SPECULATION "Your powers are weak old man"

I kind of like the idea of everyone wanting to find the legendary Luke Skywalker to have him defeat the First Order, but when they find him, he isn't all that powerful at all. He had become a legendary figure, but he doesn't actually have much power.

 

Luke is so powerful that he had to hide. When the New Jedi order was destroyed he had to stay away .

 

I don't know, after seeing people like Yoda, Palpatine, and Count Dookie do all kinds of tricks in the prequels, some people may feel cheated if the movie revealed that Luke isn't really powerful.

I've always had the assumption that Obi-wan and Yoda were holding back their strength during the OT so that Luke can realize and act upon his destiny and rebuild the Jedi Order.

 

I disagree on this. Obi Wan was extremely powerful, it was only Darth Vader's perspective that he was "weak" because he was old. He was ribbing Ben. Obi Wan wasn't lying about being more powerful than Vader could have possibly imagined -- his powers had increased with age since he was able to return from the dead, not decreased with age.

 

[QUOTE="LexPrime, post: 186723, member: 4833" Count Dookie [/QUOTE]

The name is Dooku get it right.

 

The name is Dooku get it right?


Dooku, you were awesome....

One of the best parts of the PT

 

I think Vader was just saying that Obi-Wan is an old man who is weak, not that Obi-Wan is weak because he's an old man. Crude matter ages, the ability to use The Force doesn't.

 

I agree that physically they are not what they used to be.

I just thought that the ability to use the force had more to do with knowledge than physical ability. I mean Yoda used the force to augment his own physical abilities and we saw him doing all sorts of flips before reverting back to walking with a cane.

Yoda was physically deteriorating, yet his knowledge of the force stayed the way it was.

My apologies, I'll never mess up your name again Count Doodoo

 

Don't mess with the wizened elderly from this old folks home - age may sap strength and stamina but these "old fossils" still got the power!
(Though Obi-Wan was probably not up to defeating Vader or the Emperor - even in his prime methinks.)

 

Yoda was able to lift Luke's ship out of the swamp in TESB. His powers hadn't waned with age. Obi Wan going over to the force was part of the plan.

Anyway, in terms of Yoda's species, his age in the OT wasn't that different to his age in the PT. What's 20 years when you live to 900? He was leaping around the senate fighting Sidious in RotS.

 

Luke will be kind, gentile, and wise. Why? He has first person knowledge of the afterlife. Few, if any, have this. Han can only say, " Well Luke says he saw Ben and I believe Luke". But Luke knows for sure. This will make him very focused on "what comes next" and while he knows he can do things in the current life to help others, he knows that he cannot go too far, to hate those that do wrong around him. He will be very, very strong, but forgiving and care more about helping others understand, than kicking ass. Why ? Because he doesnt think he knows, he knows he knows.

 

I think that would be a cop out because of the last 35 - 40 years .

 

Luke is not that old at the time of the ST. He'll be around 55. Granted, not all 50 somethings are created equal, but I know plenty of people who still do some pretty impressive physical things at that age.

Heck JJ is currently 49. Does he look like a frail old man?

 

Though I like the original thought in the OP, and from a certain point fo view that may well be the case, I'm inclined to go the route that the real power is the knowledge of the Force. Kenobi's physical body wasn't what it used to be, but his actual power was internal at this point, not external. Abstract power, not material power. I have to consider the things shown in the movies, and though Yoda was old in the PT, in AotC and RotS we see Yoda can still channel the Force into total bad-ass mode if he wants. Though you can see that once he turns it off, it has had an effect on his material body; he sighs and walks a bit rougher, like after a heavy work-out. Also, Yoda is no different here than any old Kung Fu master throughout Kung Fu history who is old and feeble, but can open a can when it has to be done. Then everyone is like "look at the old sensai kickin' ass!"

But I honestly think we're seeing Vader and Kenobi not really even trying; it's like they don't really want to go through with this fight. Vader is the next two movies is much more formidable. I think Vader and Kenobi really didn't want to fight each other again, and it was all just "kid gloves" until the time came for Kenobi to do his thing- because we see Kenobi is just dancing around until he sees Luke is watching: then, he lift his saber and does the disappearing act leaving Vader confused at what just happened.

I don't think we'll see such outstanding Jedi combat like in the days of the Republic when these guys were continually in training from youth. We'll see some "heavy" saber fights, but not "swift". I would wager Luke's power is really great, but it's not in the "LET'S GET FIGHT!" way- but in the power of clarity of thought, connection to the Force, possibley great healing abilities and such. But if he fights with a saber (I'm not sure he will) it will be heavy and powerful use of the saber and not the easy and continuous flips and spins of the Jedi at the height of the Jedi order.

 

I think that line form Vader only demonstrates his own arrogance and self-confidence. Kenobi knew from the start that his trip was a one way ticket. The timing is all that mattered.

I think Luke is a special case because he has, what seemingly no other force user has ever had, in deity versions of great Jedi masters to continue to counsel him. It's like having a bunch of extra super wise Force brains wired into his consciousness. Not to mention, he is the seed of the chosen one so his potential ceiling is likely higher than anyone not named Anakin. I agree that the body aging does factor into physical power in combat but I tend to think that Luke's handle on the Force will be second to none given his unique circumstance.

 

The way I see it is that Obi-Wan Jedi Master was Obi-Wan in his prime. Older Obi-Wan was relatively weaker compared to his prime, but so was Vader.
I think both Anakin and Luke were more powerful than Obi-Wan.
Jedi Knight Anakin and Jedi Knight Luke > Jedi Knight Obi-Wan.
I know that people believe that Vader was uber powerful in the suit, but I believe he was RELATIVELY powerful. Similar level to older Obi-Wan, below Jedi Knight Luke and above newbie level Luke.
Jedi Knight Anakin was more powerful than Jedi Master Obi-Wan and had he avoided turning to the darkside, he would become the most powerful of all existing Jedis at their current level. The reason Anakin lost to Obi-Wan is because the gap between them was small and similar to the gap between Anakin and Dooku. This is how Anakin beat Dooku.

older Dooku
Jedi Knight Anakin
Jedi Master Obi-Wan

Here you can see Obi-Wan is 2 levels below Dooku. Anakin can lose to Obi-Wan and beat Dooku because he is sandwiched between them.

Above this you have Yoda (older). This is why Dooku was able to fight Yoda. Above older Yoda is Windu and Sidious, both in their prime. Master Yoda was above both, but older Yoda is brought down to their level. Older Yoda could not defeat Sidious but Master Yoda would have kicked his ass

(Master Anakin)
Master Yoda
Master Windu and Sidious
older Yoda
older Dooku
Jedi Knight Anakin
Master Obi-Wan
Vader
older Ob-Wan

You can see where Jedi Knight Luke, Master Luke and older Luke would be in this too.
Older Luke should be around older Yoda level. If Snoke is above that level, maybe he isn't powerful enough by himself.

Now how powerful will Rey be? This is most interesting because if she is a Skywalker, she has potential to be as powerful as Luke and Anakin. If she is Rey Random, she could be destined to be MORE powerful than both, if they make it so she was chosen by the force itself.

She already knows how to fight without Jedi training. She is far above farmboy Luke. When she uses the Force she is far above newbie Luke. Once Luke starts to train her she will be Jedi Knight level.
What level will she be when she is at Jedi Master level?

Also what is Kylo's level? Knight Anakin/Luke? Vader? Lower? He's not a master, he's an apprentice and a badass relative to those round him, but not compared to Snoke.