How do you interpret the prophecy of the chosen one

Just to be clear, I asked you to state your view on the prophecy which you did.

There are dark side users that may also have been in existence at the time, like Snoke and TCW and Rebels groups. The removal of the Sith would unless all dark side user groups were destroyed or none existent not have brought balance.

Anakin was pivotal in the destruction of the Jedi order leaving two remaining members. Its worth mentioning that counter balancing two Jedi were two Sith. On screen.

 

This is where the gaping hole in your argument becomes obvious.

The balance of the force is disrupted by the Sith when they spread evil and evil takes over. We know that the Sith existed for some time before this happened therefore showing quite clearly how the imbalance is caused when evil takes over.

If the Sith or any dark sider existed but wasn't spreading evil on a galactic scale then the balance wouldn't be greatly impacted. The Sith of course are very powerful and are always looking to take over so whilst they are about, the imbalance will gradually slip until it's utterly destroyed (unless the Jedi stop them). Other dark siders aren't so successful and the Jedi are consistently putting out those fires and thus keeping the peace.

Anakin didn't bring balance because he destroyed the group that "called themselves Sith". He brought balance by destroying the group who were spreading evil everywhere which just so happened, in this case, to be the Sith.

It's simply about stopping those who are spreading evil. That's how you bring balance. Your problem is that you think it's about the power the force users weild thus missing the fact that this is about the balance of the force, not balancing out those who use the force.

As Lucas says, "as evil takes over it pushes the force out of balance". Funnily enough, his films depict that too...go figure!

Ps. End of rotj = no Sith and 1 Jedi (with 3 Jedi ghosts). And the force was balanced. Nothing to do with 2 Jedi vs 2 Sith.

 

The film depicts how the Jedi were pushed to the brink of extinction, at the hands of Anakin and palpatine. Without Anakins actions there would have been no shift in balance.

 

There was already a shift in balance. "Evil is everywhere", as it begins in ROTS. Anakin simply had a choice in ROTS to destroy the Sith and bring balance but he rejected that choice and instead enabled the Sith to fully take over. The Jedi were not causing the imbalance, they were simply being outplayed by the Sith and ended up doing the Sith's bidding somewhat. But had the Sith not been about there wouldn't have been imbalance at all.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 2, 2016, Original Post Date: Nov 2, 2016 ---

Look at it this way, do you think it to be a coincidence that Lucas introduced the ideas of symbiosis and balance of the Force in the same movie? Of course not. Balance is all about symbiosis - lifeforms living together for mutual advantage. The Force is in balance when this process is in action. But when groups like the Sith take over they "spread evil everywhere" and this prevents symbiosis. This is why the Sith are like a cancer. They ensure that the symbiotic notion of living together for mutual advantage is disrupted and then replaced by selfishness and self-preservation. And the more evil rises the more it is easier to come by. The more it rises, the more people commit evil acts.

 

Anakin stopped palpatine being killed. It would have ended with Windu killing Palpaitne.

 

Yes, Mace would've brought balance. Anakin stopped that.

 

Why do you believe it was important for George to portrait the Jedi being purged?

 

That's what happened to them. They were all but destroyed by the Sith.
It was important to show this as well, this is what happened!

However, I think what you're getting at is your theory that Anakin had to both purge the Jedi and destroy the Sith to bring balance. I disagree.
The films don't show the Jedi causing imbalance - just that they weren't very good at preventing the evil from rising anymore.
That doesn't mean the Force wanted the Jedi purged.

The prophecy was a prediction about a future event that eventually did happen - a chosen one defeated those who brought about the dark times.
The imbalance is caused by evil being spread everywhere.

Now it is fairly argued that the Jedi were part of the larger problem in that they had become too reliant on the cosmic force, detaching themselves too much from the living force and becoming too arrogant. But this in itself didn't cause the imbalance. It simply made them inept at stopping the Sith and in the end contributed to their own downfall. But the Force didn't want this. The Force wanted an end to those who spread evil across the galaxy - the Sith.

The Jedi, though they had their faults, were not evil. All they wanted to do and what they dedicated their lives to was serving the Force.
At the end of the day, Yoda knew the faults of the Jedi. He knew they needed to change. And through Qui Gon he would've made those changes regardless of what Anakin/Vader did to them. But he and all the other Jedi got caught up in the war created by the Sith and were swept along with that. Put simply, the Sith were very good at spreading evil.

The point is - if there were no Sith then there would be no imbalance. The Jedi are connected to this but not directly responsible for it. The story was about them readjusting their ways so they could better serve the Force by destroying the Sith. It was not about them causing the imbalance. The Jedi are selfless and contribute to the symbiotic cycle of the galaxy. The Sith are selfish and destroy that cycle.

 

When you talk about the Sith spreading evil this language is rather none specific considering we are talking about a movie that has clear examples of major events. Let me ask you a series of small questions which may help us both come to the same conclusion.

Do you believe without the Jedi there can be no balance?

 

Without anyone like the Jedi (e.g. A group that selflessly serve the force) then evil will run amuck. And there will always be evil in the universe. Dark side groups, from the Sith to the KoR will rise and want power - spreading evil as a result. Only the Jedi have the philosophy and power to stop such things. A group is needed to maintain the symbiotic harmony of the galaxy.

So, basically without the Jedi there will not be balance.

 

Do you believe its the actions of the Sith that causes imbalance not just there existence?

 

Yes, it's their actions.

Though the nature of the Sith means that they will always be active in seeking imbalance. I could however envisage a scenario where a gravely injured Sith could hide in the shadows and not be up to anything for a time. But that's largely irrelevant.

 

I feel like I need to reiterate again the difference between discussing the events to which the prophecy refers and discussing the prophecy itself. IE: The prediction.

Was the destruction of the Sith a requirement?
Of the prophecy, no. But then, requirement is not really the right term, is it?
It's a prediction.
You can't just throw in "requirements" that were never (so far as we know) stipulated by the prophecy as part of the prediction and then point to their absence as evidence of the prophecy not being fulfilled.
Why pick that one thing out of an infinite number of stipulations not included in the prophecy?
Does the chosen one need to be wearing black? Does he need to be more machine than man? Does he need to be called Anakin? Does he need to be male, blond-haired, Jedi, Sith, human...?

Of course not. None of these things are "requirements" of the prophecy.
But this is all totally missing sight of the fact that these things can be independent and unrelated truths of the EVENTS to which, through hindsight, the prophecy refers.

Hindsight suggests it was specifically Palpatine's rise to power.
There may be a billion Sith doing nasty things. There may be a billion great Jedi. There may also be a billion misguided Jedi. Or none of the above. There may be varying degrees of balance and imbalance attributable to infinite factors through the ages.
It doesn't matter; the prophecy was a prediciton pointing to a specific person involved in specific events. The events themselves are only specific with the privilege hindsight.

There may even be another guy comes along, just like Palaptine, who rises to power and has a similar oppressive grip on the galaxy. Why would that have anything to do with the prophecy we know about anyway? It just wouldn't.

You are trying to reconcile "events that did happen" with "all of the variables the prophecy didn't account for", rather than looking at the facts - that we know Anakin was the Chosen One and brought balance to the Force by killing Palaptine and ending the oppresive reign of the Empire. The onus is not on us to prove the filmmaker was lying when he explained this is what his movies showed, the onus is on anyone saying the prophecy wasn't fullfilled by Anakin to prove why this is the case.
You can't add conditions to the prophecy that were never there and present it as evidence.

Lets take another approach. We actually learn very little of the prophecy onscreen.
Yet we are in a fantasy world here, where people can have visions of the future and of the past.
I'm guessing we are probably all agreed that this prophecy was informed by a similar vision or gift, yes? That someone or something had some kind of intuition about future events through the Force itself?
Or does anyone think it was simply a prediction in the strictest sense of the word? A lucky guess, as some would have it, nothing to do with any supernatural or spiritual insight?
And do we all agree the prediction was made long before the Jedi we see in the movie even existed?

Just curious.

 

@Get In Gear Yes I agree the prophecy we are talking about refers to a vision or foreseeing of events to come. My personal opinion differs somewhat from this. I do not believe there to be anything more than a prediction. Void of destiny.
There is a literal prophecy. There is also a Jedi view of the prophecy. I would postulate there is a Sith interpretation.
It seems reasonable to believe each side would see balance as meaning the destruction of each other. The sith’s belief in Anakin being the chosen one would be compounded by the fact that not only did Anakin destroy the Jedi order, he also restored numbers to virtual balance. The Jedi then went in to hiding. Leaving no one to oppose the Sith.

The events that transpired had to happen in the sequence they happened in and could have happened in no other way. If we believe destiny to be tied in to the prophecy it would have always been part of anakins destiny to destroy the Jedi order otherwise there would have been no balance to restore. As mace windu would have killed palpatine ending the trouble. And Anakin would never have removed the opposition to the Sith.

Later Luke becomes Jedi trained and restores balance. The O.T, as described by George and his use of Joseph cambell’s hero’s journey can remain unchanged. Luke remains the chosen one for the Jedi. As the last surviving Jedi and the remover of Darth Vader and the emperor. Anakin the Chosen one of the Sith.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 2, 2016, Original Post Date: Nov 2, 2016 ---

There is a pole does the title chosen on imply inherent goodness. The majority of people have said no. The inference being the chosen one can be good or bad. This could have been a cleaver reversal of a tradianal chosen one trope portrayed by George. Subverting our expectation.

We knew Vader would not turn out to be a Jedi so we assumed the prophecy to apply to Luke. What a interesting perspective for George (and considering this is Vaders back story) to portray events from the perspective of the Sith. Meaning the Jedi were right but for reasons unforeseen, he was the Chosen one, just for the other side.

 

If I make a prediction that tomorrow at noon you will trip and break your ankle, it's that single event that is relevant. What you do leading up to the event is utterly irrelevant and has no relation to the prediction. You'll either break your ankle at noon or you won't. The prediction doesn't govern your life up to the event.

Destiny is different. That is about the path that best suits you in life and choosing whether to follow it or not.

A prediction was made that said dark times would come but a chosen one would be born who would bring balance (end the dark times). That is all. Anakin was born. He eventually destroyed the Sith which ended the dark times. It's just that straightforward.

The Sith may or may not have felt Anakin was their chosen one. Heck, some of the audience might have considered that possibility at first thought. But they were wrong to think this. Balance meant the end of the Sith in this case and Anakin did that.

Luke did not get rid of the Emperor - the main driving force for imbalance. Anakin did, saving his son in the process.

Re: The poll. It's a confusing question. Are you asking if bringing balance is inherently good or if the chosen one will be inherently good?

 

I would ask to desist in this juvenile pursuit of me being someone other than I portray myself. For the last time. This is not my thread. This is getting embarrassing.

 

Stop lying. Same grammar. Same style. Same threads. Fallen angel was banned recently and then you emerge.

Anyway, I was asking the question innocently.

 

I have referred this over to the mods. I am happy to debate ideas with any one that is respectful in the discussion. I have had to repeatedly ask you not to be rude and insulting. I would suggest you reassess your values because you are wrong and no one likes finger pointing. In avoidance of future escalation I am going to block you.