SPECULATION Episode II and III are depressing movies.

+1.

I definitely think Ep. 2 had some cool and imaginative set pieces. The Coruscant speeder chase, the Obi Wan / Jango fight, and the Clone gunship scenes were all fun to watch in their own ways.

 

I absolutely agree with you on those scenes as well the battle scene in ep 2 in the coliseum type area was my favourite battle. So cool.

 

Agreed. In fact, I've always kind of felt like Episode 2 was a bunch of really awesome set piece and planet ideas George had, but he lacked a truly cohesive (IMHO) plot to make a whole movie out of them, so it wound up being a bunch of really cool scenes and places loosely tied together with a plot. "Umm....Anakin and Padme need to get married and have twins, and a Clone army needs to be created. DONE!" And maybe the details of the plot went by the wayside in the process. It definitely lacked a clear direction like 1 and 3 had.

But it's got enough cool stuff in it that I still really enjoy it when I watch it.

 

I had no problem in following the plot for "Attack of the Clones". And I'm still surprised that some fans did. Very surprised.

 

It's not that it's hard to follow, it's just that some of it seems to come from nowhere. For example, there's an unknown planet where a Jedi just happened to authorize the creation of a Clone army without the Council's knowledge, and the Kaminoans just go ahead and make the army? And the Jedi, in turn, just accept that this army has been made and proceed to use it? I just feel like more explaining could be done. And please, if you have an explanation, lemme know! I'd love to hear it.

As I said, I do enjoy the movie, and on the whole I enjoy the prequels. So I'm not trying to give the old "they're terrible movies" comment that gets overused. I have criticisms and praises for all the Star Wars films, regardless of era. No movie is all bad and no movie is all wonderful, but they're all Star Wars and they're all worthwhile.

 

That and everything that the Jedi learn is due to ineptitude and luck.
Let's look at what needs to transpire:
1) First assassination attempt on Padmé's life fails:
Okay, I'm fine with this one. I wouldn't be surprised if Palpatine manipulated enough behind the scenes to make sure that the decoy would be killed and Padmé would survive.
2) Second assassination attempt ends with Zam Wesell being captured and Jango killing her with a Kamino Saber Dart.
The is the first of many steps that require the henchman in question to fail at their job. And unlike with the stormtroopers and their bad aim, we hear dialogue that eliminates the possibility of them being ordered to make it look good.
Also, if Jango kiled Zam with a blaster or with a poison dart made ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE GALAXY, Kamino wouldn't have been discovered. Well, that and...
3) Obi-Wan happens to have a friend who knows about Kamino and can immediately recognize a Kamino Saber Dart.
Palpatine may be a well connected guy, but this is not something he could have accounted for. And it makes the question of deleted Kamino for the archives even more baffling.
4) Jango fails at killing Obi-Wan on Kamino.
Yeah, if Jango had killed him, the rest of this plot wouldn't have happened.
5) Jango doesn't think that there's a possibility his ship might have a tracker on it and lead Obi-Wan straight to Geonosis.
Even if he thought Obi-Wan did die eariler, there's a possibility his ship could be be tracked.
6) Jango fails at killing Obi-Wan above Geonosis.
Seriously, if he had killed Obi-Wan, which is clearly his intent, the rest of the plot wouldn't happen.

Plus there's the fact that the army itself seems suspicious as hell and you get a terrible, terrible plot.

 

Many good points you have made. But how is the army suspicious even if they were clones of Jango.

 

Well, I don't want to speak for Vader_the_White, but I can think of some reasons...

1. Their host was a Bounty Hunter who tried to kill a trusted senator, and the Jedi would surely figure this out in due course...
2. Apart from that, the Jedi know nothing about the host, meaning he could be someone of entirely questionable character, physical capacity, etc... Is that a great template for an army?
3. The clones were created without the knowledge of the Jedi, meaning all kinds of tampering could happen that might hinder their loyalty or effectiveness.

And going back to my above point... I just can't imagine that the Jedi would say, "Cool, we have an army!" and proceed to use it just like that. Granted, Yoda did say he'd go to Kamino to investigate, and he did, but he didn't feel the need to discuss the matter with the whole Jedi Council to get input?

They could have even improved this whole scenario a bit by showing the Jedi recognizing their lapse of judgement following Order 66, but they don't do that! Obi Wan literally says, "My Clone troops turned on me, I need help," and the Jedi proceed to do what they can to survive. But wouldn't Order 66 cause them to look back over the events of the last film and say, "Gee, we should have seen something bad coming"?

 

I am sure that in The Clone Wars tv series the clones, were expanded upon by having different personalities in order to make them unique people and the only reason that the clones attacked the Jedi was because they were following orders given by Palpatine. But I of course understand the reasons why they wouldn't be trusted.

 

I see what you're saying about the incredible coincidences/unlikely events that were required for the Jedi to find the clones - but there is no proof that Palpatine planned any of that. Maybe he just intended to keep the clones secret a little longer, since he was already manipulating the Senate into authorizing an army, and then when they authorized one, he could just say, "Well, I just happen to be smart enough to have an army ready..."

And the Kaminoans proceeded with production because they believed it was authorized by the Jedi Council - Palpatine ordered them using the identity of a deceased Jedi Master named Sifo Diyas. Anyway, cloning is their business, so as long as they get paid, I'm not sure they really care who ordered them.

I also agree that it is sort of surprising the Jedi would accept the help of the clones so readily - but Palpatine literally forced them to, by holding them at blasterpoint.

 

Here's a list of reasons why the clones were highly suspect:

1) Created by a Jedi who died around the time of their creation.
2) Said time of creation was right around the time the Sith reappeared.
3) The first batch just happens to be ready around the time a major galactic conflict is brewing.

And that's without taking Jango into consideration:
1) Tried to kill the leading senator in the anti-war movement.
2) Has confirmed ties to the Separatist movement.
3) Has confirmed ties to Count Dooku, which causes even more evidence against the clones considering:
A) Dooku left the order around the same time as the creation of the army, the death of Sifo-Dyas, and the presumed death of Darth Maul.
B) Could've been the Jedi who deleted Kamino from the Jedi Archives.
C) Is the major (public) instigator of the war.
D) Is revealed to be a Sith Lord during the duel on Geonosis.

See why it is rather suspect? These reasons combined with how the army just falls into their laps just raises too many questions.

Good points as well.

No, Sifo-Dyas did actually place the order, in both the current continuity as well as Legends. The Sith just killed him and hijacked the army for their purposes.

FUN FACT: Originally, the Jedi was supposed to be named "Sido-Dyas", with Mace saying that no Jedi by that name ever existed. Lucas once mistyped it as "Sifo-Dyas", liked it better, and changed it.
Honestly, thank goodness for that typo since that would have been stupid and even more suspect. And would have hurt Palpatine's character for being so obvious.
Though I do get to use this to show how unsubtle Lucas is when I need to prove that.

 

All I can really say that each clone had their own personalities, therefore make own decisions. But in the case of order 66 a large amount of the clones were following orders except a small number didn't follow the order. For example Rex.
Also about batch being ready all I can say is so the plot can move on.

 

well it was dooku who POSED as sifo-diyas and ordered the clone army after he turned and i wouldn't be shocked if he is the one to erase kamino from the maps...also palpation using his force abilities to help him be ready
..

 

True. Maybe Palpatine forced them in a subtle way to take the clones but, they should've seen that coming.

 

It wasn't up to them to create clones or not as it was a legal issue with the republic's senate and all they could do was to be asked to lead the troops as they didn't exactly have a standing army before and they needed generals
FAST.

 

What does them being individuals have to do with ANY of my points. Especially since they couldn't disobey Order 66 as long as they had their inhibitor chips (Rex managed to have his removed before then, I don't know if Wolffe and Gregor had theirs removed before or after).
Also, a clone army just happens to be ready for the Republic right when it needs it? That's suspicious as the timing makes it seem like it was planned ahead of time (because it was since Palpatine wasn't going to start a war without the army one side needs to fight it, especially when said army will eventually be the secret weapon against the Jedi).

See, this is why I look things up before I post. Sifo-Dyas, then a member of the Jedi Council, foresaw the upcoming conflict and said that the Republic needed an army. Yoda and the others disagreed and kicked him off the Council before the events of The Phantom Menace. Sifo-Dyas decided to go through with his idea in secret, contacting the Kaminoans (he even was the one who came up with the inhibitor chips, though it was for an actual failsafe, not for wiping out the Jedi). It wasn't until after this that Dooku (now Darth Tyranus) arranged for him to be killed. Then he took over the Clone Army project, funding it and arranging for certain modifications (i.e., Order 66).

 

This is an amazing post. It didn't don on me that someone would like Star Wars so much after an apparently random ("One day I saw ANH") introduction to the OT. That's so neat. I think really that shows how much staying power it has.

I also want to chime in on what FN-32whatever (alright, alright, it's @FN-3263827 ) said about most Star Wars fans not liking the PT from the beginning because I think that's about right. I don't think it's a "vocal minority" or some such of prequel haters. They just weren't that good. I mean, I tried to like the Phantom Menace, I sorta did like it, but mostly or entirely because.. Star Wars was back. But it was a pretty big disappointment from the beginning. And among my friends that was basically the most optimistic view that any of us had. Some of my friends really didn't like it.

It's funny because I started posting about the prequels somewhere else on the Cantina recently (come to think of it, it was the "Has the force awakens lost it's luster" or some such thread) and I really think they aren't that far off from being really good movies. The overall story arc of Palpatine seizing control of the Galaxy aka how the Republic turned into an Empire was good. So I actually think the story is there. It's more the execution of it that's the problem, specifically Anakin and Padme. Fixing Anakin and Padme would go a long way towards fixing the prequels. As they are, I've only been able to watch each prequel like 2-3 times and I just don't desire to watch them more than that.

 

Well forgive me for remembering something wrong

 

I apologise I wrote this while I was half asleep. After rereading your points I cannot think of any possible reasons. Congrats you stumped me.

 

Thanks! I recall making the commitment to watch the OT before TFA was released even since it was announced Episode VII would be made! And yes, I would have funny looks whenever I confessed I hadn't seen the original movies.

Agree. Actually the story is quite interesting on how the Jedi and the Old Republic fell into the hands of the Sith; quite a deceitful scheme, since we can see that there were people in the Empire who actually believed it would bring peace and order to the galaxy, without knowing the Sith were controlling the galaxy.

Even Anakin and Padme love theme is a good example of what you are mentioning. "Across The Stars" is such a brilliant composition, it carries a lot of feeling of the doomed love between a Jedi knight and a Senator that unfortunately is not reflected by the characters onscreen. Some might say it is even better than "Han Solo and The Princess" and maybe they might be right; but even if that is the case the latter has more collective emotional weight with the fans since the characters involved - the Smuggler and the Rebel Princess - actually carry a lot of emotion in their scenes together, even if they dwell into their bantering.