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Will The Rise of Skywalker be ROTJ 2.0?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by techsteveo, Jun 10, 2019.

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Will The Rise of Skywalker feel like a rehash of Return of the Jedi?

  1. It is unavoidable. It is it's destiny

    5.7%
  2. Mesa no think so

    94.3%
  1. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    I'm posting this poll and thread because I'm a little worried. I'm worried that the story choices up to this point have led us to only a few possible conclusions to this trilogy. Those conclusions (and some of the leaks) point to TROS following the recipe of ROTJ.

    Do you think we are getting ROTJ 2.0? Can JJ deliver an original satisfying ending?

    Here are my concerns...

    Ben Solo's redemption
    Too many parallels to Vader here. The last Jedi hero character has connection to villain character and wants villain to turn good.

    Palpatines return as the big bad
    I'm excited to see how everything fits but it already has minimized the victory in ROTJ. If Anakin's redemption only postponed Palpatines plans by 35 years then that's bad writing.

    The Title
    You could have easily named ROTJ The Rise of Skywalker. It literally fits.

    The Story
    I know we don't know the plot yet. But its not difficult to see there isn't really an option for certain events to unfold.
    • Kylo and Rey will fight again.
    • Rey will not require any more training.
    • Primitives on horses will fight the technically superior First Order.
    • The First Order will fall and their leader will be destroyed but remnants will remain.
    • Old Jedi Luke will guide The last Jedi Rey to face her enemy.
    • Rey, (like Luke found out he had a sister) will get new info about her family.
    • Kylo will become Ben Solo (maybe) just like Vader became Anakin...and die (maybe).
    • There will be a major space battle intercut with the final duel. (There better be a space battle!).

    I'm sure there's more. I'd love to hear what everyone thinks.
     
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  2. YetAnotherSuperweapon

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    Firstly, I don't think TFA is an ANH remake or that TLJ is a copy of ESB so I have no reason to think that TROS will be a rip off of ROTJ. Now saying that, I have noticed the parallels between the sequels and the OT, but I find them to be no more obvious or distracting than the prequel's many parallels. However, there are parts of TROS's teaser that do concern me.

    On my first watch, I really enjoyed the teaser and there was nothing made me think, "Damn, why is JJ trying to copy ROTJ". I know some people believe that the new desert planet is too derivative, but honestly, every Star Wars film has had a desert planet (except for ESB and TLJ). And most of the time that planet was literally Tatooine so that parallel doesn't bother me. Nothing about the teaser really did, until the Death Star reveal and the laugh...

    I am very, very worried about Palpatine. Worried that he will sideline Kylo, who should be the main villain at this point in the story. Worried that he will be the "final boss" for Rey which wouldn't make much thematic sense. And for the first time in the sequel trilogy, I'm worried that Kylo defeating Palpatine on the Death Star II in an effort to save Rey, will be incredibly derivative.
     
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  3. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    While this outcome is very plausible, I’m leaning toward it not happening because JJ knows the fans might expect it. When JJ said in Vanity Fair (I’m paraphrasing), “F**k it, I’m making the movie I want...”. That was a wink to the fans that this isn’t ROTJ 2.0.

    My hunch is Kylo/Rey team up at that point of the movie to take down Palpatine (in whatever form he’s in) as he’s maybe surrounded by The Knights of Ren or something?

    I think the redemption of Ben Solo won’t be as cut and dry as the final Vader moment. I still think he may ultimately die in the movie, but we may see good Ben for the final stretch of the movie.

    I guess what I’m saying is we only saw good Anakin right at the end with his son. Maybe we see good Ben (that has some interaction with his Mom via hologram) and it will be more tragic to see him die after that.

    I can’t wait to come back 6 months from now and read our own predictions and then see how off we are! Lol
     
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  4. Jedi MD

    Jedi MD Jedi Commander

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    No I don’t think it will be a copy of ROTJ. Just like TFA was not a copy of ANH. The leaks that are out there do not resemble ROTJ. Naturally with it being the third act of a trilogy there will be some similarities. But just because there are similarities does not make it the same. Besides, JJ is fully aware that the major complaint people had with TFA was that it was to much like ANH. When he was first named as the writer and director of IX he stated it would be different. His quotes in the Vanity Fair article just reinforces that.
     
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  5. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    No, I don't think TROS will be ROTJ 2.0. It actually can't be a copy of this movie. You can thank RJ for that.

    Ben Solo will be redeemed, yes. But it will happen quite differently. He will kill himself and then he gets resurrected. So he lives on. #Speculation

    If you follow the leaks, then you know the fight(s) will be the one thing which makes the movie unique compared to all the other movies.

    We don't know that.

    We don't know whether they are primitives or not.

    I could go on with your list... But all these things also go for ROTS btw. ROTS is then also a copy of ROTJ.
     
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  6. Solo

    Solo Rebel Official

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    It's like poetry...
     
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  7. greenbalrog

    greenbalrog Rebel Commander

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    If TROS ends up being very similar to ROTJ I'll be disappointed. My criticism of TFA was exactly that, that it felt too similar to ANH. I don't know the spoilers, or at least not the details, but you definitely start to see parallels, with Palpatine returning in some form, the possible redemption arc of Kylo Ren, the supposed less advanced species possibly helping the good guys (but the word here is "possibly" of course).

    I know it's tricky to strike a balance between old and new. However, Lucasfilm showed that they can do great fan service with Rogue One and Solo and still offer something that feels both fresh and Star Wars. The issue for me, where the line on the sand is, is when you start to create story parallels just with different characters. I did not feel that in Rogue One and Solo. Those were different stories. The same for TLJ to a great extent. However, TFA just had too many parallels for my taste, and that took me out of the movie and I still don't feel like re-watching TFA that much.

    So, I really hope we don't get too many story parallels with TROS, otherwise the ST may end up being a waste, at least for me.
     
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  8. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    Your last line kind of sums up how I'm feeling right now. I feel like we didn't get anything new introduced to the mythology of Star Wars. Sure we got some force connections and force doppelganger, but really what has changed? We are going to end up in the exact same place as in ROTJ but with different characters.

    Rey replaced Luke as the one to re-start the Jedi Order.
    Kylo replaces Vader as the evil operative that must turn good to help destroy...PALPATINE AGAIN.
    The First Order replaces the Empire and remnants will remain after the final battle.
    The galaxy will need a New New Republic to form a government.

    Help me out folks. What's the difference? We saw literally no character growth from Luke, Han or Leia. Actually, we saw them at their worst.

    Look I enjoy all of these films for the great moments they have. But as an overall story, the ST has been really boring and underwhelming. The stuff that could have been interesting, like Finn finding his family, Rey finding hers, Kylo falling for Rey, the larger galactic politics and effect on the people. None of that has been fleshed out and the back drop is the same circumstances as ROTJ.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jun 11, 2019, Original Post Date: Jun 11, 2019 ---
    I wish Lucas never said this. It's just an excuse for unoriginal story telling.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jun 11, 2019 ---
    The details may be different but the story is setup to be the same.
     
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  9. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    "History repeats itself."

    I may not be the biggest ST fan (at least I'm not a fan of TLJ), but I don't really see the story to be set up to be the same. In the OT there was no romantic relationship between hero and villain. In the OT there was no Stromtrooper who broke free from an evil regime. Yada, yada...

    If you mean with "set up" the redemption of Kylo Ren, then you may be right. But Star Wars was always about redemption.
     
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  10. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    The way that JJ setup TFA, there was no way that the ST was going to be original in any sense. You can move the puzzle pieces (Snoke dying in the 2nd movie while The Emperor died in the 3rd movie) or (Luke not wanting to train Rey where Yoda finally trained Luke), but the Trilogy still mirrors the OT with all of the points you mentioned above. I finally sort of gave up trying to tie the OT with the ST, so I sort of look at the ST like the Indiana Jones Movies. They are individual standalone movies but they are telling a story (just not a story that feels like it is all one narrative). I'm sure many feel differently, but that is what works for me.
     
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  11. Maximillian

    Maximillian Rebel General

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    I mean yeah, it is already quite a derivative arc. the whole of the sequel trillogy. I view it very much how I view John Williams music.

    his OT soudtrack borrowed heavily from other sourses (Holst most notibley but also Wagner and so on) but the arrangmeents were for the most part origional even though they owed a lot to previous older works. This matches up with Lucas and how he borrwed from Flash Gordon and Akira Kurosawa but re worked the ideas into something fresh.

    the PT was just George and John Williams going all in, without having to answer to anyone. jsut throwing everything and the kitchen sink into the mix, sometimes this worked (Duel of Fates) and othertimes not so much (The whole of Attack of the Clones) but the scope of both the PT and the music that John Williams did for it was massive.

    Now as for the ST I feel very strongly that John Williams is no longer trying to invent new musical phrases or movements but instead is producing variations on what he has already composed in the past for Star Wars. its like a subtle vibration on a theme, trying to go deeper into that already established theme.

    This I feel is the same with the ST. we get a fallen skywalker in a mask who is commited to the darkside but this time we see more details in him, get to see what makes him tick. Same with Old luke, he's like Yoda but we get to see more of his internal termoil, its variation on established motifs and themes. using the same archetypes to examine slightly different things this time around.

    I feel that it is both the weakness and the strength of the ST that they chose to go in this direction. However yes TFA has: Desert Orphan, Millinim falcon escape from destert planet, Fallen Jedi villain, An evil overlord, Han Solo in a canteena, A bit death laser base, heroes sneeking round said base, a mentors death infront of our new hero at the hands of the fallen jedi villain....a big space battle....and on and on. My only gripe with TFA is Starkiller base, I wish it had just been a base/castle on a snow planet, why was the giant lazer nessisary? Finns motiation to save his friend and Han's motivation to save his son should have been enough to carry the plot. I hate death star 2.0 its so lazy.

    And then TLJ Walker assault on a white planet with Rebels using rusty out of date ships not designed for combat. A mentor in hinding on a verdent world. A hold your hand out and 'Join me and we can rule the galaxy' moment. Yoda, literally. a cave of fears/tree of fears moment.

    So yeah so far both have had serious parrelells with the previous trilogy. I expect TROS to be no different. I just want it to feel organic and alive, not like a cookie cutter repeat. as long as it feels fresh I don't mind. but the short answer is yes, it will be ROTJ 2. with the same death star, emperor, skiff battles and so on.
     
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  12. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    I kinda doubt it. TLJ already hit a lot of ROTJ's beats.

    I understand your point, but I think when you start reducing story beats this much you can pretty much draw a constellation out of anything.

    Like, a major space battle in the end, and the First Order falling? Fighting against a technologically superior foe? The hero and villain fighting again?

    All applies to ROTJ and likely TROS, but I feel like that's too vague to be meaningful.
     
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  13. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    The biggest piece for me is that Rey needs to re-start the Jedi Order, Kylo being a Skywalker decendant that chose the dark side, and the First Order being Empire 2.0. It didn't have to be this way. There are literally endless ideas that could have continued "The Skywalker Saga" that would have felt fresh and new. Now we are ending with Good Jedi that sympathizes with Bad Skywalker vs Palpatine.

    AND WHERE ARE THE NEW SHIPS???? It looks like A-Wings, Y-Wings and X-Wings vs Ties AGAIN! Rogue One and Solo literally added more from an originality standpoint than the ST.
     
  14. Randy Butternubs

    Randy Butternubs Clone Commander

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    No. But people will find a way to call it that.
     
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  15. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    I think the way that Lucas ended ROTJ in 1983 (and than attached the PT story to it), it envitably restricted the story to a reboot. Let's face it (whether you like or dislike the PT), the story was really complete in that the arc was essentially Anakin was the Chosen One who destroyed the sith and balanced the Force, while Palpatine was the villain whose master plan played out over 6 movies, and it was the Skywalker Father/Son who eventually took it all down. I'm not a fan of the PT movies, but I like the PT/OT story it tells and I respect Lucas for how he was able to make it one narrative.

    That is why it is impossible for JJ to tie the 9 movies up, because the movies were already tied up after Episode 6. The ST is sort of just hitting the greatest hits of the previous movies while moving the chess pieces around, so 7,8,9 were never going to truly marry to the 1-6 story. Not to get off track here, but the only way we could have seen something truly new is if they developed 7,8,9 generations after ROTJ (and there were no OT characters). That would give them a freedom to tell a story that continues after ROTJ, but was something totally new and wasn't forced to tie together as one big story. There is nothing wrong with Disney continuing the story after Episode 6, I just think they wrote themselves in a box once they decided to continue the Skywalker Saga (Obviously it was for Box Office because Ford, Hamill and Fisher were better for box office than a new set of characters).
     
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  16. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    That doesn't bother me too badly.

    The Resistance is a scrappy little organization, it makes sense that they wouldn't have a ton of resources put into R&D for new stuff.

    And the Empire basically mastered industry, so the First Order would be wise to not try and reinvent the wheel there, too.

    Even in real life, stuff like this happens. The B-52 has been used in combat for over 60 years, and apparently the military is expecting it to be used up through the 2050s. 100 years!

    And it's not like there aren't any new ships. I like the mix, personally. It makes it feel like it happens in the same universe as the OT. In fact, that was sort of a problem I had with the PT, and is partly why I love the era between ROTS and ANH now, like in Tarkin, that help bridge that gap.
     
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  17. Messi

    Messi Force Sensitive

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    Judging by the teaser trailer: no.
     
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  18. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    I don’t care much about the cohesion of the story across all trilogies. I’m usually a person who deals with the film in front of them and worries little about what happened before or will happen after. I don’t contrast or compare either and I don’t mind a story echoing another or “feeling” too similar, if it has new, engaging characters. The opulence and in-world extravaganza found in the PT made SW too alienating for me. Lucas spent so much time making sure the world he was building in the PR was new and exotic, he forgot to develop the characters within it... All the spectacle was too distracting and I left TPM not knowing any of these people and not caring at all about them. The next two films resolved this issue only partially.


    With the ST my feeling have been very different. I loved TFA because the world felt familiar and the characters were compelling. I enjoyed TLJ because it developed the relationship of Kylo and Rey and had some beautifully crafted visuals. If I did not completely love TLJ, it’s because it was boring and irrelevant in parts, not because it had similar beats to ESB... So if TROS works as a film for itself, stays focused and follows the story of the new characters to a satisfying, logical conclusion, chances are I’ll be happy. I will probably not notice the parallels with ROTJ, if any, until I have seen TROS a couple of times, and they will most likely not bother me.
     
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  19. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    So Kylo turning back to Ben Solo and defeating Palpatine with Rey being poised to start a new Jedi order as the last Jedi wouldn't bother you as an ending? That's the logical conclusion, which is an identical conclusion to ROTJ. I'm praying for a satisfying plot twist, otherwise this may as well been a full on reboot.
     
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  20. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    That seems a good ending, yes. Do I care that it is similar to ROTJ? Not really. Kylo is a character miles away from Vader, his conflict and story has been very different. I feel intrigued by and invested in Kylo. I never gave a hoot about Vader. Rey is also a different character from Luke. I see Rey as a possible love interest, something I never felt with Luke. Also Rey doesn't have the baggage of family, so her involvement in the fight is the result of a sense of justice and not of family ties, which make her a more modern heroine.
     
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