SPECULATION Episode II and III are depressing movies.

Lol just saw this about Natalie Portman not showing her son the prequels yet:

 

I agree actually. After watching The Clone Wars, the rogueish, dashing, cocky side of Anakin becomes much more apparent. By the time I reached the end of TCW I really grew to like Anakin. Is he still flawed? Sure, but that's as it should be. Seeing his heroic, caring side really helps shine a spotlight on how tragic his turn as Darth Vader really was. If only the Anakin in the movies was half as likeable as the Anakin from TCW, people would look at the PT very differently I think.

 

Ep2 and Ep3 Anakin are effectively different characters - saying something like "Anakin was x in the movies" makes the opinion/verdict inherently unreliable.

Heroic with darker traits is exactly what he was in ROTS - if CW made him even moar likeable, I guess that's not a bad thing, all things considered.

What bad dialogue for instance?

This is basically a purist argument, not so much critique.

The main plot of the movie is tacked onto the movie?

Some scenes towards the end probably should've been longer.

None of the reasons you've named amount to a "bad movie" verdict, or even come close - one of them doesn't even make sense, the other is purism, one is a minor, arguable criticism.

 

This is how I see it, the prequels are indeed depressing. Imagine you frequented a bar, it's in a beautiful old building, a bit shabby but very tastefully decked out in a timeless style. The beer's great and everybody that's there is likeable, intelligent, fun and or roguish. You love hanging out in this place with these guys, you want to be like some of them, even the bad ones who give you a hard time are undeniably cool and you sometimes wish you could join them.

Then, for whatever reason, you're away for a time and when you return it's the same building but it's been given the gaudiest of makeovers, it's the same owner but now he dilutes the drinks and with the odd exception, the bar is now full of pretentious, boring, childish and annoying douchebags that you'd walk a mile to avoid. There's only one thing for it, you stop going to that place and arrange a reunion with the old regulars in some other bar that recaptures the feel of the first place.

 

A lot of people like their elevated characters "pretentious" - if they didn't, no one would write them

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 27, 2016, Original Post Date: Aug 27, 2016 ---

The first three are frequent occurrences, but overall take up the minority of the running time.

The pacing is only a problem in some segments of AOTC.

The only problem about the pahlitics is the lacking exposition - other than that they're not "problem" at all.

 

Well, given that you've written the pretentious and that there aren't any in the Prequels, here are some elevated characters for you - YAWN, WHAT A CROCK OF blast.

 

This sentences makes no sense.

 

This was the most positive AotC review that I can remember:

Published at: March 17, 2002, 10:49 p.m. CST by headgeek

I saw Star Wars Episode Two: Attack of the Clones hours ago. The ‘how’ of that will be a thing of mystery buried in a passed piece of paper from my book signing with a hotel, a room number and a time listed upon it. You don’t want to know about that room or the person(s) in that room, you want to know about Episode Two.
Jar Jar Binks. Jar Jar has a 15 second StepInFetchIt shuffle speak routine he does as he goes to first let Obi Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker into the Amidala’s quarters that is so offensively awful, that it will not only make you recoil in horror, but it will remind you of all of the worst aspects of his character from THE PHANTOM MENACE. I wanted to burn the film, destroy, maim and murder it at this stage. I was steeling myself from the impending incompetence, the horror of my childhood being molested. I was prepared to have a very bad time.

I found myself not liking Anakin Skywalker at all, he’s a punk spoiled brat… A snotty nosed ego trip, that angry evil high school football quarterback that wants the head cheerleader. He whines like a Mark Hamill squealing about going to Toshi Station to get some power converters. There is much anger in him. He’s impulsive, conflicted, out of control and a mass murderer. Everytime I saw him and Natalie Portman together, I wanted to tell her to run, fly you fool. But am I not supposed to feel that way?

So did George Lucas drop the ball? Did he rape our childhood? Has he turned into nothing more than flannel wearing toy salesman without a soul or an eye for storytelling anymore? Was I disappointed to such a state that I wanted to yell and scream and break my original 12 inch Boba Fett and defecate upon it in a ritualistic purging of all that was once sacred to my childhood?
To answer all of those questions…. THANK GOD NO!!!

Lucas succeeds with the film beyond my wildest dreams.

I was scared and thrilled to be watching Episode 2. The entire time I was in that hotel room, I was convinced that agents of Lucasfilm were going to knock down the doors and I knew I was being set up for a fall. I mean, it isn’t possible to see STAR WARS early. I know that, but there I was watching it. Listening to the sounds of drunk SXSW revelers falling into the door outside.

After about 20 minutes of that awareness everything but the film ceased to exist. The lights in the room dimmed in my mind. The person(s) in the room shrank like Scott Carey into the microverse. Everything about me was concentrating upon the film. The movie was not complete. There were moments where the effects were quite rough, but the work that was finished, was beyond reproach.

How do I explain the success of ATTACK OF THE CLONES? First, I must say that this film makes THE PHANTOM MENACE a better film. In fact, I would have to say that not only does it do that, but suddenly you will realize with horror, exactly why Jar Jar Binks is in the series at all. Upon first viewing, in less than ideal circumstances, I must say that I feel that this is by far the most entertaining Star Wars film to date. It may not have that innocent sense of wonder for the first film. It doesn’t have that sense of intimacy that EMPIRE STRIKES BACK had, or that film’s desperation. However, it also doesn’t have the trivial frivolity of JEDI or MENACE. ATTACK OF THE CLONES is a turning point in the saga. The point of no return.

I love this film desperately. I want to continually watch it for about a week with my best friends. I want to see it digitally projected with sternum shaking sound. I want to watch as friends discover the twists that Palpatine/Sidious/Dooku have in store for us. I want to have the conversations about what this all means, the speculative conversations about how these elements will play out in the final chapter of the prequels.

What is great about the film?

Obi Wan Kenobi / Ewan McGregor. He just owns the role now. There is a moment in the Cantina/Sports Bar on the surface level of Coruscant, where he and Anakin have chased an assassin. As they enter this packed sci-yuppie-scum club, they realize they can’t seem to be able to see ‘the assassin’ anymore. Anakin wants to rush in, tear the place apart looking for the suspect. Obi Wan tells him to slow down or something then turns to head in a different direction, Anakin asks him, "Where you going?" to which Kenobi dryly responds, "To get something to drink." Kenobi is just that calm about things. He is the king of cool. He’ll get his suspect, but he’s going to get a drink first. Priorities. I was reminded of him telling Luke to let go and to trust his feelings. He doesn’t repeat that here, he simply lets go and trusts his feelings. We see it as an action, a path he chose. Then when he gets to that bar, leaning on it, sipping that odd drink, a drug dealer comes up to him and asks, "Wanna buy some deathsticks?" Obi Wan responds, "You don’t want to sell me death sticks." Drug dealer says, "I don’t want to sell you death sticks." "You want to go home and rethink your direction in life," Kenobi continues. "I want to go home and rethink my direction in life," the dealer says as he blankly turns and walks out of the club. Before he can get too smug about his little trick he senses the assassin behind him and he pulls the patented Obi Wan pivoting light saber at a bar strike that you’ve seen in the trailer. He gets his suspect and he’s never broke a sweat. He is the master. Kenobi is just plainly cool in the film. Watch how he handles things on Camino or the way he doesn’t betray a single thought in his conversation with Jango Fett there. He knows his game, his methods and his ways. He is confident and completely on the clock. Ewan is relaxed in the role, clearly having fun and is very very very good in the film. Contrary to Moriarty’s assertion that he would be more ‘Han Solo’ he is in fact much more Master Li Mu Bai (Chow Yun Fat from CROUCHING TIGER HIDDEN DRAGON) but without the romance.

Jango Fett – Boba Fett / Temuera Morrison – Daniel Logan -- I love this pair. I love them because they are the renegade Father and Son. They have their own set of rules, they are a self contained functioning unit. Jango wanted a son to raise his own way, that doesn’t mean he beats him and does evil things. He loves his kid. He’s training him to be a good Bounty Hunter like he is. There is very much a father/son – Master/Apprentice style thing going on here. And they have my favorite moment of the entire film, which is a tiny little moment between these two. Jango and Boba are headed to Genosia when they pick up that Kenobi is tailing them. They dive into the asteroid belt surrounding Genosia, Obi Wan trails behind them, not being lost. Jango tells Boba something like, "Prepare the sonic mines, we’ll give him…" something, I couldn’t make out… but Boba presses some buttons while doing what I can only describe as an evil giggle… a delighted giggle. Jango looks at him smiling, as if to say… "That’s my boy!" The moment is so honest and real. I’ve never seen a father – son moment like this in science fiction. Completely classic.

Anakin Skywalker - Padme Amidala / Hayden Christensen – Natalie Portman -- First Anakin is just an ass in this film. Like I said earlier, I can’t stand him. He’s like that boy in the TWILIGHT ZONE movie that has too much power and thinks about using it too much, but sometimes it goes terribly astray. Portman’s Padme in this film has mostly dropped the ‘high speak’ that she had from the first film…. Injecting into her character far more vocal variety than the droll monotone of the first film that killed the performance. Here she infuses the character with more of herself, which is a very good thing. I like that she doesn’t want to have anything to do with Anakin. That she constantly is aware of all the reasons they shouldn’t be together. Of the scandal. Of their careers. Anakin hates being told no. She can see all the reasons, but when they go through what they go through… When the emotional binding takes place between these characters through a brief adventure, a loss of a loved one, a decent into hell… When faced with certain doom, they realize that life is too short to worry about the ifs and buts… And when it happens… John Williams’ love theme kicks in. This really kicks in just as Anakin and Padme kiss before being taken out and strung up in the arena (you know the sequence when they are chained against the pillars.) It actually starts from the shot (which we see in the trailer - of the arena with all the Geonosis creatures seated and cheering - the long shot looking from high to low). It consists of maybe three instruments playing at first, classic violin, very sorrowful and warm. It almost sounds a little bit like the theme for the Incredible Hulk TV series with Lou Ferrigno. The intros are similar before other instruments join in. It also reminded me of Francis Lai’s theme from Arthur Hiller’s LOVE STORY. Although it is strikingly different from other parts in the film, IT FITS IN BEAUTIFULLY. Elegant but not soppy. Gentle but not melodramatic. Williams thinking differently (after all, a very different relationship from Han and Leia!) and succeeding. It starts to crescendo as the lovers are wheeled out into the arena (reminded me of the shot of Luke with the twin suns) - same type of crescendo. It continues through the cuts between Obi-Wan chained and them being taken over to the same place but changes into a military drum style (you know, the thumping dictatorship heavy beat - almost like the 'sacrifice has arrived'). This changes the whole tone as we realize their 'moment' has been intruded and they are in serious poodoo. The romance is handled in terms of familiarity and proximity. This is that sort of romance where one loves the other, but only at the point of an emotional precipice where the other could see that they shared that feeling and embrace it. I liked this.

Palpatine-Sidious – Count Dooku-Darth Tyrannus / Ian McDiarmid – Christopher Lee -- Wow. Ok, read no spoilers about all of this. I remember thinking that Lucas could be soft in the head for trying to fool the audience into thinking Palpatine isn’t Sidious. I mean we can see that in the credits. What the hell? Right? See that is so like a self-centered audience. To sit there and think they are the center of the universe. The Palpatine-Sidious thing from the first film… The trade dispute… All of it not only makes sense with this film, but the way it unfolds. As you see the point of the various guises and names… How Yoda and Windu sense no ‘disturbance’ around Palpatine… There are reasons for these things… Just because you don’t know them yet, doesn’t mean Lucas doesn’t know what he’s doing… Upon seeing this film, seeing how he handles these two characters being 4 characters… It is genius. Compelling Machiavellian positioning and deception. There are points in this film where I wanted to scream at the screen and say, "Palpatine is an evil Sith Lord! They’re conspiring to destroy the Republic from within!" That’s when Christopher Lee essentially tells Obi Wan the same thing… My god. The evil. The evil of using the truth, knowing it could only be interpreted as being a deception and a lie. The Devil uses truth to betray mankind, because he is expected to lie… and the truth sounds better, but will never be believed. Just wait till you see how the Death Star plays into this… You’ll friggin die! FANTASTIC.


Yoda-Dooku fight… HOLY GOD! Right now there is a lot of speculation about Yoda with lightning. It is on one of the soundtrack covers. When you look at that. When people described the ball of lightning in Yoda’s hands from ShoWest, I thought they were insane. I thought only the bad guys did that. When I saw the film, well… I can tell you exactly how that moment plays out. So far as I have seen that hasn’t leaked and it isn’t a huge spoiler. When Yoda and Dooku first set up to go at it, Dooku hurls lightning at Yoda… Yes, Chris Lee’s character is that strong. Perhaps the strongest character with the force I have ever seen in Star Wars history. He attacks Yoda with lightning, Yoda captures it, twirls it around, balls it up and redirects it back at Lee. When I saw this, I screamed like a little girl. I mean it was like Uncle Tony grabbed my pantied ass. I jumped about 12 feet up in the air and squealed. WHAT A THRILL! The Yoda – Dooku fight is astonishing. I can not emphasize that enough. I have been thinking for quite some time that there was no way on earth that Yoda with a light saber could look cool. Folks, not only does it look cool, but there will be a collective scream of HOLY blast when what happens happens. Yoda’s fighting style is… well let’s just say he could kick all your asses. Oh and by the way, Williams’ DUEL OF THE FATES was nothing in comparison to this. Remember Vader vs Luke in EMPIRE… How overwhelmingly powerful Vader felt in comparison to Luke. Remember how weak Vader felt in comparison to the Emperor? Now imagine someone with The emperor’s powers in a full on battle with a master. Here towers of metal are torn asunder with the power of the force. The ceiling ripped apart. Seemingly unlimited strength with the force. You will quiver, shake and scream. You are warned.
You have to understand something in going into this film. What you have seen in Star Wars movies before were skirmishes… incidents… Remember, The Battle of Hoth was small, a minor hiccup. In ATTACK OF THE CLONES, you have the first REAL Star War. It isn’t a space battle, but you understand the scale of things. The size and scope of a MAJOR OFFENSIVE. And unlike in PHANTOM MENACE, where Lucas decided to cut up the action by trying to intercut three consecutive arenas of battle, here he portrays the action linearly… basically following Obi Wan and Anakin and Padme… who all basically stick together, with Padme taking a roll in some sand to miss out on the Dooku battle.


After the film was finished playing I was just beside myself with glee.


Right now it is a very interesting time for Star Wars fandom. PHANTOM MENACE polarized the audience into the faithful and those that felt it had all gone wrong. That everything was doomed. With the introduction of MATRIX and LORD OF THE RINGS into fan circles, there began to be a real angry mix. Fights, screamings and hurling of ‘love it or leave it’ style rhetoric.


Watching the trailers for STAR WARS: ATTACK OF THE CLONES in theaters, the audiences seemed muted in comparison to the delightful screams of approval from the SPIDER-MAN trailers.


You know those guys that have been camping up in Seattle? The experience they are going to have in the theater upon that first showing… They will be so completely happy.


Now the cut I saw was still a bit rough around the edges, but folks… I can’t wait to see this on the big screen complete. To see what gets cut, what gets changed, what I notice when watching this movie the way Lucas meant for people to see it.
The source(s) that showed it to me were tired of all my LORD OF THE RINGS stuff. They were tired of all the rhetoric about Tolkien, all the focus I had on LORD OF THE RINGS. They wanted someone outside of the ranch, outside of the ‘circle’, someone that seemed to be straying from the fold to see what it was that Lucas had done. What Lucas has done, is to make a film that is so relentlessly entertaining and thrilling, that there will be no movie this summer that can stand against it. This is it.
This movie is the real deal. It is smart, beautiful (god digital photography is the glory and the future of the world of film, the palette is strikingly dramatically colorful), thrilling and electrical. Essentially it is a pure action adventure science fiction fantasy with a touch of romance. Line up now. This Star Wars is for real.

 

Ohh, the poor village with the grunting orc muggers - seriously, who cares. While he's ranting and crying about that she's probably like "well I don't care about those guys, I see he's all emotional about that though".

"Especially" - if that's your main reason, I'm not sure how much you've really got.

The correct version of this is that the movie's inconsistent about what it's showing - in some moments/scene a Padme who's got a positive attitude towards him in a platonic sense but is kind of turned off by his advances; in others, one who's totally all over this hot guy, so she doesn't even "fall in love" as such, it's kind of there from the beginning.

Thu'v got to analyze things properly

Ayy lmao don't you understand the first thing about:
-stylization in movies in literature
-being brought up in some high society where courtship is ritualized and people kind of DO act that way

That's a bad argument - saying stuff about bad execution is valid, but "we normal people don't talk like that"? Lol no.

Well you also didn't slaughter tuskens.

Not on her part, interestingly enough.

Half of them, pretty much.

Cmahn it was longer than that.

That's literally ALL he did? If that were the case, that romance would've been actually tonally consistent and hence better

Out of the many awkward moments, that one wasn't one lmao

Ah, no they don't?

Well there's always a bigger one, and it seems like I've got a better critical grip on this than you

 

ROTS is the only prequel i will watch, the other 2 are horrendous. And Darth Maul should of survived one more movie, even though he's back on the cartoon side of things...

 

Well, she wasnt as bad as Christensen, but she was very blank. Although its hard to blame any of the actors the the PT to be honest.
I think Natalie Portman herself summarized the experience of the PT's production there very well:

Was it really? It was certainly at least 2 days. But wasnt much longer than a week. Correct me if im wrong.

It was mostly what was shown on screen. When she was packing her bags certainly, when they were eating on the ship also, on Tatooine also etc.

Well this is pretty much subjective, but I havent seen a movie either from Jackson nor from Portman with that blank on screen facial expression.
Although Natalie Portman was nominated for multiple razzies for the PT, so thats not really good sign to begin with...

 

Okay, in what scenes is either having a blank face expression?

Well, it felt like at least a couple weeks didn't it - what this is really is, is "genre movie time progression", it's measured more in how long the stay at a given location, or the trip soewhere feels like, rather than concrete time measurements; and with those absent, you kinda conclude how long it must've been for it to feel as long as it did.

I mean, how long were they at Jabba's? Could've been 1 day, could've been a month, but somehow 1-2 days doesn't fit does it.


In this case, they looked rather chill, going through fields and restaurants, it felt like a "stay at Naboo" rather than them rushing from picnic to picnic.

Nope - just the first one on the list

Eating on the ship? There were no complaints there, incl. about the "job" - Tattoine wasn't whining about the "job", the content was a lot more dramatic there obviously.

I mean, if your "job" is to cheat death, and you didn't manage to cheat the death of your sister or whatever, then yelling how it's your "boss"' fault he hadn't taught you how to make people immortal yet, can't really be called coplaining about your job, can it

 

All of her scenes in TPM, especially when she was talking about her queen stuff. I could link you some screenshots, but aint nobody got time for that.

Regardless of how long it actually was, it was way too short for a real relationship and especially marriage. Of course unless you talk about something like those Vegas weddings. But those usually have short life span.

Well, yelling about that would also be a huge turnoff for most women, I guess (at least the ones I knew were not really into stuff like this).
But how knows though... Maybe Padmé had a weird fetish.

But long story short: Barely any of their conversations or behaviour felt natural or gave the feeling that there is a strong emotional bound developing between them. For example after Anakin openly admitted that he supports dictatorship, he rode on one of those CGI-pigs and then they rolled on the grass... Awkward for sure, but far from beeing anything natural or convincing.

 

This guy's a crackup, banging on about Dooku and Yoda .

You know women, they love damaged men . Seriously though, there are actually some deleted scenes that show what Anakin and Padme have in common with each other, awful chemistry and writing aside. Unfortunately, they disrupted the pacing and had to be removed. Instead, we got a bliddy sand line .

That was a joke.

 

I must admit, after reading a number of your posts now, I am starting to get the impression that you may be somewhat pretentious. You consistently tell people that their opinions are invalid or that they are critiquing the films wrong. I'm glad we have an arbiter like yourself as the final authority on such things, where would we be otherwise .

My point about Anakin is simple, he is unlikable in ALL the PT films, regardless of whether or not he is a different character in each one. Also, your statement that is a different character depending on the film only backs up the argument that Anakin is an incredibly frustrating character in the PT.

Note: Edited slightly for the sake of being a little nicer.

 

This. If Movie Anakin was more like TCW Anakin, the PT would have been at least bearable (there are still many other problems, but a major one, if not THE major one, would have been fixed).

What bad dialogue? Do I even have to go into this? *sigh*
"I hate sand, it's course and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere."
"Are you saying love has blinded you?"*
"Are you an angel?"
"[insert Jar Jar quote here]"**
And there are about five trillion more.

*That whole exchange in Sith honestly makes me want to vomit. That is how bad that scene is. Jar Jar is more bearable.
**I'll give him, "Monsters out there, leaking in here, weesa all sinking and no power? Whena yousa thinksa wesa in trouble?!" That line is actually funny. Cause, you know, it actually comes from the situation and not bad slapstick or silly voices?

Yeah, when you say that, you've failed at debate. And you are incorrect. Qui-Gon's presence in the story constantly overshadowed Obi-Wan, who is a major character in the saga as a whole as well as the prequel trilogy. Plus, thanks to Qui-Gon's presence, Obi-Wan and Anakin exchange three lines of dialogue in The Phantom Menace. A major element of the trilogy is supposed to be their friendship (as well as it being a tragedy when it ends) and we waste a third of it with them barely interacting. Combined with the next film having them being antagonistic towards each other, that ends with two-thirds of the trilogy wasted when it came to their friendship.

This beautifully sums up everything, doesn't it?

 

Well, isn't that pretty much the attitude I've found here when reading through this thread? "Our verdicts are based on evidence and analysis and yours are not"?

That's how that stuff goes.

Don't worry.

 

Ah, cause I thought you were talking about 2 and 3

1's, indeed, about half blank. Maybe third, I'm not sure...

"Life spam" haha.

They "get lost" in this idyllic Stilleben dating while fleeing from assassins, and there's no coherence between the scenes - one moment he's having his autistic meltdown in front of the entire court, the next they're strolling down the lake; and that's just one example out of several.

I'd say whatever problems the "time span" may have contributed to this, kinda gets drowned out by the rest - though I'd rather say it's not a problem at all. by itself.

Resurrecing your dead mother with magic is like, totally creepy?

How is that particular thing an "example" of what you just said?

First of all / aside from that, he doesn't "openly admit" - on the contrary, it's left open whether it was a joke or not.
"Dictatorship", while that word was used, doesn't necessarily capture the tone of the idea (provided it was srs in the first place) - idealistic absolutism is probably closer.

Anyway, so they laugh/joke about (this) and then they ride a thing - it's like, eh whatever.

 

What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas... We could get into detalis like that again for the millionth time since the PT, but its really unnecessary.
As I said in my orignal comment, creating beliveable on-screen love stories are extremely hard.
Aside from how bad the writing was, I think the main problem was the complete lack of chemistry between the two actors.

It was an example of how unnatural and unconvincing the whole situation feels... Anakin talks about his support of dictatorship in a wide open are while they are supposed to be hiding from assassins, then they awkwardly laugh and roll on the grass...

It feels to me that Lucas was concentrating way too much on exposition (Anakin's support of Palpatine in the future), then suddenly realised there is a love story should be going on... Lets just make them laugh and end the scene with riding on a pig and rolling on the grass. Because thats how people in love behave right?
Their constanst switching of tone and the forced ,,levity" feels incredibly unconvincing (at least to me).

*Edit
Thanks for pointing out the life span typo. I appreciate your contribution to the forum.

I agree 100%. The deleted scene in Padmé's home was the only scene where I felt some chemistry between them.

 

Hi guys. I just want to say something.

To those who say that the prequels have bad acting, sure, we can all agree that Hayden Christensen didn't do an outstanding performance.

But don't forget Ian McDiarmid, Ewan McGregor, Frank Oz, Christopher Lee, Anthony Daniels or Liam Neeson.

I think they did a great job and even Hayden had some pretty cool moments in Revenge of the Sith.

The prequels have problems, yes, but the performances were good in my opinion.