SPECULATION Episode II and III are depressing movies.

Hmm, seems like you missed the point. Sure, do we disagree with each other and offer up evidence for our reasons why? Of course, but its all in how we go about it. We don't don't generally do so in a way that is insulting, condescending or outright dismissive to other members. That's the difference between how members here generally go about doing things and how you have frequently format your posts and statements.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 28, 2016, Original Post Date: Aug 28, 2016 ---

Good points my friend, it certainly wasn't all bad on the acting front.

 

I've not insulted or dismissed anybody

 

You've quoted half of the sentence, of course it doesn't make sense. See, I've done the same with your sentence and now it doesn't make any sense.

Your arguments seem to be a bit muddled a lot of the time 2K, I find that's what devoting a lot of time and energy to defending the Prequels does to a person.

 

This sentence makes no sense.

 

Agree. By watching TCW, I have started liking Anakin more than what I did just with watching the PT.

Lol maybe as the Screen Junkies folks said, that was intentional lol.

Agree.

 

Why? All you had said was, Gin and Tonic are "wrong".

Well, "overshadowed" is a little bit mildly put, Obiwan was pretty much a sidekick for most of the movie.

This is particularly a problem because he was introduced as an equal lead in the first few scenes on board of the station, and ended as one too - so him getting relegated to the background this much inbetween isn't justified at all.

That's part of ^^.

It's nowhere as antagonistic as some people like to claim - but whether that's the case or not, it got completely redesigned in III, so in that sense it was wasted.

Okay, now you're kinda of starting to rely on deliberately missing points... again, what "in a wide open"? He says it as a joke, or she suspects him of that, and it's never really made clear.
The "laughing" comes from him "trolling" her in that way, and, in general, a direct reaction to exactly that bit.

So... that transition certainly isn't unnatural or awkward; and while it's not clear how they go from that to riding huge fat things, the mood kind of stays the same between the cuts.

Well... that bit, and the whole political discussion was organically incorporated into the dialogue and personal interaction, so it's kind of exactly the opposite of what you claim.

However, it remains a "snippet" of what should've been if not a fleshed out, then at least a complete image of his political ideals, or cognitive dissonances or whatnot - to such an extent, it's completely unclear if he actually DOES think that way.

If he did, it certainly doesn't carry over into the next movie, where he doesn't.

Well it's more platonic/flirtatious here than "in love", for what it matters - it's like a recreational thing, so they sit on a picnic, then decide to do some "sports" or whatever... if the guy's some athete, would he go impress his "gf" by trying to ride a bull or something? Well, at least a non-dangerous equivalent?

Most of the time they go play frisbee at the beach or something, but who cares really.

 

Do you want me to forward this to the OP?

 

Typo again, sorry. I still need to get used to my new laptop's keboard. I meant ,,wide open area" instead of wide ,,open are".

Yes, it was Lucas's way of wiritng the love dialogues. Incorporate exposition into the interaction, then end the scene with kiss/laugh/stare out of nowhere. It was meant to be a Romeo & Juliet type of love story I guess (except the quality dialogues, wit and build up), but the whole scene is just bizarre imo.
We have two people who know barely anything about each other, except for the fact the the guy is pushing way to hard to the point where he actually makes the girl unconfortable. At a scene where they are talking about themselves, exploring their political ideas the guy cracks a joke about supporting dictatorship (in a society where democracy seems to be deeply respected) and then they kiss. Kind of like talking about sand (as referred to its irritating nature in certain bodyparts) turns Padmé on? I dont know... It feels forced and awkward to me. Very far from beeing convincing.

Not only it should have been fleshed out, but imo it should have been the whole center of Vader's turn and not the love story between actors who share absolutely zero chemistry (which should've stayed secondary imo).
According to the PT, the only reason why Anakin became Vader was solely because of Padmé (as the fear of losing her) and nothing more. While in Aotc he seems to have a developed political opinion he certainly dosent carry it over into ROTS, just as you said. The same with his relationship with Palpatine. in ROTS he barely even likes the guy. He dosent really know him, the only reason he needs him is because of Padmé's apparent death during childbirth (becase people surrounded by a futuristic medical enviroment still die during childbirth??). But that really raises the question: Why does he stay with him after Padmé's death? He didnt have any reason to serve the megalomaniac monster anymore...
It was a pretty weak attempt trying to backtrack the entire lack of proper backstory when Anakin starts mentioning the jedi as evil people during the final duel of ROTS... When did that happen? When did he ever find themi evil before? Nor even started doubting them? Was it becase of the denial of his promotion? What a bunch of kakadookie...

Like I said creating a convincing love story onscreen is extremely hard even to good directors. The best solution is giving enough time for the audience. If two people share visible sympathy and chemistry, time will make it convincing. Just like Han and Leia's relationship over the episodes.
When the love story is just a part of a bigger story than its better if it stays in the background. Something like the love story in Goodfellas, where two good actors share some chemistry, a couple of scenes together than fast forward to marriage. Noone will ever question it.

I might even say Padmé and Anakin's romance could've been offscreen. Both characters were already introduced in ep I, and there is a 10 year gap between the episodes. Start ep II by Anakin alreadly married to Padmé (tell their story in some novel) and focus on their relationship, rather than how that relationship started...

 

Okay look I don't really care for that plotline anyway, but:

So how is 2 main characters interacting with each other, of whom 1 of them is supposed to turn dictator down the line and the other stay a sad pro-liberty mom of future rebels, expressing the start of their future poltical differences when the subject of their interaction turns to politics, even a case of "exposition"?

It's not like his evil arc is supposed to take place entirely disconnected from her, and therefore their "interaction" should be "only about love" and not that other central element?


The next question is execution and how naturally the topics are combined in the dialogue - and, in this particularly scene, it's done quite naturally.

They don't kiss, and the laughing comes from... Anakin's dictator stuff being framed as a joke.

Seriously, come on now.

That's an overstatement - this is like their 7th scene, and it's the first half of the movie; plus, already know from EpI, and are familiar with each other's positions.

The whole "so you're obviously a politician, actually I've kinda got my own opinion on that arena" thing seems like a natural thing to bring up at that point.

If it was their 1st or 2nd scene... not so much; which is why it's so jarring when he statrs complaining about his job in their 2nd scene

Well, not in this scene - not really in the last several either, though there were uncomfortable moments for different reasons.

Well, hey, you know

Now what does that have to do with anything


_____________________________________________

Whether it should've or shouldn't have been the center doesn't have anything to do with how good the chemistry is.

I like how you go out of your way to emphasized that last bit, and nothing more - um, no, actually there's plenty more, this one's just at the center (and/or the bit that tips things over).

This political opinion doesn't carry over - but he does have firm political convictions in ROTS, to be precise the exact opposite of what they're "hinted to be" in AOTC

It's a very pro-legitimate-democracy attitude + the belief that Palpatine's heightened powers are entirely justified as they're beneficial and have been voted for by the people + suspicions that the Jedi are trying to go against that for ulterior/questionable motives.

The bias in favor of Palpatine is strenghtened (or secretly motivated?) by the respect he gives them, as opposed to the council.


In the midpoint, he learns that Palpatine is evil and the Jedi have been right all along - right, but not necessarily justified, as he's still "doubting their motives": could it have been that they were just powerhungry, and him turning out to be a Sith is a welcome opportunity to them to seize it?
The prospect of losing Padme is what tips him over to take his side - however, Mace is kinda trying to take over and kill him against the "Jedi code", so that gives him a rationale to grab on to the "Jedi power grab" narrative... in which he's the noble savior of the Republic.

From that point on, it's a lot of rationalization, entirely doubling down on Palpatine's narrative because it feels good and he's burned all the bridges, and giving himself wiggle room in terms of "staying loyal to the Republic, and the Chancelor" (so that he can pick the "chancellor" bit later on).

Eh that's a load ay horse bogus, he definitely does like him in this one.

irrelevant

Well... "that" was "raises the question", would be your own omissions

1) He had some ulterior motives for the turn as well, being his desire for power and respect.
2) He'd bought the "Jedi conspiracy" narrative, though not entirely baselessly, primarily for emotional reasons / rationalization. Why wouldn't he stay with it?

Ok pal you just don't remember the movie.

So you forgot the next scene in which he gets outraged at Obiwan telling him to spy on Palpatine, and even winning the argument against him? And then Palpatine being like "yep, they're trying to grab power, you suspected correctly"?

Being denied promotion, of course, it the kind of thing that might predispose one to entertain such ideas more than otherwise... but it's never depicted as a primary or even conscious motivation.

 

Have you ever tried Birdseye Potato Waffles 2K, you'd love them, they're wafflely versatile and they go with cheese.

 

ayy lmao le epic mayy mayy xd rofl

 

What was Anakin thinking when he asked Palpatine "Where is Padme ?" when he first awoke in the Vader suit ? That she would like him still in that suit ? Pretending nothing happened and life could be the same ?

It's a major plothole there.

 

Hello everyone. I'm new here and would like to give my 2 cents regarding the OP.

I agree with much of the criticism of the prequils. There was too much CGI and much of it just didn't feel real. The acting at times was painful! Nobody every accused Hayden Christiansen of being a great actor, but how do you take Natalie Portman and make her acting seem so forced and cringe worthy? A great director takes an average actor and makes him great. GL seems to to the opposite! Some of the dialogue was downright painful, and obviously the actors were reading the script thinking WTF! Some of the characters were brutal! How did Jar jar not get cut when they were making this movie? That's what reshoots are for! Someone should have had the balls to go to GL and say "This Jar Jar thing is a bad idea." Seeing Michael Jackson play the role would have been better and more believable! The bottom line is that Lucas became too fixated on technology, and didn't focus nearly enough energy on story telling. GL was too autonomous and made all the decisions by himself. Obviously there was not nearly enough input put in by all the talented people around him. Also, his infatuation with CGI and Digital film largely plagued the films. Bottom line, if the right people were on board to assist with the screenplay, and had cinematographers who didn't rely so heavily on CGI, and had quality directors take the helm (As he did try with Speilberg, and Ron howard but they refused), the Prequil trilogy would have been so different, and so much better!

All that being said, some of the prequils are watchable and enjoyable. I now look at the movies through the eyes of my 9 year old. Of course, he likes the original trilogy more, but he loves the prequils too. I mean as painful as much of the prequils are there are many things that were extremely watchable and even memorable, especially for kids. Just some of the positives off the top of my head.

• TPM Lightsaber battle between OWK, QGJ, and DM.
  
• Ewan McGregor's Obi Wan Kenobi in all 3 movies.
  
• AOTC lightsaber battle between Yoda and CD.
• ROTS lightsaber battle between OWK and Anakin.
  
• Battle and dogfight between Obi Wan and Jango.
• The podrace scene.
• Showdown between Yoda and Emperor palpetine in ROTS.
• Battle between MW, Palpetine, and the jedi in ROTS.
• The scenes in coruscunt and the jedi temple etc (although too much CGI).

Surely the prequils could and should have been better but they aren't a total waste of time, especially for younger audiences. Still I do believe that eventually Disney will remake prequil trilogy eventually, but I believe it will be quite some time before the original trilogy is remade if ever. It's a shame that if the right people we're at the helm, the prequils wouldn't be something that evokes such nausea and hatred. lol.

 

Pre-pils have their advantages.

 

I don't believe that Leia and Han's romance was handled that well. If I must be honest, the closest it came to be very enjoyable or well done was in "The Empire Strikes Back". Otherwise . . . it's a bit of a crap shoot to me.

Frankly, I find this piece of criticism very questionable. I can't believe I just read this. I'm sorry, but I cannot take it seriously. I just can't.

You know, I don't mind encountering some criticisms of the Prequel Trilogy. I have encountered some that made good sense. And I have written my own criticisms in my reviews of the movies. But it seems that most of the criticisms I have encountered seem so off base or vague that I cannot but shake my head at the idea that I'm supposed to take them seriously.

 

That's a big criticism of ROTJ that I have as well. After Tatooine, all Leia and Han do is get captured and saved by teddy bears. The movie's saved by Hamill, Vader and McDiarmind and the space battle, but those two only have that one good "I love you - I know" moment after she's shot on Endor, but the rest isn't really notable.

Did I mention they get saved by teddy bears? lol

 

I can understand everything except the soundtrack slacking. The prequel trilogy had THE BEST, most original, most ambitious and timeless score of all time. Every ship, every small moment and shot has it's own little melody. It blows my mind. Yeah.. Can't agree with the soundtrack slacking at any point in time in the prequels which is a BIG part of why the films still work and have a soul.

 

After all that had happened to him and what he'd done, he thought she was his last hope and all he needed and he also did it all for her so of course he would think that
.

 

Yep very tasty.

 

I certainly don't hate the prequels by any means. They simply are a different style of film than the original trilogy and now the sequel trilogy. If you like and understand opera, you'd see the resemblance in tone. However, I think the PT had some major flaws in script and casting. The overall story is engaging, only made more by the Clones Wars series. Over time I have grown to appreciate TPM more and more as it is the closest in tone and style to the OT, while my feelings for ROTS have dimmed. AOTC started strong, dimmed, but now is rising a bit again.