Kylo the Anti-Hero

I agree with you about Rey and maybe Luke, I'd have to see this play out in TLJ for Kylo. He seems to be sold out to the Darkside, at least in choice if not in spirit. I suspect that as far as the Light Side goes, it's not going to be as restrictive as it was in the Republic Era, but more grey or middle-ground. I do think the Darkside will still exist in future installments post-ST era. Outside of the movies there has always existed middle-ground/grey Jedi, even in the Order, but also outside of the Order.

Maz is not a Jedi, but she is probably a grey user of the Force in some sense. There might be an argument there for Leia as well.

But I agree with you about that statement in the trailer about balance. I just don't know if it applies to Kylo yet.

 

I see the trailers hinting at something like this, but Rian Johnson would have to do some really fancy footwork to make this team-up believable. We as viewers have some reason for sympathy with Kylo, if only because we see through Han and Leia's eyes. To Rey, however, Kylo is the guy who kidnapped her, killed her only father figure, and put her best friend in a coma. I buy the idea that Kylo could find redemption, and that he and Rey could even somewhat reconcile in the future, but an Episode VIII team up feels too rushed to me.

 

I can see that. But then again episode III started with Anakin and Padme rejoicing over their new baby and ended with him choking his pregnant wife, so people can change dramatically over the course of a Star Wars movie.

 

Ending the Skywalker Saga is such a vague statement from them, that it's really a red herring meant to distract you from actual mysteries.
It could just mean "No more OT characters having significant roles" or "No more galactic civil war" or "No one with the surname Skywalker despite Kylo *technically* being one"

 

Sure, it could mean those things, but based on other statements by them and the fact G.L. wanted to end the Skywalker saga in 9, I think it's safe to say that's what will happen.

 

i disagree with the notion that Kylo Ren isn't an antihero, or even a Byronic Hero; in fact, i believe the latter to be more suitable, really.

an antihero, to me, is any protagonist or "hero" that simply isn't. the Punisher is a classic example of a comic book antihero, you're right. when i think of antiheroes though i think of unsavory protagonists like Hunter S. Thompson, or one could examine the film Birdman and see how the character essentially fights with himself as to whether he's a hero or an antihero.

"An antihero, or antiheroine, is a protagonist in a story who lacks conventional heroic qualities and attributes such as idealism, courage, and morality."

Kylo Ren is, as everyone has been saying, one half of the protagonist. Rey, so far, has been the true hero in a stereotypical sense while Kylo plays opposite.

however, i think Kylo does have attributes like idealism and courage, which leads me to the Byronic hero:

"a man proud, moody, cynical, with defiance on his brow, and misery in his heart, a scorner of his kind, implacable in revenge, yet capable of deep and strong affection"

this sounds like the Kylo Ren i've been introduced to.

as for redemption, i don't really care one way or the other. there are a lot of directions this could go.

 

Yet he does nothing heroic. He's a villain protagonist. He's a central character yes, but he's not performing the acts of a hero.
An anti-hero still needs to do heroic things or they are just a villain.
If Punisher just killed for the sake of killing, he's a villainous murderer.
He kills bad people because they are bad.
His act can be heroic but his morality for it is messed up.

Kylo just killed billions because....he has daddy issues?

Yes that sounds like Kylo....if you ignore the genocide and patricide.

 

Are you so sure Kylo doesn’t feel his acts are, in a way, heroic?

To be fair, I do agree with you, antihero isn’t the right word for Kylo.

 

It's largely irrelevant to me because this creates a game where you can make an argument for any villain as being "right." Captain America Civil War handled it well, showing the side of the people who are hurt by "heroes," Doctor Who also covers this ground often and well.
Sure that makes for an interesting story and wholly different discussion but when discussing the character in this regard, as presented, he's a villain. A main character, but still a villain.

I stand by villain protagonist.

 

I didn't vote because . . . I don't know. Maybe I just don't care. However, I am curious over why a 30-something Kylo Ren continues to wear a mask when he doesn't really need it.

 

I think it is so funny and interesting how only from trailers and media interviews the vast majority of the fanbase has decided that Kylo is "one half of the protagonist." when in reality from what we know in actual canon, he is the villain. We've all been swayed in our assumptions and predictions wildly since TFA came out.

For example, if you'd only seen Episode 3 and 4, you would never call Darth Vader "half the protagonist." He was a villain, and we had no reason to think otherwise.

 

Has anyone else seen Zardoz, starring Sean Connery?

Zed, Sean’s character, is a brutish, raping, violent person, yet he is our hero. That’s an antihero.

Kylo Ren commiting evil doesn’t forbid him from having participated in heroic deeds, much like Zed having been a brute doesn’t necessarily hinder his ability to be a hero in some regard.

Does Spawn count as an antihero, I wonder? He did murder his whole life...

It’s a grey area and I think it’s likely they’ll take it there.

 

The mask smashing doesn't convince me so I voted the 4th one,

 

I think you are too stuck on the fact these "heroes" commit acts that one would normally attribute to a "villain" but are missing the point that they also do acts of "heroism" as well which attributes the term "hero" to them along with anti, byronic, tragic, villain, etc.

The problem here is Kylo has done nothing heroic so far as we have seen, thus he is so far classified as a villain since he has only been presented as so. We can argue all day long for what Kylo may think of his actions based on our speculation, but within canon we have not been given any indication as to whether Kylo sees himself as a hero. Again, even if he does, that's merely a delusion on his part and not necessarily heroic unless Kylo starts to save people. Even if he saves people does that necessarily began to classify him as a hero? For instance, I'm currently reading the Vader comics. Within them Vader saves some people here and there to serve his own purposes, but he kills far more innocent people than he saves. He also saves other villains to serve his purposes. Does this classify Vader as an anti-Hero suddenly? Does this override Vader's overwhelming villainy at the current time of this story? I mean he still serves the Emperor, is still hunting down Luke, still trying to kill Leia, Han and Chewy and still wants to overthrow the Rebellion and usurp Palpatine to rule the galaxy with his own iron fist.

Spawn as Albert Simmons was a soldier and thus killed for his country prior to being killed. Spawn as a resurrected supernatural being sought revenge for his wrongful death and eventually developed into a heroic character who also saved lives during the course of his revenge journey. When that was over, relatively, he still focused on dealing with evil despite his protests.

I haven't watched Zardoz, but I would agree with you that Zed's an anti-Hero.

Again, the problem is we have no basis for calling Kylo anything more than a villain or as Royles said, a villain protagonist, although I do think Amalgam has a point about quickly placing characters in the place of protagonist. In TFA, I categorize Kylo as more the villain than anything else. Snoke and Hux took a back seat to Kylo as far as actions. Hux would be the second villain although more of a supporting role to Kylo. Snoke is the big bad, but behind the scenes big bad villain. Kylo was the active villain moving the plot along and facing off against the heroes, Finn and Rey. Killing one of their mentors, Han, etc.

 

But TFA has already added enough and shown that Kylo's journey from light to dark and maybe back is a main story beat, which by definition makes him a protagonist. His story is central to the films. He isn't just the evil menacing genocidal monster Vader was in 4 and 5.
He's Han and Leia's kid. He's Luke's former student. He's written so that his story is what drives so much of our emotions and how we interpret what he does and why he does it. He's a evil menacing genocidal monster whose story in intrinsically woven into the story to the point of being just as important as Rey's.

 

you're right, whether Kylo has performed any "heroic" acts is debatable. however, there have been interviews in which it is intimated that Kylo Ren does feel like he's doing the right thing and that his actions are heroic, in their own way. i think it was Adam Driver who said this? i don't have a link or particular article to reference, but i know i've read it before.

we also have to keep in mind that TFA was only part one; his character is going to become probably the most complex of this trilogy. i definitely think they'll start angling Kylo towards the tragic (anti)hero type through this film to set up a dramatic ending in ep. 9.

i do agree that in TFA Kylo is more of the villain than any sort of hero, anti or otherwise. my opinion on him being a "hero" is based mostly on his trajectory and potential through TLJ and ep. 9.

 

TLJ and episode 9 could indeed go that route and I agree TFA is only one part of a whole.
I still have contention with whether or not a character or person's individual perception of their actions as right categorizes them as "hero."
Joker thinks what he does is right and he's insane.
Hitler and company thought what they were doing were the right thing and they were helping out humanity by weeding out the inferior races and history has shown them to be villainous.
At what point do we no longer sympathize with the villain's delusions of grandeur and simply call it what it is? Evil.

Again, I'm not saying Kylo can't have a heel to face turn so to speak, I'm saying we get into murky waters when we try to stretch and reshape definitions. Yes, even if scholars in the humanities in academia do it. They're not always on the right path either.

 

it's definitely tricky. i think that's what they're going for now; so many times we've heard how they will be trying to blur those lines between good and evil.

while i agree that Hitler and the Nazis are utterly evil, there are certainly those who hold them in high regards, as shown in recent right wing movements across the western world. it doesn't make them right, but in their heads, they are doing the "right" thing.

at this point in time this trilogy has given us little to help see Kylo as a relatable character. he's committed patricide and murder, and is complicit to genocide and large scale destruction; i'm curious to see how they start developing him moving forward because they have an uphill battle ahead of them if my guesses are correct!

 

Evil being redeemed and and anti-hero are very different.

 

Imagine you are related to Luke Skywalker, and you know the potential power you had to change the world around you. Imagine seeing chaos and suffering around the Galaxy. Imagine your mom finally gives in and sends you to go train with your uncle, and instead of finding out how to help stop the suffering your training compels you to not concern yourself with them and to instead follow the practices of an antiquated theology that warns about doing the (sometimes violent) things that need to be done to stop galactic suffering.

Now clearly Kylo has gone too far, manipulated by Snoke. But I can see a way to make what he is doing appears correct, or at least partially understandable. Maybe his plan is to over throw Snoke, and fails in his mission because he has compassion for Rey.