Has TFA lost some of its luster since coming out on home video?

Still third on my list, although Rogue One came close to displacing it:

ESB
ANH
TFA
RO
ROJ
ROTS
TPM

















AOTC

 

No one told her about it. But she just experienced Kylo using the Force to probe her mind. So she tried her own attempt at it. Ben was talking to him. But Luke very clearly doesn't understand what is happening - he keeps tapping his ear...clearly wondering what is going on.

 

Ok, let me play Devil's Advocate with you: If there is a legit explanation in Episode 8 or 9 about Rey's 'sudden' Force Abilities, will that change your mind about this whole issue in TFA? My point is that you are jumping to conclusions in a story that isn't finished being told yet, rather then just going with the story and evaluating it after the fact.

For example in 1999 while everyone was arguing over TPM, I had a wait and see attitude. I waited until Episode 3 to really evaluate the Trilogy as a whole especially Anakin's turn to the darkisde. The irony is I actually was a PT defender after TPM & AOTC, because I thought they were a good setup and then ROTS would answer all of those questions. ROTS is actually my least favorite PT movie because it's just a total mess and the trilogy falls like a house of cards, IMO.

Let me say this, if we walk out of Episode 9 and there is nothing addressed about Rey's 'sudden' force abilities during the ST then I will be right with you calling that plot point out as just lazy writing. But right now, I am doing exactly what I did with the PT and have a wait and see attitude and see how it shakes out after Episode 9.

 

As someone for whom TFA is not exactly wonderful, I've gotta say, this is a very good point. I'm in the opposite boat as far as ROTS goes (I think it's the best of the PT), but I definitely think it "made" the prequel trilogy. Had the prequels just been The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones, I'm not sure I would have given them the time of day. But for me, Revenge of the Sith was a comparatively-strong enough movie that I think the PT's existence is justified.

As for The Force Awakens, I loved it after first seeing it, but quickly began to consider different things as flaws. Now, it's a movie that I tend to view critically in the abstract, but enjoy undoubtedly whenever I watch it. Kind of the opposite of how I view the PT, actually. Haha.

 

I saw it 4 times in the theater(3 of those being IMAX 3D). That tells you how much I LOVED IT then. But when i watched the BRD the 1st time, that third act really flipped for me. I can appreciate the parallels in the 1st act. And i love the 2nd act. But as soon as the 3rd act goes into the "I wish that was the case. This is the Death Star, and THIS is Starkiller Base" it goes south for me. That 3rd act is such a carbon copy of ANH to me that the film has dropped a couple spots in my rankings.

 

Yeah it's easier to take in when you see it on your own.

 

I look at DeathStar 2 and StarKiller Base differently then just retreads for ROTJ & TFA from ANH. Each movie has its own payoff and that is why I'm not bothered by the reuse of 'another DeathStar.'

The payoff in The Original SW is clearly the destruction of the Death Star. The tension builds and builds with Luke (and Han eventually coming and saving the day). It's a moment of pure joy when Luke finally blows up the DeathStar.

The payoff in ROTJ is not the Destruction of DS2, as now it's a mere background space battle to the Throne Room Scenes. The tensions builds throughout the movie between Luke & Vader & and The Emperor, and the true payoff is Vader throwing the Emperor over the shaft and saving his son.

The payoff in TFA is not the Destruction of StarKiller Base, as now it's a mere background space battle to the conflict between Rey & Kylo Ren. The true payoff in TFA is Rey meeting Luke and pulling out his Lightsaber.

Yes I get why fans roll their eyes at DS2 and StarkillerBase, but each movie is structured to give you a different payoff, and that's why they don't bother me as much.

 

I definitely think TFA has lost some of its luster, not that that is a bad thing. Over the last decade RotS has gone up for me, so much so that I would put it equal to at least RotJ. I think a lot of fans were so worried that TFA was going to be another Ep. 1 that as long as it didn't suck they were going to praise it and now that it has been a year and a half people are going back and reevaluating the movie. I think despite its shortcomings as long as TFA laid a good foundation for Star Wars moving forward I can accept it being a bit disappointing in retrospect.

 

I get your point but you could say the same about Empire and Jedi. Both of those movies are dependent on the previous films. If we just watch Empire by itself without watching ANH or Jedi, we would be left with a lot of questions.

 

Star Wars is currently 8 films.
Only 3 of them work as stand alone films.
TPM
ANH
RO

All the others depend entirely on your knowledge of the other films.
Otherwise you really do not care about any of the characters. They waste no time reintroducing them.

Star Wars films get a bit of a pass here because they are so ingrained in our pop culture that EVERYONE knows Luke Skywalker, Darth Vader etc.

 

I think that the Star Wars movies of the past are heavily connected. I wouldn't say they are completely dependent on each other. for example, I think Empire stands on its own as a great movie regardless of ANH and ROTJ, I don't think the same can be said for TFA. It doesn't seem to function as a complete story. It functions as a part 1. Of course this is all like, just my opinion, man. But it seems like TFA is depending on TLJ to answers all its questions, or to make all that stuff they did in TFA worthwhile or make sense. Killing Han, blowing up a ton of planets, the resistence fighting the FO, Rey being an untrained super-jedi. Just say why they're looking for Luke...or why Ben needed to kill Han...And have some guts and blow up Coruscant! not some no-name new senate planet. And stop winking at the camera and telling me there's something special about the girl! Just tell me! Don't make me wait 2 years! Sorry, that got ranty.
Overall, I like TFA. I think its fun. But it doesn't even come close to being as good a movie as any of the OT in my book.

 

Why should I care about any of the characters of ESB?
You spend 0 time getting to know them.
What the hell is that laser sword?
How did Luke just pull it from the ice?
Who is the black samurai and why is he after them so bad?
Wait, he's the coolest one. Why am I rooting against him?
Who the hell is the old ghost dude?

We take a lot for granted with ESB because it's all set up in ANH

 

All of those things are explained in the movie itself.
We find out right off that the main characters are comrades in a rebelion and that the Empire is looking for them. Plus they're all likeable (at least to me). We find out there's a love triangle right off. We know Luke has some mystical powers. The old ghost is explained just fine on Dagobah. The the black samurai...well it turns out, he's Luke's father. That's why he's looking for Luke the whole movie. Granted they don't explain why luke has a lightsaber in TESB, but "How did Luke pull it from the ice?" The movie goes into this in great depth on Dagobah. Yoda talks about the force a lot.
The Empire Strikes back has resolution. Luke confronts Vader (or Vader traps Luke, depending how you look at it). Vader tempts Luke. Luke resists and escapes. Han and Leia have a great B plot that ends with with them admitting their feelings for each other. TESB answers all it's own questions (with the exception of "There is another"). It's a complete movie. It's not a cliffhanger. It doesn't need ROTJ to make it make sense.
It's one thing to say "I hope they're able to rescue Han in the next movie."
It's another to say, "I hope they explain everything I just watched in the next movie."

 

No, it's all explained in ANH. So you don't question it.

If you had no knowledge of Star Wars and especially ANH and just popped in ESB, by the time Luke gets to Dagobah you would be so thoroughly confused and lost on why certain things are happening I doubt most people would still be fully invested.

It turns out he's Luke's father but why does that matter so much? Because of things you learn about Luke and his father in ANH.
The reveal is absolutely pointless without ANH. One of, if not the single biggest reveal in cinematic history is rendered to one silly soap opera-ish moment without ANH.

They don't explain jack. You just go with it. They expand. Not explain. ESB is viewed entirely different as a stand alone film. The characters are fairly weak. You don't know why you should care so deeply about them. There's no real connective plot.

You say it's not a cliffhanger but the uncertain fate of Han Solo, "there is another"....Luke and Vader being related.....

Right. No cliffhangers there.

 

What I mean by not a cliffhanger is that the main plot is resolved. Luke gets trained and confronts Vader. But yeah the Han resuce is more cliffhangery.

And yes, all those thing are "explained" in ANH. BUT they are all also explained in TESB and explained better. They explain EVERYTHING over the course to the entire movie. That's one of the things that makes it so great.
Luke is the son of a great warrior. Luke has connection to mystic power. Old ghost dude was friends with Luke's dad. Yoda new Luke's dad. Vader was Obi Wan's apprentice. Vader's looking for luke to turn him to the dark side, etc. etc. etc....There are so many in-movie conversations explaining everything. It's all right there in the movie.

We might just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Anyway, my point is that (in my opinion) TFA is not so good as a singular movie, but might end up serving as a good First Act to a trilogy. But I think only time will tell.

 

There really is no main plot.
Luke has a completely different plot than Han Leia and Chewie.
It's several small plots all about expanding characters.

I'm saying, if you plucked someone out of 1975 and showed them ESB without knowledge of ANH and SW in general, they would be completely befuddled. There would be so much unwrapping of things and require so many viewings to catch it all.

But because we KNOW these things, we just pass by them like it's common knowledge.

My sister has never seen a single SW movie. She probably never will.
But she knows who Luke Skywalker, Darth Vader, Han Solo, Princess Leia, Chewbacca, Yoda etc are. She knows the Millennium Falcon. She knows "The Force" and what a Lightsaber is.

It's almost impossible now to find someone who doesn't which makes looking at ESB as a stand alone film nearly impossible.

 

Well, Han was killed because Harrison wanted to be out of Star Wars.

 

This is my feeling exactly. I love the first 2/3rds of the film. With Starkiller Base, TFA is "good." Without it, TFA would be "great," to me.

 

My first Star Wars experience was ESB I was 6. I had heard of SW but little details. I knew ESB was part 2 but I didn't have any of the questions you mentioned. With the possible exception of who Obi-Wan was. Even that was clear that Luke had visions guiding him.

Part of the magic of SW is things happen in the films that have history to them even if you didn't know the details.