What's the point of this trilogy?

No just until the end of the Skywalker saga.

So this is about Ben/Kylo being rewarded? And not about him facing the consequences and having people tell him what they think of his deeds?

Is it a worse message or a better message than Rey dying, after having rejected her supposed destiny to inherit her grandfather's evil legacy and empire?

Ben stood with Rey until he was cast down by Palpatine. He would surely have died alongside her if they had remained together throughout. But he was given a chance to give his life for hers after she defeated Sidious with all the Jedi behind her. So I don't agree that it was the case he had to die because he did good at the end. Or in spite of it. He was given the chance to live by Rey after Leia intervened in their duel. It would not have been totally outrageous if Kylo/Ben just died then and there due to Rey not having the knowledge or the power to save him. There might have been a chance for remorse before dying but that's it. That's an alternate that I can visualise which makes more sense than just having Ben survive the ending to show that being a cowardly murderer in the pursuit of power doesn't need to cost your life, if you choose turn back from that.

I'm going to say, categorically, that the the chance of reward at the end if you turn back because you failed to achieve ultimate power by causing or allowing the deaths of billions of innocent people is not a good message for kids.

 

Doing good IS the reward. It isn’t about a system of karmic payback - you do a certain amount of good deeds and you earn spirit points you can cache in later.

The character went from immensely selfish, only interested in his own needs and wants, to being completely willing to give his own life for another - quintessential selflessness. Greed versus charity. Selfish versus selfless. Dark versus light. The dark side takes while the light side gives. That's the duality. That's the ethic.

 

"It is a far, far better thing I do now than I have ever done. It is a far, far better rest I go to than I have ever known"

The sequel trilogy also shares with Two Cities an affinity with the idea that the sins of the father (Palpatine and Vader) are visited on his children.

 

Are you a Rey fan? Genuinely curious.

 

"Are you now, or have you ever been...."

I think we've already established that favouritism for anyone is not something I indulge in.

 

It still amazes me how they brought him back...'somehow Palpatine has returned'...ouch. Poor Oscar, having to say that. I salute TROS's cast for keeping a straight face with some of the awful dialogue...and I thought the PT's script was awful!

 

You should read this article:

https://starwarsthoughts.com/2021/1...-poe-dameron-the-rise-of-skywalker-star-wars/

 

What are YOUR thoughts though? Do you simply agree entirely with the writer on every point made? What's your opinion on the matter? How do you interpret that line and its relevance to the larger trilogy?

 

This is great. I wholly agree.

- Question that I'm asking is what esteemed school did Beaumont attend that taught Mysteries of the Sith? Second question I'm asking is who in the kriff Beaumont Kin is.... On second thought, only the first one matters.

Best summation that I have seen to date. I love SWTdotcom.

This. It doesn't need to be provided there, on the spot....

And I quite liked SWTdotcom's explanation.

 

Interesting comments...I remember when I sat in the cinema watching DROSS - whoops sorry, TROS - that five minutes into it, it felt like I'd walked in half way through the film.

 

There have been some pretty dumb critiques throughout the trilogy. Like the imaginary map left by Luke so people could find him "plot hole". Or the insistence that Johnson told the audience to kill the past. The use of the "Somehow ..." meme is another symptom of that. The Jedi never agonised over or sought answers for the Sith's miraculous return from extinction at the beginning of the prequel trilogy. So why does Poe Dameron (he's just a pilot!) have the obligation to adequately explain, outline or justify the how and when of Palpatine's return? All the line does is highlight that this is the last thing the resistance needs and that Palpatine's return is a portent of even darker episodes to come. Yet some fans treat it as if Poe's dialogue should make actual sense of the most evil person/thing in the universe not being totally dead.

The most nauseating conceit expressed by some is the supposed embarrassment that Oscar is feeling at being asked to deliver it. If ever an indication were needed of some of the fans sense of their own self importance being projected on the actual franchise, then there it is.

 

If I may, I don’t believe that’s the criticism. The line itself simply became a lightning rod to express the larger critique of the film being totally incurious about this aspect of the narrative. “Somehow” makes total sense for the Poe character. But it’s also pretty much the movie’s perspective too. It doesn’t matter HOW it happened. It DID happen and now we have to deal with it. And that’s fair, but also not very fulfilling when you’re invested in the greater story.

The issue, I think, is that this approach is largely unsatisfying thematically. TROS is bookended with two resurrections. Palpatine’s at the start and Rey’s at the end. Rey is brought back to life through an act of loving selflessness - the epitome of Jedi ideology. Ben gave his life so Rey could live. ‘Why’ he does this and ‘how’ he does this are equally important. They’re both in balance (as it were).

With Palpatine though there’s no counterpoint to this. He came back to life, not as an expression of some Sith ideology, but because of some ill-defined techno-mystical handwaving. He returned because . . . darkside. But what was the cost? Who did he have to hurt in order to enable this ‘unnatural’ ability? What did he take from someone else? Who’s the victim? How does this operate as the opposite of what a Jedi would do? Seemingly nothing. It’s something he apparently managed with his weirdo cult buddies and the power of “dark science”. It’s flaccid and shallow.

I feel that’s the crux of the matter. If you aren’t going to deal with the ‘how’ of the substance, then you aren’t truly dealing with the philosophy of the substance. And without its philosophy, Star Wars is just a bunch of stuff happening in space.

 

Nothing narrow minded about this statement. +1

"DROSS?! - I'm sorry Master Madcatwoman, that's not a system an acronym I'm familiar with...."

"If an acronym is not in my archives, then for its definition - I must insist!"​

 

That is absolutely 100% right. It doesn't matter, like how the force works.

I don't agree that it makes it unfilfulling or thematically unsatisfying. How the force or cloning works has never been a theme of Star Wars. The force, and cloning, are just excuses to make things happen. A combination of magic and science.

I think the actual problem is that sometimes Star Wars fans don't like being reminded that things don't matter.

Explaining it would have just been another midichlorians episode.

 

As this Skywalker fan feels, what really mattered was that Anakin died for nothing. He destroyed Palpatine, saved his son...then Palps returns and causes the deaths of every single Skywalker. It was all for nothing.

And yes, I respect the views of those who think that Ben Solo, the son of Leia and grandson of Anakin, dying saving Rey was 'hopeful', unfortunately ...not for me. For me, he died saving someone who didn't love him, completely forgot him and happens to be his enemy's descendant. The fact that not only Rae Carson's tie in novel insisted in 'glorifying' Rey, and that further books are actually deifying her doesn't make one jot of difference....it just makes her character not just a Mary Sue but so 'perfect' she's ridiculous.

 

Leia and Luke would have given their lives to save the rebellion no matter wo they were rebelling against; Palpatine. Hydra. Cobra Kai. The Ant Hill Mob.

 

If you ask me, 30 years of relative peace in the Galaxy without Palpatine in the mix, is a pretty big victory for the good guys at the end of RotJ. Besides, The Empire unraveled with the defeat of its Emperor, ending the wars and subjegations that, really, started with the Clone Wars. Huzzah for Anakin saving the day in RotJ!

Also, can we please not have the same arguments going round and round in a circle? If one has made ones point, let's say 100 times, perhaps 101 is not necessary? Yes? Also also, it would be could if, one of these days, we could talk about the stuff we love in Star Wars and be enthusiastic that we even have a franchise as brilliant as this one, yeh? Please?

 

Well, more accurately, it doesn’t matter to YOU. But just because something doesn’t matter to you, doesn’t mean it doesn’t matter at all. For me, the ‘how’ of any character or group’s actions are crucial to understanding the point a story is trying to convey. It isn’t just about ‘what’ they want and ‘why’ they want it. It’s also significantly about ‘how’ they go about getting it.

For example, the very first Star Wars movie. The evil Empire wants to control the galaxy. WHY they want this is pretty vague. Greed, most likely - power for power’s sake. But HOW they intend to do it is the whole point of the film. “Fear will keep the local systems in line - fear of this battle station.” The Empire intends to basically hold a gun to the heads of everyone in the galaxy and say ‘obey us or else’. The detailed mechanics of the Empire aren’t important, but what it represents is: ruling through terror. That’s ‘how’ the Empire works.

And you don’t have to agree. You’re allowed to engage with a story at whatever level feels appropriate for you. But your level of appreciation doesn’t then dictate how others should engage. For me, not exploring that layer is like leaving an important ingredient out of my favorite dish. It’s still OK, but lacking.

Of course it has. It always has. “It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us, it binds the galaxy together.” That’s a ‘how’ statement. The Force is a part of nature, but is also intrinsically attached to everyone. Thus, everyone, whether they know it or not, is also connected to nature and one another. It’s a critical aspect of this fictional world, but also a metaphor representing George’s personal philosophy and value system: We’re all connected. The detailed mechanics of the Force aren’t important, but what it represents is: interconnectivity. That’s ‘how’ the Force works.

As far as cloning, when that was first introduced, the ‘how’ of that was also incredibly dire. “They are totally obedient, taking any order without question. We modified their genetic structure...to make them less independent than the original host.” They’re human beings that have been stripped of their humanity, turned into flesh and blood machines - disposable tools grown to fight and die. George’s personal opinion on the dehumanization of war isn’t exactly very subtle here. The detailed mechanics of cloning aren’t important, but what it represents is: automatization. That’s ‘how’ cloning works.

No, Martoto, they’re not. You’re absolutely allowed to see them that way. That’s totally your prerogative. But they’re certainly not. They’re metaphoric representations of the underlining themes and values this story is trying to promote.

Which was also another metaphor representing the underline theme of ‘symbiosis’ and interconnectivity. The problem with midi-chlorians isn’t that they define a ‘how’. It’s that they aren’t integrated into the story in a way that’s relevant. The movie hits the pause button to exposit at us without folding the idea into an element that gives us a reason to care.

A scene in TROS that handles this concept beautifully is when Rey heals the vexis (the giant snake monster thing). It’s probably my favorite scene in the movie. It’s structured like a classic fable. Like ‘The Lion and the Mouse’. Our hero, Rey, is confronted with an aggressive beast threatening her and her friends. The obvious course would be to answer that aggression with more aggression. But, like a Jedi, Rey looks beneath the surface of the situation and recognizes that this creature isn’t an evil monster, but a wounded animal. Its hostility is rooted in a place of hidden pain.

Instead of solving the dilemma with violence (like Poe urges), she chooses compassion and understanding. She heals instead of harms. But ‘how’ does she manage this? “I just transferred a bit of life. Force energy from me to him.” Rey gave of herself for the benefit of another . . . literally. She unselfishly saved something at a personal cost. The movie didn’t have to do that. It could have just had her say it was ‘an ancient Jedi secret’ or not even bring it up at all. But instead it made a point of connecting that ‘how’ to the core theme of the story and then carries it through to the end.

That line is an explanation, but not a pointless plot laden one. It speaks to the heart of the episode, the trilogy, and the whole saga while also supporting that immediate sequence. THAT’S what a ‘how’ can bring. THAT’S what Palpatine’s return is missing for me. A connective thread that joins the concept to the broader story. It didn’t need to be expansive and detailed, just relevant to the themes of the story.

It didn't NEED to do that. But it absolutely COULD have. And because of that it's less satisfying to me than it might have been. And deep down, I think that's where this criticism stems from. Not pedantry, but a desire to make an emotional connection.

 

Perhaps we should have a separate thread for those who want to moan!

Seriously though....you do have a point. Maybe I should bow out, now that the last film has essentially destroyed my affection for the franchise. Maybe all I'm doing is making people depressed about something they love. I don't know...at the end of the day perhaps SW forums should be for those who still love SW, rather than simply a place to vent for those like me....food for thought.

 

I once thought as you do. Then I decided that saving Luke from Palpatine came with the cost of plunging the galaxy into further darkness.... Vader's betrayal gave Luke a clean slate to study the force and do it the right way.... what his son did with that opportunity and how his life played out.... THOSE THINGS.... were all for nothing. No Jedi. No offspring.

tl;dr - Anakin saved his son, from certain torture.... but not from himself. Luke's failure's have nothing to do with the OT.

Perhaps ghost Anakin failed to appear because he was embarrassed for passing on his mental & emotional weaknesses to his son.
I like to think that, and, selfish ass Anakin was too consumed with the search for ghost Padme to bother showing up, so he ghost-phoned it in.


Fits the character and works well enough within Clone Sheev's Revenge Trilogy for me.

Go watch the Holiday Special, fall in love with the SAGA all over again.