting a ship and goes toe-to-toe with Vader his first lightsaber fight.

2. I don't dislike Rey as a character at all. Not even a little. I like her. I didn't have a problem with her in The Force Awakens AT. ALL. Her Mary Sueness didn't even bother me until I walked out of the theater after The Last Jedi. She hadn't lost at that point. THAT'S when it started to bug me. I like that she was revealed to be a major Force user's granddaughter AND lost to Ren in TROS.

 

Now that's interesting.

Luke to Han in Mos Eisley:
'I'm a pretty good pilot myself.' Luke grew up on a farm blasting womp rats in Beggars Canyon. He had plenty of experience flying small space craft.

Luke didn't stand out as 'exceptional' among the rebels attempting to blow up the Death Star...one of them very nearly managed to hit the target. It was strongly implied that the computer programming was 'off', which was why Luke switched it off and allowed his natural 'gift' with the Force to guide him - just like he did when practising lightsabre moves on the Millennium Falcon. This was far less 'dramatic' than a Jedi mind trick mastered in five minutes.

Between ANH and ESB, three years had passed where Luke had had time to gain experience and skills as a pilot and warrior. He may not have had formal Jedi training but I'm sure he had plenty of opportunities to continue to practice sabre swings with 'dummy' opponents, so he knew some combat skills. Just as Rey had experience with a quarterstaff on Jakku. However, when Luke went 'toe to toe' with Vader he lost - badly. In fact, he almost died. When Rey went toe to toe with Kylo, it was the other way around.

By the time we reached ROTJ Luke was a skilled Jedi master - but even he couldn't beat Palpatine. No one could. Anakin couldn't. Yoda couldn't. This was hammered home in the PT as well as the OT trilogy. Anakin and Luke destroyed Palpatine between them.

By the time we reached TROS, Rey was able to beat Palpatine ...by simply crossing two lightsabres. On her own.

It would have been far more credible if she and Kylo had both destroyed Palpatine. But, no. I'm not saying this now as a Kylo fan, but from a logical point of view - his character, a major character throughout the entire ST, described by Snoke as a 'master of the Knights of Ren', a role he had earned, the descendant of Anakin 'Chosen One' Skywalker - was reduced to being tossed down a hole for the final act so Rey could have all the glory. Even her 'death' only lasted five minutes - they finally found something for Han and Leia's son to do, dying to revive her.

And let's not forget the magical Force healing - yes, it did feature in the EU, but Disney chose to erase that - and Force healing was never 'canon' in the movie universe. No, in the ST Force healing was something added at the last minute in the last film to make Rey even more amazing. And of course, so she didn't have blood on her hands when she stabbed her unarmed opponent with his own weapon.

I'm sorry...you're entitled to your opinion, but Luke was never the Mary Sue Rey was, and still is (check out supplementary material).

 

This made me laugh. +1

lol - was only a small setback.

 

A young guy who never flew a ship - or used the Force - uses a mystical ability to blow up the Death Star? You don't say....

Luke never attempted to fight Palpatine. He surrendered. And all Vader did was pick him up and throw him down a pit. Palpatine was never shown to be unbeatable (someone who couldn't be defeated by a single person) until the prequels.

 

OBI-WAN: I understand you've become quite a good pilot yourself.
LUKE: I'm not such a bad pilot myself.
LUKE: I used to bull's-eye womp rats in my T-16 back home.
BIGGS: Luke is the best bush pilot in the outer-rim territories.

LUKE: You know, I did feel something. I could almost see the remote.
OBI-WAN: That's good. You've taken your first step into a larger world.

I get the instinct to compare Luke and Rey. But there’s no need to. They’re different people that come from different backgrounds and want different things.

The Rey character is undeniably the Luke analogue for the sequel trilogy. But they’re not the same character. In fact Rey seems to have been purpose built to be the anti-Luke.

Where Luke was raised in a loving (yet sheltered) home, resulting in a young person possessing massively unearned confidence and not many practical life skills to back it up - Rey had to raise herself in an incredibly hostile and unforgiving environment that demanded she learn a legion of skills just to survive. But, being the product of abandonment, she suffers from a severe lack of self-worth and confidence.

They’re essentially opposites. Luke has tremendous ambition, but no real capability. While Rey has tremendous capability, but no real ambition.

Luke’s goal is to learn skills that will enable him to fulfill a known purpose and is defined by a ‘want’ statement. “I want to learn the ways of the Force and become a Jedi like my father.”

Rey’s goal is merely to find a purpose for her skills and is defined by a ‘need’ statement. “Something inside me has always been there. But now it's awake. And I'm afraid. I don't know what it is or what to do with it. And I need help.”

Luke wants to be the hero of the story, but doesn’t understand what that actually means. He has to gain experience and discipline and humility. That’s HIS journey. Rey already has those things. What she needs is to find her significance in the story. But she's afraid of actually being significant to the story. She has to learn to want to be the hero. That’s HER journey.

Rey didn’t grow up on a farm with loving parents, where the worst thing that could happen in a given day was she might not be able to hang out with her friends because she didn’t get all her chores done. She grew up in a competitive battlefield of rivals who she had to be smarter and more resourceful than just so she could manage to eat. She had to quickly adapt in order to survive.

So, yes, when the Force became another tool available to her, she instantly worked out how to take advantage of it. Because that’s who she is. That’s who she had to be to live. All that was really missing was the ability to see her own value and then believe in it.

 

Just something I saw recently

 

Yup...all for nothing post TROS.