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Why Disney understands the force...and Lucas didn't

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by zazeron, Jan 16, 2018.

  1. zazeron

    zazeron Rebelscum

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    Summary

    How Lucas turned the force into Harry potter and why Disney had to pull the plug on the skywalkers.
     
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  2. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    Nope. The midichlorian aspect always existed. Hence why Luke Skywalker was always seen as having the potential to be very powerful in the Force just because his father was. It was simply spelling it out and driving home the point that made the concept too much for some. But then they missed the fact that this coldness on behalf of the Jedi was part of the narrative that Lucas was telling.
     
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  3. LadyMusashi

    LadyMusashi Archwizard Woo-Woo-in-Chief
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    It's like saying that Einstein didn't understand relativity theory.
     
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  4. zazeron

    zazeron Rebelscum

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    Just because you made it doesn't mean you understand it
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 16, 2018, Original Post Date: Jan 16, 2018 ---

    Don't care if it was from the beginning...midichlorians are dreadful
     
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  5. SKB

    SKB Force Sensitive

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    Riiiiiiiiiiiight, so you're saying the guy who invented Star Wars and the force doesn't know how the stuff he invented works.....??!
     
    #5 SKB, Jan 16, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
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  6. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    However, you cannot deny that Lucas' perception and narrative framing of the force is different in the prequels when compared to the originals. The Force as presented in Disney's new movies is more akin to that originals. The prequel version constitutes New Age religious atomism (the scientifically verifiable force: midichlorians), the Force in the originals is the Heremetic and Gnostic version of the Force. That's also the Disney version.

    To claim that Lucas' perception and use of the Force as a narrative tool has always been the same is simply not true. Einstein's early thoughts on relativity were different from his later ones. Furthermore, relativity theory doesn't function as a narrative instrument: the Force does. This might even explain Lucas' invention of Midichlorians. His narrative demanded the discovery of very Force sensitive boy. What better way to show that extreme force sensitivity than by showing it in a positivist context: you can measure it which for an audience equels absolute verifiable truth.

    I definitely prefer the heremetic and gnostic version of the Force to the positivist new age one. The Force is something which is revealed when you open your eyes and mind to it, it is a hidden truth and alternate perception of what in narrative is alleged to be the 'true reality'. It is not something you can 'measure', it's ontological.
     
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  7. LadyMusashi

    LadyMusashi Archwizard Woo-Woo-in-Chief
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    The different interpretations of the Force Lucas had over the Saga do not predicate his misunderstanding of the Force - as you said it, he shaped it the way he needed it to fit his narrative. The fact that we like one version over the other, also doesn't mean the other version was somehow 'wrong'. It's just different. And all the versions are his.

    Don't get me wrong, I liked that Lucasfilm returned more mystical elements to the Force, but that doesn't make them somehow creative geniuses. They just took one tune out of Lucas's repertoire. I just think that claiming that he didn't understand his own creation is silly.
     
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  8. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    Agreed.
     
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  9. Madmartigan

    Madmartigan Rebel Official

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    For Han "that's not how the Force works"
     
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  10. Messi

    Messi G.O.A.T.

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    Agreed. Thats why the midiclhorinans will never be mentioned again ( I hope so).
     
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  11. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    But the whole idea of the midichlorians (despite actually existing in some sense during the OT and now ST with the continuation of the Skywalker bloodline - genetics) was to show that the Jedi had become too detached from the living force. It was a large part of the narrative that people at first didn't understand but then as Lucas showed the demise of the Jedi and mistakes they made - it all made sense.

    Now of course, the non-scientific presentation of the Force in the OT is favourable and makes for a "better film". But that wasn't something Lucas put much stock in for the PT, he had a story he wanted to tell and by the maker, he was going to tell it, warts and all!

    And now Disney have taken over and it just so happens that in terms of telling more enjoyable stories with a more spiritual portrayal of the Force, it coincides with the narrative going in that direction. "The Jedi" have learned their lessons about the living force and being too "cold". So the talk of midichlorians in unnecessary now in-universe as well. Though again, it's signature is still there due to the story of the Skywalker bloodline.
     
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  12. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    That makes sense. I hadn't considered that what you suggest would have been Lucas' intention. I thought it was just a narrative tool to show for an audience how "force sensitive" Anakin really is. It is the end of the 90s, the highpoint of modernity's positivism: no better way to show an audience 'proof' by presenting Anakin's force sensitivity as scientifically verifiable. Though I very much prefer your interpretation: the more we move from 1 to 9, the more heremetic and gnostic the force becomes. Just like all our Jedi characters at the end of their lives get a better understanding of the workings of the Force, ultimately becoming one with the force.

    [​IMG]

    I remember the researchstation which Obi Wan uses to verify Anakin's midichlorian count from the Star Wars Identities exhibition. No better image to describe Jedi hubris than this monstrosity :p
     
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  13. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    While I have my problems with the PT, I never understood why fans went ballistic over Midiclorians. The Plot Point was essentially created to put a number on how powerful Anakin Skywalker is, sort of like saying 'Lebron James has an ultra high Basketball Midiclorian count' when he was 10 years old. I think Lucas was underestimating his audience because a great storyteller doesn't have to spell everything out as if he had shown how powerful Anakin through the movies then the point was made. The one key scene is when they take a Midiclorian count of him and Obiwan says that Anakin's is higher then Master Yoda's, so it is essentially telling the audience this 10 year old boy is more gifted then the Head Jedi Master.
     
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  14. Maximus

    Maximus Reel 2 Dialogue 2

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    bang on. GL felt the need to highlight how 'off the scale' Anakin was, and midi.. ugh i can't say it, was the way he went about it.

    - Yoda (ESB)

    - Kenobi (ANH)

    these descriptions have always been enough for me, and always will :)

    Living force... cosmic force... meh
     
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  15. JediMasterRobert

    JediMasterRobert Rebel Official

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    Yes, and (as you well know) the midichlorians reference also set up something beyond that -- something truly special...

    The Sith Legend of Darth Plagueis
     
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  16. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    I think there was definitely a strong element of what you say above. As soon as he went with the chosen one idea, he kind of had to find a way to qualify it in universe. Essentially, he had to bring the genetic element to the foreground. But it is their over reliance on the science and their own power rather than the living Force that I feel the midichlorians represent narratively and I really believe Lucas wanted to present that to us. People (not you) were just too hasty (as ever) to find fault and criticise before actually trying to figure out the meaning behind it all. That's why I love the PT. I can see they're not brilliantly made films. But they're rich. There is a lot going on.

    Oh my. If Luke found this during his search for Jedi lore, never mind Ben Solo, this alone probably explains why he felt the order should end!
     
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  17. Master_Rebado

    Master_Rebado Force Sensitive

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    Albert Einstein did not make anything - he discovered something and could explain it accurately.



    George Lucas wrote a story line within a separate galaxy/universe and had these mystic people who could control/access an "energy field surrounding all living things" as Obi Wan explained in ANH.

    This combined with the explanation from Yoda,Vader and Palpatine suggested that only some could do what they were doing with the force (after training and guidance to attune themselves to this "force" as it'd come to be called).

    It did not say that there were only certain people from certain bloodlines who could do so.

    Skip to PT and we get the midichlorian "explanation" which perhaps did not need explaining as the idea of a mystical force being inside all living things but more present in some life forms was pretty much good enough.

    Even though I thought the midichlorians idea was not needed,it also did not preclude anyone from being force-sensitive and set up any special bloodline ideas.

    Skip to ST and we have Rey who is not only force sensitive but attuned and seemingly needing not much training to do what others before her needed training and time from those who had studied to do.

    Luke did not do a lot of training but then he was being set for a specific task and not a life-long service to the Jedi Order (that was dead) so his strong connection in the force helped that along (plot device of course for the whole Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader redemption arc).

    I do not see anything wrong with either GL or Disney's expression of force abilities myself as it would be arrogant for anyone to think that the limits of what a force wielder could do with the force has been all shown and nothing more to see.

    As a writer in a fictional world,a thing like the force allows for the best part of storytelling - imagination.

    Which brings me back to Albert Einstein:



    [​IMG]
     
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  18. Darth Basin The Greatest

    Darth Basin The Greatest Rebel Official

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    And here is a needless reply!
     
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  19. Benjamin Lewis

    Benjamin Lewis Rebel Official

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    The OT was lightning in a bottle. Lucas is absolutely responsible for giving that to us. But following that, I think Lucas didn't know where to take things. We all know the manner in which the PM script was written.....

    But to say he didn't understand the force, and even for modern haters of the ST to say Disney doesn't understand the force......doesn't make sense.

    The force is a storytelling tool in Star Wars. It is flexible, and usable in whatever manner the writer sees fit for their story.
     
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  20. Maximus

    Maximus Reel 2 Dialogue 2

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    completely agree :)

    i'd like to hear more :D
     
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