Why we really have to talk about Poe

@pawe @Master Skywalker and @Pawek_13 see what I honestly think JJ made a brilliant job and why I'm optimistic

@master_shaitan you're such a reylo! joking...

Before I go, please excuse me if I only reply now. But I've been too much busy in the last days at work.
Plus I was working on what you're going to read (if you really want to) and it's been an hard task trying to do it in a decent English.
I've was also thinking to open a new thread about TFA in the forum about the movie and to put here just the stuff (I guess) I've found about Poe/Vader.

Becouse, honestly, when I've started to look at the movie with "different eyes" so many detalis came out as a result, that I really think it's better to discuss it all.

But... I cannot handle it anymore. It's too much for me and my poor English and I don't really want to duplicate threads.
So let's do it here.

_____

1- THE OLD HEROES (Luke, Leia, Han)

To introduce the argument, let's start with this observation.

In TFA we meet again the 3 heroes of the OT (Han, Leia and Luke) that we've met for the first time in ANH.
Have you ever compared how their personal story arcs evolve in the two movies?
Let's try:

LUKE:
In ANH we follow him, essentially.
In TFA we wait for him, essentially.

LUKE & LEIA:
in ANH, Luke goes in search of her and they meet.
In TFA Leia is searching for him and they don't meet.

HAN & LEIA:
In ANH they meet each other the first time (on the DS)
while in TFA they meet for the last time (in Takodana).
We can also say, that in ANH we see how the story of the Solo family begins
while in TFA we see how it ends.

HAN:
In ANH when he's hired by Obi Wan and Luke - with the M.F. - his life changes.
In TFA when he nails Finn and Rey - with the M.F. - his life returns what it used to be.
In ANH, near the finale, Han leaves the Rebel Base apparently to never come back, but he does.
In TFA, near the finale, he leaves the Resistance Base hoping to come back, but he never will.

I guess we can agree that their story arcs in TFA, if compared to those of ANH, are... reversed.

2 - THE NEW MAIN CHARACTERS
But when it comes to the new hereos, things are not so easy.

You think - for example - that:
Poe hiding the map inside BB8 = Leia hiding the plans inside R2;
that in the rescue scene Finn = Luke while Poe (again) = Leia.
That Rey meeting BB8 = Luke meeting R2
but when she uses a mind trick, you may say Rey = Obi Wan
In the end, when the Starkiller Base blows up you may say taht Poe (now) = Luke blowing up the Death Star (or = Lando in ep.VI).

These interpretations are 100% legit.
And it is intentional by the writers to let you think that's the only way to compare the movies.

However, beside what said above - that each one of them seems to mimic in some scenes
an old character, in other scenes another one - we still may say
(I know there are different interpretations, but just for instance let's take this one)
Rey = Luke (the Jedi at the beginning of the hero's journey);
Finn = Han (the one that gets involved in a bigger story);
Poe = Leia (the Rebel hero)

But I guess that if you look "closely" at the single scenes (and I mean it literally) things may change.
What we do see (and hear) thus what the new characters are really doing,
may unveil or remove the mind trik, the optical illusion.

Showing us that they are not doing what Luke, Leia, etc... do in ANH
but the contrary, the opposite, the reversed thing.
In few words, I believe that almost every scene in TFA is meant as the reflected imagine of one of ANH in a mirror, an actual mirror that reverses things.

Second - and more importantly - that happens even in those scenes that apparently have nothing to do with ANH.
And not only: because there's even an entire section of TFA (about 15') that is meant to mirror (reversing things)
not EP 4, but EP 3.
And it makes perfect sense if the ring composition theory that connects the OT movies to those of the PT makes sense.
According to it, in fact, it's EP 3 that mirrors EP 4.

I believe that details, from lines to objects (some of them among the most famous of TFA) are put here and
there to let us understand it. If we are aware of how that optical illusion works.

But what does it mean exactly "a new character is doing the reversed thing, the contrary, the oppisite of what
and old one does in another movie"?

Let's make it clear: it does not mean that if character named "A" in the old movies is a villain, to do the reverse in TFA
a new one has to be an hero.
You have to look at what they're doing (saying, etc...) in two comparable scenes.

It may be played out in different ways. But here are few examples:

a) FOUCS ON A SINGLE CHARACTER

MOVIE 1
Character named A, wakes up
MOVIE 2
Character named A* falls asleep

M1- A takes something
M2- A* throws something

M1- A buys something
M2- A* doesn't buy or sell something

b) SCENES WITH 2 CHARACTERS

M1: A and B are enemies
M2: A* and B* are friends, allies

M1- A says something to B
M2- B* says something to A*

M1- A is talking on the phone, while B watches TV
M2- B* is talking on the phone, while A* watches TV

c) SCENES WITH MORE THAN 2 CHARACTERS

M1- A and B are playing basketball, C is sitting and watching them.
M2- A* and B* are sit next each other and they watch C* playing basketball alone.
or- B* is playing basketball alone, but this time A* is sit next to C* and them both are watching B* playing alone.

etc...

Hope you've got it.

Now, if you watch TFA aware of that, you'll discover not only that
Rey, Finn, Poe and Kylo are doing the "reverse" of what old heroes do in ANH.
but that any connection new/old character is always the same:
the same new one + the same old one.
Rey is not doing what Luke does here and what Obi Wan is doing there.
She's always doing the contrary of what Luke does or - in some scenes comparable to those with Luke and Obi Wan in ANH -
she and the character that in TFA is doing the contrary of what Obi Wan does in ANH, switch parts.

3- LAST BUT NOT LEAST

Even if you pay attention to the similarities only, TFA and ANH are not totaly alike.
Mainly due what happens in Takodana and because in ANH act III all the major scenes regard
the space battle, while in TFA you have other major scenes set/placed on the Star Killer Base.

In my explaination, I'll follow TFA plot.
If you'll think some major ANH scenes are missing comparing the 2 movies: they're not.
They come in the right moment.

In fact - and that's the 3rd interesting thing - if you look at TFA aware of the "mirrors game" the writers played with us, most of the times those differences come as the most logical result.


COMPARING ANH and TFA plus A BIT OF EP III

ACT I

Let's begin with a little help from the writers.
Who's the first main charater we meet?

IV: VADER-> the leader in Black of the bad guys (so much so he was called Black Leader, in legends), formerly known as the best pilot in the galaxy, that wears a black helmet and flys a black starfighter.
VII: POE -> the so called Black Leader, hero of the good guys, known as the best pilot in the galaxy, that wears a black helmet and flys a black starfighter.
Coincidence or clue hidden in plain sight?

What's he doing?
IV: He's hunting some traitors (from his pov that's what they are) to snatch them somenthing.
His first line being "Where are those transmissions you intercepted?"
VII: He's meeting an ally to receive something from him.
The first shot of him being his hand holding the map.

Who's the second main charater we meet?
IV: Leia
VII: Kylo

Please notice that:

IV: LEIA's original mission - on her father behalf - is to reach Obi Wan (a Jedi in hiding) to gain his help.
But she gets something (the transmissions) thus her ship is attacked.
That's what we learn from the message she records
"My ship has fallen under attack and I'm afraid my mission to bring you to Alderaan has failed"
and from Rogue One (Bail sends her to Obi Wan not to fight on Scarif, but things there don't go as expected, or
fall apart - whatever it is - and she receives the transmissions).

VII: KYLO's mission is to reach Luke (a Jedi in hiding), to prevent his mother to gain his help
(opening crawl "General Leia Organa... is desperate to find her brother Luke and gain his help").
But he still misses something (the map) and so he have to attack the village.
= KYLO is doing the contrary of what LEIA does in ANH.

And, perhaps, it's not coincidence but a clue hidden in plain sight that:

IV: She's the only one - in the whole movie - dressed in total white
VII: He's the only one - in the whole movie - dressed in total black

I'll be back on them, later on.

Let's proceede with VADER/POE

Does he get what he wants?
IV: No.
VII: Yes.

And then

IV: Vader is forced to order the bad guys to go and catch a droid that hides what he hasn't got
VII: Poe is forced to order a droid that hides what he's got to run away from the bad guys.

IV: Vader kills a man while Leia is hiding
VII: Poe is hinding while Kylo kills a man.

And since the writers want you to know this is the game they're playing....

Think about royalty.

IV: Vader calls Leia "Your Highness" always - and never "Princess" - but with contempt.
VII: Poe calls Leia "General" always - and never "Princess" - and with all the due respect.
And if you've thought Lor San Tekka's line was pointless, maybe it's not.

Not sure? Let see who talks
IV: Meeting Leia, Vader talks... second.
VII: Meeting Kylo - as we know - Poe talks "first".
And if you've thought that was only a nice joke... maybe it's not (only).

But believe me, things will get much more interesting.
Before reaching that point, back to Leia and Kylo

IV: Leia is paralized by a laser blast and taken prisoner by Vader.
VII: Kylo paralizes a laser blast and takes Poe prisoner.

And above all:
IV: Leia records a message for Obi Wan.
= She speaks to Obi Wan, though not seeing him.
VII: Kylo stares at Finn, but he doesn't say a word.

(And yes, believe it or not: it's FINN doing the reverse of what OBI WAN does)

Not yet sure? See next:

Back to Vader/Poe

Obviously:

IV: Vader's torturing someone (Leia).
VII: Poe's tortured by someone (Kylo).

If so POE = LEIA, Right? Partially. In fact...

IV:
- Vader used some "mind probe" to "extract information from her".
But Leia resisted. (1)
- Then Vader is told it could be better to change techinque (2)
"Perhaps she would respond to an alternative form of persuasion" (3)

VII:
- As we know from Kylo's words
"No one has been able to get out of you what you did with the map"
= Some "forms of persuasion alternative" to mind probe were used on POE. But he restisted (3*).
- Then, Poe suggests "Might wanna rethink your technique" (2*)
- Finally the "mind probe" is used on him. He fails (1*)
That's because Poe is not = Leia, not always at least, but he's always doing/thinking/telling the contrary of what Vader does.

And probably there's even more:

Does he think that torture may be worth something?

IV: Vader "I told you she would never consciously betray the Rebellion"
= We (you and me) won't intimidate Leia so much so she will betray the Rebellion"
VII: Poe "the Resistence (and me) won't be intimidated by you (Kylo)"
= I'm not going to betray the Rebellion.

Now, you've thought Finn's rescue of Poe is a parallel of the scene with Luke and Leia. Right? It is in the surface.

Because it is also something else (and the opposite of Luke + Leia rescue scene will be: Rey being captured by Kylo, if you pay attention to the destails:
to rescue/ to capture, why taking off the mask, waking up/falling asleep, etc..)

In fact, a friend enters: OBI WAN and FINN

IV: A friend turned into an enemy.
VII: An enemy turning into a friend.

Who's he?
IV: An old and wise man, he hasn't seen from a very long time.
VII: A young and naive man, he has never met before.

How does it start?
IV: It all starts suddenly, because the ship the old man is on board it's captureted inside a space station.
VII: It all starts on purpose, because the young man needs a ship to escape from a space station.

And so:

EPISODE IV: shows us how their mutual story ends. That's the movie's purpose for those 2 characters.
EPISODE VII: shows us how their mutual story begins. That's the movie's purpose for those 2 characters.

But when we meet Vader and Obi Wan in ANH, they already have a backstory and we have 3 Prequels to know about it.
Then, to avoid 3 Prequels to the Sequels where Poe and Finn cannot meet, TFA inserts a little journey into the Prequels.

In fact:

EP VII: POE + FINN: Meeting, escaping and crashing on Jakku scenes

Are the mirroring/reversed scenes of

EP. III: ANAKIN/VADER + OBI WAN First and Last Scene Together

To tell us (or to compare):

EPISODE III: what happened when those 2 last met.
EPISODE VII: what happens now that those 2 are meeting for the first time.

And to make us understand that's the game they're playing, some big clues are put here and there.
Don't you believe it? Well...

III: First Scenes Anakin + Obi Wan

- They have to infiltrate a cruiser to free someone.

- At some point,

OBI WAN tells ANAKIN: "We will do it together".

- Lot happens, till they cannot leave the cruiser.
That's when we hear this:

Obi Wan: Can you fly a cruiser like this?
Anakin: (...) Under the circumstances, I'd say the ability to pilot this thing is irrelevant.
- Humble boy. However, they land.

VII: Fist Scenes Poe + Finn

- They have to leave a Star Destroyer to escape from someone.

- At some point,
POE tells FINN: "We're gonna do this"

- Anyway, they menage to leave the Star Destroyer.
How?

Finn: Can you fly a Tie-fighter?
Poe: I can fly anything.
- Not an humble boy. However, they crash.

In addition

EP. III: The day these two last met

- Anakin felt betrayed by Obi Wan.
- Obi Wan tryed to kill him (he 90% did)

That was also the day

- Anakin recived a new name - or to say it better an alias - from someone.
That someone being the man that during EP III is taking Obi Wan's place in Anakin's life
(new master/old master)
= from the opposite (in that movie) of Obi Wan.

- Since that day Luke and Leia were born, we know that it was also the day
Obi Wan used for the last time his given name "Obi-Wan" instead of an alias (or fake name) "Ben"
Until he and Luke meet in ANH.

EP. VII: The day these two first met

- Poe is befriended by Finn
- Finn tries to save him (he 90% does)

And we know, this is also the day

- Poe gives an actual name to someone - instead of an alias.
That someone being the guy that in EP VII is playing
-> the opposite of Obi Wan.

- And we even know that this is also the day
Finn will use for the first time a fake name (because it's not his given name) "Finn"
instead of an alias (that is his given name) "FN-2187" meeting Rey.


EP. III Last scenes Obi Wan + Vader

- Obi Wan turns away from Anakin, who's almost dying.
- On doing so, he finds and takes Anakin's lightsaber
(and we know how important that lightsaber will be)
- Finally Obi Wan looks away from Anakin sinking into the magma and leaves.

EP. VII Last scens (for now) Finn + Poe

- Finn tries to get inside the Tie fighter to save Poe
- On doing so he only finds and takes Poe's jacket
(and we know how important that jacket will be)
- Then he looks at the Tie fighter as it sinks into the sand and only after it disappears he leaves.

The journey into EP.III is almost came to an end.

And it's perfectly logical: the reverse of the backstory between those two characters has to come
to an end here and like that.
They'll meet again on... Takodama (= on the Death Star)

Before moving on, there's in fact one last thing.

EP. III: Obi Wan ends in Tatooine. It's the beginnin of his exile as a Jedi.
He arrives at night, under a deep blue sky. He leaves baby Luke and we know he has Anakin's lightsaber with him.
EP. VII: Finn is left alone on Yakku. It's the end of his life as a stormtrooper.
It's daytime and he walks under a burning sun. He has Poe's jacket and we know he's going to meet Rey.

Side note: "Truth or lie? Depends from the point of view"
Obi Wan notoriously said the truth from a certain point of view, telling Luke how Anakin died.
That's becouse he knew Anakin/Vader was still alive.

Meeting Rey and BB8, FINN is genuinely convinced that Poe is dead.
But since Poe is still alive, telling Rey how he died
Finn is telling a lie, from a certain point of view.

LUKE + R2 / REY + BB8

Beside that:

IV: R2's mission is to reach someone.
VII: BB8's mission is to wait for someone.

IV: Luke suggestes his uncle to buy R2, a droid that was captured the day before. And that's how they meet.
VII: Rey refuses to sell to Unkar BB8, a droid she met the day before by saving him from being captured.

IV: R2 asks Luke to remove the restraining bolt form him.
VII: Rey tells BB8 he needs the antenna to be fixed, removing it.

IV: Luke tells R2 to wait for him, but he escapes.
VII: Rey tells BB8 he can stay just for the night, but the next morning they're still togheter.

And that's when they meet Obi Wan/Finn
But how exactly?

IV: Luke is attacked by some bad guys (1). He doesn't even have time to react and he loses the fight (2).
Luke ends up on the ground (3)
R2 is hiding and watching the scene (4) when Obi Wan comes to help Luke (5).
Obi Wan notices R2 (6) and tell him not to be afraid (7).
VII: Rey and BB8 are attacked by some bad guys (1*). She reacts and wins the fight (2*).
Finn is hiding and watching the scene without giving any help when BB8 notices him (4* + 6*).
Rey attacks Finn (5*), Finn ends up on the ground.(3*)
BB8 is definitely not scared, so much so he too attacks Finn (7*)

And that's when we hear Obi Wan/Finn saying to Luke/Rey:
IV: "Rest easy son, you've had a busy day"
VII: "I've had a preatty massed up day"

The Millenium Falcon
IV: Technically speaking, Luke and Obi Wan buy passage on the ship, after meeting Han.
VII: Technically speaking, Rey and Finn steal the ship, before meeting Han.

And always techically speaking:
IV: Obi Wan and Luke hire Han and soon after Han helps them escape from the Empire.
VII: Finn and Rey menage to escape from the F.O. without any help but soon after Han nails them.

Not Only:
IV: Luke says he could fly the ship, but Obi Wan shuts up him.
VII: Rey says she can fly a ship and shuts up Finn.

Finally:
IV: Han can't prevent the Falcon to be captured by the Death Star's tractor beam and to be brought into its hangar bay.
VII: Han menages to caputure the Falcon dragging it into his "MASSIVE FREIGHTER" (I copy and paste from the script) and "ITS GIANT HANGAR OPEN LIKE A HUGE MOUTH".

ACT II: (THE DEATH STAR/TAKODANA)

Again Vader/Poe

IV: He (V) is already in the place where the action takes place (the Death Star) when other charaters arrive (H, LK, OW).
That place being somehow the ground. The other characters arriving flying.
VII: He (P) arrives in the palce where the action takes place (Takodana) to reach other charaters already there (H, R, F).
That place being the ground, he arriving flying.

WHAT'S HE DOING?
IV: He have to catch them and the plans he tells his subordinates they have.
VII: He have to rescure them and to retrive the map he's been told by his superiors they have.

Are we sure, this is the game they're playing?

RED FLAG n°8
IV: when those characters arrive, Vader feels OW's presence
= V knows Ow is there, thouth not seeing him.
VII: when Poe arrives Finn notices "That one hell of a pilot"
= F sees Poe, thouth not knowing that is he.

ALSO NOTICE

IV: Han & Comp. are never captured by the Stormtroopers.

MAINLY BECOUSE
Vader's best fighting moment (= killing OW) gives them the chance to rush away.

VII: Han & Comp. surrend to the Stormtroopers.

BUT
Poe's best fighting moment, gives them the chance to break free.

HOWEVER (still following Vader/Poe + O.W./Finn)

IV: In the end they meet and fight against each other.
VII: Each one of them is fighting someone else (but they have to be "allies" from this pov) and in the end they meet.

LET'S LOOK CLOSE

FIRST OPPOSITE: MEETING

IV: (yet inside the Death Star) This is a bad ending "Now the circle is complete" means bad things.
VII: (at the Resistence Base) This is an happy ending, and "You've completed my mission" closes this circle in a good way.

SECOND OPPOSITE: FIGHTING
IV:
Vader is is fighting someone (OW) still loyal to the Jedi Order, the same Order he was part of.
O.W. is fighting (V) a traitor of the Order he's still loyal to.

VII:
P: Fighing the New Order, he is fighting the traitors of the New Republic, the Order he is loyal to.
F: Fighting a Stormtrooper calling him traitor, he's fighting a loyalist of the Order he was part of.

WANT MORE?
Look at the characters

IV: O.W. and LK (Luke) separate. Han is with LK.
LK goes to rescue LA (Leia)

VII: F and R separete. Han is with F.
Rey (Luke's opposite) is captured by Kylo (Leia's opposite).

LEIA+ LUKE / KYLO+REY

WAKE UP/FALLING ASLEEP

IV:
1- LA is sleeping when LK arrives
or if you prefer:
2- LA WAKES UP becouse of LK.
VII:
1- K does something to R and she loses consciounsess
= R. FALLS ASLEEP becouse of K
2- (later on, inside the cell of the Starkiller Base)
R WAKES UP and K is there.

THE MASK
IV: LA says something (a funny joke to provoke LK)
LK takes off the stormtrooper mask.
VII: R says something (a kind of bad joke to provoke K)
K takes off his mask..

HAN = HAN... BUT:
IV: Obi Wan sacrifices himself allowing Vader to kill him,
so Han & comp. don't get caught and can leave.
VII: Han saves Finn but they are caught (1st and 2nd opposite),
then Poe hits the Stormtoopers and they're freed (3rd opposite).

HAN + LEIA
IV: This is where the first meet. Becouse he comes and helps on rescuing her.
VII: This is where they last meet. Becouse she comes and helps on rescuing him.

O.W. /FINN + LUKE/REY

IV: OW dies, LK screams No!, but LK is free to go, running.
VII: F is save, but R is taken. So F screms NO! running.

FATHER AND SON
IV: A father (the villain) catches a glimpse of his lost son (the hero).
VII: A father (the hero) catches a glimpse of his lost son (the villain)
*I know, I said P is the opposite of Vader, in fact here I say "a father", we will get to Vader/Lule + Obi Wan, later on trust me.

However, isn't this super amazing?

BACK TO VADER/POE, WHAT IS THE OUTCOME?

IV: The plans are lost.
The Rebels escape and fly to the Rebels Base.
The prisoner (Leia) is released.

VII: The map is retrived.
The allies are freed and reached by the Resistence.
One of them - however - is taken prisoner.

ACT III
SPACE BATTLE

Yeah, of course, here Poe is almost doing what Luke does in EP. IV.

However, when the Space Battle over the Death Star begins, Luke is just one of many rebel pilots sent into mission. Only in the last moments of the battle, he's in the leading position.
In additon, if we compare the lines of Luke and Poe, there are not callbacks.

But if we compare P and V...

LEADING
IV: he's the one in Total Black and the leader of the bad guys.
He wears a balck helment and flys a black Tie Fighter.
He's leading the defence.

VII: he's the so called Black Leader
He wears a black helmet, he flys a black X-Wing
He's leading the attack.

IN FACT, THAT'S WHAT HE SAYS COMING INTO ACTION
IV:[Several fighters have broken off from the main group]. Come with me!
VII: [Roger, base -- red squad, blue squad], Take my lead!

Side note: want a summary of the overall trilogy?
IV: The Force is strong with this one!
VII: As long as there's light [light side of the force, a Rey of light?], we got a chance.

GETTING NEAR THE TARGET
IV: I'll take them myself. Cover me!
VII: I'm going in. Pull up and cover me!

SUDDENLY:
IV: A wingman warms him "Look out!"
(it's the Millennium Falcon - AN ENEMY)
It's a danger.

VII: A pilot tells him "There's a new brand hole in that oscillator.
Looks like OUR FRIEND got in"
It's an opportunity.

HOW DOES IT COME TO AN END?
IV: The M.F. throws him away (1). LK - the enemy - hits the target (2).
VII: He hits the target (2), he waits for the M.F. (1).

AND TALKING ABOUT FORCE SENSITIVE PEOPLE
IV: I have you now! (chasing Luke)
VII: I've got eyes on them! (finally seeing the M.F. with Rey on board)

That's becouse they want you to know, this is the game they're playing.

IN FACT, LOOK CLOSE:

V/P plus OW's ghost and LK/R + unconscious Finn

IV: V. leaves the Death Star and chases LK while OW's ghost in speaking to LK
VII: P. leaves the Rebel Base and when the MF shows up he escortes R and un unconscious F

If so, then this is not yet V. meeting LK on the Death Star ("noooooo!" scene).

Steep Back
LUKE and REY'S POV

IV: We know Luke is fighting in Space during the EP. IV finale. We also know, the ghost of Obi Wan Kenobi is talking to him. The bad guy is chasing him.
VII: We know Rey is not in space during the space battle. We also know Finn is left unconscious beside her while she's fighting a bad guy.

That's the 1st opposite:
IV: OW is dead but he can comunicate with Luke.
VII: F is alive but he cannot comunicate with Rey.

Second:
IV: the ghost of OW (HIS PROTECTOR) tells LK to use the Force.
VII: the bad guy (HER AGGRESSOR) speaks about the Force. R uses it.

BUT WAIT A MOMENT, I SAID KYLO IS THE OPPOSITE OF LEIA.
RIGHT? YES. IN FACT

IV: LA is on Yavin IV, the target of the Death Star.
VII: K is on the Starkiller Base, the weapon itself.

IV: LA has met LK and they've joined forces.
VII: K has met R and they've not joined forces.

IV: LA gained the help of OW, but in the end they don't really meet each other, never.
VII: K lost F to his cause ("traitor"), but in the end they face each other, again.

AND MORE THAN ANYTHING
If so, in ANH you don't have a scene with only (AND ONLY) those 3 charcters (Leia, Obi Wan and Luke) together. Right?
Wrong. There is one. An interesting one.

IV: INSIDE OBI WAN HUT (DAY)
LK, OW + LA's hologram.

OW: Takes Anakin's lightsaber and HANDS IT TO SOMEONE (LK)
OW: In fact, he wants that someone to have it.
OW: becouse - HE SAYS - "This is your father's lightsaber".

After listening to LA's message

OW: decides to help her.
He's going to reach her and (as we know) to DIE in the attempt.

LK: uses Anakin's lightsaber for the first time, but he's still reluctant on helping OW to help LA.
LK: He's told by OW (his PROTECTOR) "You must learn the ways of the Force"

VII:
F: Takes Anakin's lightsaber and USES IT AGAINST SOMEONE (K)
F: In fact, he does not want that someone to have it "Come and gate it" (with anger)
F: He's TOLD by K "that lightsaber, it belongs to me" (= that's my grandpa's lightsaber)
F: He certainly does not want to help K.
He fights him and (as we know) he ALMOST DIES in the attempt.

R: uses Anakin's lightsaber for the first time, becouse she desperately wants to help F and to fight K.
R: She's told by K (her AGGRESSOR) "I can show you the ways of the Force".

DOUBTS?
WELL, If Rey has to do the opposite of Luke, but she still has to be the Jedi heroine of the saga, then she have to the accept the call of destiny, but we have to wait almost the all movie (while with Luke the waiting takes few scenes); she have to fight the enemy but she will do it with using the lightsaber, while Luke in ANH only does it in the space battle...
If Finn has to be the opposite of OW, then he cannot be him the one who talks about the Force... but somehow they overcome the problem: when Maz does it, he is not there (interesting); when R finds the lightsaber... she finds it, no one gives it to her. Or at least it's the lightsaber itself calling to her. Unlikely Luke...

So - playing this kind of game - we have to arrive here to see those things.

If Finn is the opposite of OW, Rey of LK and Kylo of LA, then they have to have this kind of journey and to reach this point.

IV:
Luke and Leia: they end their journey in ANH as allies.
Luke and Obi Wan: they end their journey knowing they won't see each other (I know about the ghost.. but you can get it: OW is still actually dead).
Obi Wan and Leia: He reached her, helped her and died.

VII:
Rey and Kylo: they end their journey in TFA as enemies.
Rey and Obi Wan: they end their journey in the words of Rey knowing they'll see each other (Finn is in a coma but still alive, afeter all).
Finn and Kylo: F escaped from him, fought him and surived.

WHAT ABOUT VADER, OBI WAN AND LUKE?
OR POE, FINN AND REY?

Well, they have to be in the same place, at least for few seconds.

IV:
That happens - notoriously - on the Death Star in the final moments of Vader and Obi Wan duel.
That's the sequence:

Ow: dies and what's left of him, falls on the floor.
LK: screams.
V: puts one foot on OW's cloak to make sure he's dead and then goes to Luke.
LK: runs, but
LK + V: their eyes meet.

VII:
That happens - though few realize it - when they get back from the StarKiller Base (anther opposite: inside the DS; coming back fror the SKB)

F: is in a coma (still alive) and transported on a litter (= he does not touch the ground).
R: is silent.
P: Follows the litter with F to make sure F is alive.
R: stands still, but
P & R: their eyes meet.

Since few realize it, see the picture



AND SINCE THEY WANT YOU TO KNOW THIS IS THE TRUE CALLBACK,
COMING NEXT:

IV: Inside the M.F. LA comforts LK. They both have lost OW, but we know is LK the one suffering the most.
VII: Outside the M.F. (just in fornt of it), LA and R embrace. The script says "Rey is so sad for Leia, so sorry".
Leia is heartbroken: she has just lost Han. So, the both of them have lost someone important, but we are sure who's the one suffering the most.

BUT BACK TO FINN, REY AND POE

WHY the callback with OW/LK/V has to be placed there and then (at that time on the movie)?

I guess the reason lies in the connection between the ST on one side and the OT and the PT on the other.

In the SWU relationships between characters are a core theme.
In the OT we've got Luke and Leia, Laia and Han, Luke and Han, Han and Chewbacca, Luke and Obi Wan, etc..
But I guess we all can agree that the main relationship of the original trilogy is that of Luke and Vader.
In the PT we've got others, but mainly Anakin and Padme and Anakin and Obi Wan.

Therefore, if we consider all the 6 movies, 3 are the main protagonists, the 3 heoroes of the overall story:
Anakin/Vader (PT-OT), Obi Wan (PT-OT) and Luke (OT).

So I think is clear why the writers may have chosen those 3 old characters as...
I don't know how to say it... starting points? archetypes? call them however you wish, for the 3 new heroes.
Now, if what I guess I've found is true, the question is (and the right definition I missed above depends on the answer)
what are the writers intentions?
What's their true purpose?

To be honest as I said at the beginning, I guess there could be no one beside to pay an homage to the 6 movies we know and love.
Perhaps they just want to make people have fun and this stuff tell us a lot (and only) about good, exellent writing. It's pure genius.
I don't know if these connections old-characters/new-ones have a further meaning.

If you have read my crazy theory on the discussion about Rey's parents, forget it: that's for fun. I'm 90% sure it's too crazy.

But to tell you the truth, I really doubt or I just can't see what may be the outcome if this is meant to tell us something more.

I don't think it answer to the main questions TFA left open (in fact there's no connection at all with that), just to say one thing.

But we are here to debate, so... I don't know. Let's see what you think.

 

This is totally unexpected

To celebrate, I can add something....

As we know, in ANH Obi Wan explains Luke what the Force is, how it works, etc...
In the post above I've said that even if we have a connection Finn/Obi Wan in TFA,
Finn (as Obi Wan "opposite") cannot be the one doing that.
But why is Maz?

Well... Obi Wan knows everything about Luke.
He knows who his real father is and all that stuff...
Meeting Rey, Maz asks Han "Who's the girl?"

She can figure it out or not after Han's answer (in the conversation we've never seen).
But at least at the beginning she does not know who the girl is.

But if from Rey/Luke p.o.v., all the scene with Maz and the Lightsaber (inside Maz' Castle),
it's the opposite to that of
Luke, Obi Wan and the Lightsaber (inside OW's hut).

If this makes any sense, I must say... maybe they put in the movie Maz's question to Han, for some reasons
that have nothing to do to what we've speculated so far...

As for the line "the belonging you seek is not behind you" -> that of Luke was, of course, Obi Wan was "using" Anakin's legacy as Luke's father to persuade him...

I don't know... but if so, maybe (I'll say it again "maybe") the implications of all those things may have some importance...

 

I kindly disagree... In the sense that once they've decided to take the character alive.. Ithey've done a brilliant good job (as I tried to explain above).

 

I don't have a copy of the Art of TFA. I've only read some stuff about it so I may be totally wrong, but...
If I'm right the character "Jhon Doe" was meant to be instrumental to let Sam know about the map and soon after he had to disappear.
I think it's for this reason that people conclude Jhon Doe = Poe (that was supposed to die).
But I guess there's the chance that the character named Jhon Doe evolved into Lor San Tekka.
While with the ideas (several) developed for Sam they've been able to create 2 characters: Finn and Poe.
Beside the look, the attitude given back then to Sam seems to fit more with Poe (same for the idea of having him saved on Jakku by some villagers, something we don't see in the movie, but it's told in the novelization).
Others aspects cleary fit with Finn's arc.

Of course it's pure speculation.

 

Or it's intentional.
And the Poe was supposed to die it's a lie.
As it was that of Benedict Cumberbatch, not going to play Khan

http://www.slashfilm.com/benedict-cumberbatch-on-j-j-abrams-khan-comment-what-a-dckhead/

I'm not 100% sold on this.
But JJ was fully aware that what made ep V great was that you didn't have any clue of the I am yoiur father twist (because you coudn't).

If there's going to be a twist in ep VIII that cannot be related to Rey's parents.
Whoever they are, people have speculated about it relentlessly since TFA came out.
We lost the count of the theories we've explored.
Whatever the solution is, it will be a solution of a mistery they've put in front of our eyes.
Not a twist.
And even if the hypothesis "Luke killed them" - as many suggest - will be proved right, that
would be still incomparable to "I'm your father".
It may introduce an interesting dynimic. But that's not a shoking twist.

Same for anything else we've talked about not related to Rey: Who is Snoke? Why did Kylo turn? Did he really kill Luke's students? etc...

Those are the things they wanted us to pay attention, to focus on.
And they will give us answers.
And maybe not only good, but not obvious answers.
Still, these answers won't be "the big shoking twist no one could have ever imagine".

But if you put a character in a side, if people don't talk, don't speculate about it, because he was suppose to die, etc...

I don't want to convince you or any one else.
I'm not 100% convinced

But I'm just saying.... what if?