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SPOILER Why we really have to talk about Poe

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by lealt, Apr 3, 2017.

  1. Pawek_13

    Pawek_13 Rebel Official

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    I think Abrams learned his lesson on lying about plot details. People didn't respond too warmly to what was he doing with the whole Khan debacle. Besides, how would the film benefit from it? In case of his second Star Trek film his actions were taken so to not to spoil the big reveal that Cumberbatch's character was in fact Khan but in this case there was really no point in it, especially since this information surfaced after TFA's premiere, as far as I remember. Ithink that he and Kasdan didn't really have an idea on how to implement him after the crash, that's why there isn't much mystery surrounding him. Not everyone needs to be Rey. ;)
     
    #41 Pawek_13, May 14, 2017
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  2. lealt

    lealt Rebel Commander

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    That's not the point in fact.
    Rey is the big mistery and the heroine of this trilogy, no matter what.
    That's for sure.

    I'm just saying, if there's going to be a big twist (I mean truly big) it cannot be related to her or to something
    we're already speculating about.
    And just to be clear: I don't even think the (big) twist it must be "discovering" a real parentage.
    It could be any thing: maybe another character becoming a villain in the end.
    Just to say the first thing that comes up to my mind.

    In this sense, diverting attention may be worth.
    Maybe even lying. I'm afraid, the rest of world outside US knows little about that Star Strek story.
    That's something you have to consider thinking about it... SW is just another (bigger) thing...

    But again, just to say.
     
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  3. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    Is there a chance that Poe could be a secret skywalker and that's why Luke gave him the tree? I think so. Not saying that's gonna happen or anything but your points make it too good NOT to be true. If it's not true then LFL is just being Abby tease :p. What if Poe is the real hero of this trilogy and that's the big twist? Poe seems to be more important than we think.
     
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  4. Darth Daigo

    Darth Daigo Rebel Official

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    No, he is not a Skywalker. (1) We have already seen Poe's parents (Shara Bey and Kes Dameron) and (2) the timeline would not make sense. Poe was born a few years before the Battle of Yavin Endor.


    Edit: I initially wrote Yavin, which should, of course, have been Endor.
     
    #44 Darth Daigo, May 14, 2017
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  5. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    His mom could have had a secret affair? Idk lol. And yeah I didn't know about that last part
     
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  6. Darth Daigo

    Darth Daigo Rebel Official

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    The Shattered Empire comic shows the first meeting between Shara Bey (Poe's mother) and Luke. Poe is already born then.
     
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  7. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    Yeah I don't read the books much so I wasn't fully aware
    .
     
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  8. Darth Daigo

    Darth Daigo Rebel Official

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    I do agree with the OP's and your point that Poe's role is probably bigger than a casual view of TFA might suggest. I just do not think that his importance is caused by some secret bloodline. However, his exposure to the Force tree may have helped him to become the excellent pilot that he is.
     
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  9. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    Sort of like kyber Krystal's but more organically
     
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  10. Talon Karrde

    Talon Karrde Rebel Official

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    Indeed, there will be little surprise at the answer of Rey's lineage, just butthurt or satisfaction. I do think, had the internet existed outside of the military in the late 70s and if emerging videocassette had been more common, somebody would have made the Luke/Vader plot twist theory.

    But don't discount plot twists with the main characters. I consider the opera house to be a plot twist, and I reacted to it as such. You keep hearing Anakin is "Space Jesus" then you learn Anakin is really just the result of Plags and Palps playing wierd science.


    And IMHO another plot twist is when Mace Windu tells Anakin to go sit in detention while he goes to battle a threat the Galaxy has not faced in 1000 YEARS. I don't know about you, but.. I'd want to have the guy who just killed Count Dooku riding in the same gunship. I mean, it's not even a "If we don't come back, rally the temple and every Jedi in 3 parsecs!" it's just "Stay by yourself, don't talk to anyone, and reflect on how much we think your dog@#!$"

    Now, with Poe I don't see a plot twist in his origins; that looks pretty locked up. But we could something occur within his present to alter out perspective on him or even events. My Poe, this really nice guy, does something absolutely dastardly in the name of the resistance.. and you see this new A-hole side of him you never considered. Think Cassian Andor.
     
  11. lealt

    lealt Rebel Commander

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    Before dropping the bomb, let me be clear about few things.

    1- I really believe any parallel we may find between some characters/scenes etc... may be just a cool reference. Nothing more.
    A tribute to or the application of the notion "it rhymes, it's like poetry".
    Something about how you write a story, a script... technically speaking.

    I remember Lucas saying that the first scenes of Ep 1, with Qui Gon and Obi Wan, were ment
    as mirror scenes of R2 and C3P0 arrival at Jabba's Caste, at the beginnin of Ep VI
    And of course there isn't any blood connection between the 4 of them.
    It's just a cool thing.
    End of the story.

    2- The section I've found on PDFL may be just that.

    3- But it gave me the hint to look at TFA from another point of view.
    Less obvious but absolutely in line with the idea "it rhymes, it's like poetry".
    I'm still working on that.
    I will probably edit most of the post I wrote above.
    I'm taking my time, because it's really hard to me: I've found so many things, details that I'm a bit knock out ;).
    And it's difficult - my fault - to explain it all in a decent English.
    I'm also trying to collect (and to make) few imagines that may help.

    4- However if I'm right about the way I now look at TFA - and I honestly think that I am, because
    there's too much to be just coincidence - that regards all movie and all the characters (not just Poe),
    That said, it could be still something without any further meaning.
    I really believe that could be the case.
    It may be just good writing.

    In this sense, what I said before about the "big" twist it's just an opinion.
    Probably it's just a matter of taste. What I'd prefer: something completely unexpected.

    In few words: I don't take what I guess I've found as "the" clue, the smoking gun.

    But to be 100% honest, I think we cannot rule out the opposite case.
    That all the movie (TFA) was meant to appear in a different way, in retrospect: once all the story will be told.

    Now, the bomb.
    I'm joking... but I want to prove that since we haven't pay so much attention to this character, we may
    have missed details that in on one hand don't prove there's going to be a big twist about him,
    at the same time leave the door open for that twist.
    And we've missed them, becasue we were sure nothing interesting could come from him.

    In fact I first noticed them talking with some of you in this thread. Replying to some questions.

    However:
    Heir to the Jedi, it's a novel about few adventures of Luke in the years between ANH and ESB (the years that matter for what I'm about to explain).
    He meets a girl he falls for but she dies and that's where the novel ends.
    That proves only that by that time he's not committed to a life of not attachment.
    He's not in fact a Jedi: as said this happens before ep. V, before he goes to Hoth, before he leaves to train with Yoda etc...

    Now, Let's say that later on, he meets another girl.
    This time something more happens, but they'll never see each other again.
    He is a busy Rebel, he leaves to reach the Hoth Base and... meanwhile the girl dies... in childbirth. Or soon after.
    Since we've never saw Shara Bey pregnant, what if the Demeron adopted a child? That child?
    The time line... fits.
    And I think a back story like that is less complicated than any possible backstory expalining how it is possible
    that Rey is Luke child.

    In addition:

    Yes, Shattared Empire shows us the first meeting Shara/Luke.
    And Luke says to her "You look familiar".
    How can she look familiar, if they've never met before?
    Ok, he's a force sensitive, he may had a premonition... but still: theres' room to speculate.
    Maybe Shara was that girl sister, cusin. A friend living nearby.
    And that's possible.
    Because we don't know exactly when she joined the Rebellion.
    We only know it was "prior the Battle of Hoth".

    Then, when she meets Leia, she tells her not to write a condolence letter for her family if she dies.
    Why? The cominc suggest it's because she doesn't want to give Leia any other burden.
    Ok, Shara is cool. Or maybe... she's hiding from "the records" something or someone.
    Because - as we know - those kind of letters were recorded.
    And we know it, because years after Leia will write that letter.
    The big difference is that by that time the war ended.
    The empire wasn't there anymore.
    Maybe what scared Shara wasn't there anymore.
    Or maybe not. Because...

    In Before the Awaking there's another detail I didn't notice before (as those above).
    Why Kes Dameron in the year 7 ABY is "scared"?
    He tells his son that now he's scared, while during the war he was worried but not scared.
    He says "I'm scared it was all for nothing".
    But in the 7 ABY I don't think the FO was yet a threat.
    In Bloodline, set few years before TFA, Leia, an high profile person, a senator, is discovering how much powerfull that threat is.
    But how and or why a former soldier, living in a colony 20 years before Bloodline, can be so fully aware of it, so much so... he's scared?
    There could be 100 explainations, that don't have nothing to do with a big twist to come.
    But again: you can speculate.

    The thing is - I guess - without the "Poe was supposed to die" thing or if the character had more screen time in TFA,
    we probably would have speculated about it.
    There would be as much theories as those about Snoke.
    Most likely completelly wrong, in the end.
    But they would have been there...
     
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  12. Master Skywalker

    Master Skywalker Clone Commander

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    I absolutely understand why they did it in the film that was made, but that's the problem with the entire concept; the film that was made. There is a plot where all three characters serve the story and deliver an arc that dovetails at the climax of the film, unfortunately we were not blessed with that film. Given the film's poor oversight and its attempt to brush this under the rug rather than properly develop is evidence of time; Michael and Kasdan needed another revision to the script, I am leaving Abrams out because I feel he doesn't understand the nature of the story anyway. So, in summation, I don't know if it has to do with a spotlight issue, I really believe it's a mistake that lies at the feet of the director/screenwriter that is Abrams.
     
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  13. Talon Karrde

    Talon Karrde Rebel Official

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    Wait a second, you're leaving Abrams out of the equation and then blaming him for Kasdan&Arndt.. :confused:
    Look, I feel your butthurt on the script. Arndt said he needed another 18 months. That wreaks of preproduction hell. You know what eight years of script delays did for GitS? Made it a borefest. The script for AotC didn't show up until 48 hours prior to shooting. Do I need to go into that flaming dumpster? They had to do something.
    But all three of these characters serve the story. Dont believe me? Go ask the "Mary Sue" crowd about how little Rey serves the story. All three of these characters lead us to the climax. Finn is on an arc that dovetails into the climax "TRAITOR!!" Rey is on an arc that dovetails into the climax "MONSTER!" And Poe.. well, not so much. Dameron is an island of stability in a movie about people with emotional baggage. Strangely enough many folks who poopoo Rey and Finn love Poe. You do touch on an interesting point: What are Poe Dameron's flaws? What are his 'negative consequences'? When is he challenged? What is his backstory in the movie?
    What are the actual differences between Poe.. and Rey?:rolleyes:
     
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  14. KitValori

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    If Poe was supposed to die as it has been suggested, it is no doubt because a writer other than Abrams saw the potential of the character and his arc.

    In my eyes this is Jack 2.0. Even if you've never seen the TV show “Lost” one of the characters most synonymous with it is Jack Shepard.

    (This is another one of Abrams abandoned shows with more questions than answers) Any way in the pilot Jack was supposed to die!

    Lost would not have been as allegorically charming if not for the Perfect Hero Surgeon who swoops in and leads the dysfunctional castaways.

    Abrams thought Jack dying in the pilot would serve “shock value” to the audience.

    Someone who thought people were smarter than that instead probably said, "hey if we're on a magical island rehashing biblical parables perhaps the whole man of science vs man of faith arc could come in handy?”

    Six seasons later and Jack most certainly was one of the most prolific and multidimensional characters whose noble nature and ideas were tested but also his arc tied significantly to the mythology of the story as a whole.

    Point being Abrams probably wanted to kill Poe either for shock or because he prefers to write underdog characters and struggles with the Leader archetype. Some other writer/writers were probably like, “whoa! This is a different side of Star Wars we haven't intently explored: we have A Jedi and A Storm Trooper, The Resistance needs a face all its own to tie all sides of The War.”



    Could it have been executed better?

    Well, yes.



    Will Poe have a more significant role in TLJ?

    With his parents being tied to Luke and the Force Tree. Probably. It's very Disney and it's very Abrams (Tree of Life Motif). Next to being descended from royalty, I would say your parents being notable resistance fighters is another way to mark a character with born importance and responsibilities.

    Much like Kylo’s Skywalker legacy has influenced and made him question his place in the galaxy, Poe could serve an interesting mirror or parallel to the story questioning his own decisions based on his parents loyalties.



    Honestly, my theory is the idea of The Force is changing. With all the talk about The Church of the Force, Force Trees, Kyle crystals, and The Whills I believe we are seeing how the force manifests through people and objects differently.


    Poe will probably serve as one of these incarnations.
     
  15. lealt

    lealt Rebel Commander

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    @Master Skywalker and @Talon Karrde believe me if I say that I find both your arguments logical and legit, thugh you don't agree one anther.

    And of course, you don't have to agree with me.
    But...

    "The way it works out in TFA is that Finn acts as a crossover character in Rey and Poe's individual comic book lines."

    That's somehow what Obi Wan does in ANH with Luke and Vader. We may say it's him that put those two together.
    In ANH you only have one scene with the 3 of them, in TFA you only have one scene with the 3 of them together.
    And I believe the scene in TFA it's indeed the mirror scene of that of ANH.

    But that's the climax.

    If we look at the journey, it goes like that.

    ANH: Starts with Vader and Leia
    TFA: Starts with Poe and Kylo

    Then:
    ANH: introduces Luke
    TFA: introduces Rey

    Then comes the moment when plots seem not to follow the same path:

    ANH: introduces Obi Wan when he and Luke meet each other.
    TFA: introduces Finn before. First when Kylo looks at him and then when he saves Poe.

    Thing is, I do believe (if Kylo mirrors Leia, Poe mirrors Vader and Finn mirrors Obi Wan) that:
    Kylo + Finn is the mirror scene of Leia recording the message for Obi Wan
    (she talks to him, but she doesn't see him -> the reverse/mirror scene is: Kylo looking at Finn and not saying a word)

    Poe + Finn, scenes are mirrors scenes of Ep 3 scenes.
    And it makes sense.
    ROTS= what happened the last time Vader and Obi One saw each other (before meeting again on the DS).
    TFA= what happens when Poe and Finn first meet (before meeting again on Takodana).

    Plus:
    ROTS: Obi Wan ends on Tatooine to leave baby Luke and we know he's got Anakin's lightsaber
    TFA: Finn is left alone on Jakku with Poe's jacket and we know he's going to find Rey

    Then:

    ANH: Luke + Obi Wan (and Han)
    TFA: Rey + Finn (and Han)

    Meanwhile in ANH you see few scenes Vader + Leia (interrogation, etc..)
    In TFA by this time you've already seen Poe being interrrogated by Kylo.

    ANH: Luke + Obi Wan + Han arrive on the Death Star.
    TFA: Rey + Finn + Han arrive in Takodana.

    Add to that that to me
    The "That's one hell of pilot" line mirrors Vader feeling Obi Wan's presence on the Death Star
    (Vader doesn't see Obi Wan, but he knows Obi Wan is there, he recognizes him
    Finn sees Poe, but he doesn't recognize him)

    And so on. But though there are differences in the sequence of events still the "mirror scenes/reference" are there.

    This is why I don't think there are plot holes.
    I believe they followed a precise path, we may like or not.
    I personally love it: becasue it's subtle.
    But that's a matter of taste (and of course only if what I believe makes any sense)

    But I guess there's even more, proving that Finn's arc is also connected to the idea that he is (as Obi Wan was)
    the one who has to put togheter Poe and Rey.

    If you compare the scenes Finn + Poe to those Finn + Rey... it rhymes, it's like poetry :)

    Beside all the times where Poe and Rey say to Finn exactly the same thing, there are few other things that I find interesting.

    When Rey sees for the first time Finn, he's wearing Poe's jacket.
    In fact it's because of the jacket that BB8 points out Finn to Rey.
    The shot Rey + BB8 is identical to that of
    Poe + BB8 when Poe sees again Finn (at the Resistance base)... wearing his jacket.

    Not only:
    Poe tells Finn "BB8 told me you've saved me"
    and then they hug.

    Later on on the Starkiller Base
    Rey tells Finn "He [Chewie] is saying it was your idea [to come here to save me]
    Then they hug.

    Again, I'd say, we may have enjoyed more another kind of dynamics.
    Though I admit, I find it amazing.
    But beside personal tastes, I believe nothing is random or not intentional.
    These are not plot holes, but plot choises.

    Last but not least.
    We know in TFA Poe and Rey don't share a word (as Vader and Luke in ANH).
    But we also know the meeting described in the novelization was in the script (Hidalgo confirmed that).
    What is interesting to me is not that it hints to a romance or at least to some kind of attraction.

    But the lines, if compared (again) to those of the scenes where Finn+Poe and Finn+Rey introduce themselves one another.

    This is the missing meeting Poe+Rey

    [​IMG]

    Look close:
    Poe first introduces himself.
    "Uh, hi" the pilot mumbled "I'm Poe."
    With Finn, he first asks him what's his name.

    POE: Hey, what's your name?
    FINN: FN-2187!

    However nothing "strange" untill now.

    But then comes Rey's reply and that may suggest any line (if compared) is not coincidence:
    First she says "I recognize the name"
    Therefore among millions possible lines, curiously those words are exactly the contrary of "I don't know your name" which is what Rey told Finn.
    And then "So you're Poe. Poe Dameron" And that's curiously what Poe said to Finn, at the end "I'm Poe. Poe Dameron"
    Side note, again "curiously" she adds something "The x-wing pilot." Kind of remind me of "I've never met a Resistance fighter before".

    Ok, the scene is not in the movie.
    But it was in the script.
    Maybe it was meantto close a full circle, with Finn acting as the one who connects (puts together) the other 2.
    Maybe it's just me seeing too much.
    Maybe there's too much to be ignored.
     
    #55 lealt, May 16, 2017
    Last edited: May 16, 2017
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  16. zagernevans

    zagernevans Clone Commander

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  17. LarsSkywalker

    LarsSkywalker Rebel General

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    isnt the Poe-Rey cnnection already BB-8
     
  18. lealt

    lealt Rebel Commander

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    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I guess it's Finn. As Obi Was in ANH. (BB8 was instrumental, as R2 was).

    @zagernevans forgot somenting? :)
     
    #58 lealt, May 19, 2017
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
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  19. zagernevans

    zagernevans Clone Commander

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    bad phone!


    I really think you're on to something here. tfa does seem to have used the lucasian "rhyming" structure, but will the remaining 2 movies continue it? I think they might because I think there is a good chance that this story structure was a decision of the whole story group, not just a whim of abrams. so now we can look at the empire strikes back and wildly speculate on what will happen in the last jedi!

    I'll start with the big one. in esb, vader tells luke that he is his father. transposing to tlj, rey will reveal to poe something. the two have a midmovie fling, rey tells poe that he is the father.
     
  20. lealt

    lealt Rebel Commander

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    That's the big question for me. Not just the revalation: but if they're going to use the same "trick".
    I don't know and I believe we have to wait until the movie will come out.
    And that's why I'm not 100% sure the "mirror" thing is meant to foreshadow how the overall story will be played out.

    Given the little we know about TLJ it could be.

    Just to say:
    V: Luke leaves the rest of the Rebels to go and train with Yoda
    VIII: Rey has (at some point) to leave Ahch to to join again the Resistance

    We have to see where she ends: if she ends with Luke on training the path (reversed) will match.

    Hoth (ice) vs Crait (salt)

    Then there were some spoilers

    Poe: apparently he is leading the Resistance Fleet and it seems the fleet is chased by the FO.
    vs
    Vader leading the Empire Fleet to chase the Rebels at the beginning of V.

    Laura Dern apparently is playing someone (in the Resistance) that has an "antagonistic" relationship with Poe.
    Could this relationship be the mirror of Vader+the Emperor (we first see him, in V)?

    The main problem I see it's Finn.
    I do believe in TFA he was "mirroring" Obi Wan.
    And it makes sense that in the end he's on a coma:
    Finn = survived, he's alive, but he cannot communicate
    vs
    Obi Wan = he died, but being a force ghost he can communicate

    But how can you use this connection Finn/Obi Wan and have Finn as a main character in the next movies?
    They may use the prequels, as they've already done in that section of TFA that mirrors ep. III instead of IV.
    However it's not so easy.

    The other chance is making a new connection: Han/Finn.
    And it could be:
    Han ends ep. V frozen in the carbonite
    vs
    Finn starts ep VIII in a coma and inside that "pod" we see in the trailer.
    It also looks like Finn has a lot of scenes with Rose (she may be mirroring Lando).

    Let's pretend that will be case: it regards only Finn?
    But then: what about the others?

    Again, I think we shall wait and see.
     
    #60 lealt, May 20, 2017
    Last edited: May 20, 2017
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