Let's talk about the Elephant in the room here....

I'll try my hand at it, first and foremost, Star Wars is about heroes: monomyth, the hero's journey, the Jedi, the Rebels, and even the cute droids... I believe that the reason Andor did not feel like Star Wars was because the characters are stilted in the grey, which for some casual or general fans seem boring.

Mando can be considered a grey character; however, his love for Grogu makes him out to be a rather heroic father figure.

Star Wars is also about family. Andor is about a regime which most casual fans care nothing for.

That doesn't mean that Andor isn't good, that's purely subjective.

Those that don't care for Andor, doesn't necessarily mean that they lack intelligence, again its a matter of subjectivity.

The person I spoke to that did not care for Andor is a union delegate at my job. I would consider him intelligent while some would not... hehe.

The other individual is well read, and he also considered Andor to be boring.

Andor is a part of Star Wars, it may not necessarily be a part a Star Wars one may enjoy, it may not feel like Star Wars to some, but in the end, it is Star Wars.

I've watched the entire Andor series several times, and enjoyed it, every time, even though there are no Jedi... hehe.

I've also enjoyed reading the Alphabet Squadron series of books which also has no Jedi and feels like Andor. Alexander Freed gave the book a Tony Gilroy feel, which series was released first, I can't recall at present time.... its a great series with a ton of grey characters...

In the end, Star Wars is about evil regimes, grey characters, heroes, Jedi, droids, space ships... or whatever one may like to add.

 

Ok. So here we go.

For me, the statement "it doesn't feel like Star Wars" has always been somewhat contrived. First of all, IT IS STAR WARS. What sort of silly criticism is that? "These tacos don't taste like tacos" But you call them tacos. You got them at a taco stand. The menu said "TACO". Should every taco that you eat taste exactly the same? If you said yes, then find your ideal taco and forsake all other tacos. Don't keep going to that other taco place and keep complaining that their tacos don't taste like tacos! Enough taco talk.

Andor is Star Wars. No debate there. Saying that it doesn't feel like Star Wars is a valid opinion and statement. It is not a valid criticism. The Galaxy is enormous. The Jedi and The Force are treated as fairytales and mythology from the very beginning. The Skywalker Saga is a story centered around a small few that are connected to the reality of that mythology, but there are billions of people who, especially after the Clone Wars, have never encountered or even heard of the Force or the Jedi. They have no idea who Darth Vader is, or have ever seen a Stormtrooper. That's the whole point of Andor. The Empire wasn't Vader and his Stormtroopers chasing the Millennium Falcon. They were greedy, self-serving fascists. Backstabbing bureaucrats, corporate sycophants, and corrupt cops. They seized power and wealth by genocide, oppression and occupation committed upon simple, hard-working people without the means to defend themselves or fight back. This is what brought about Rebellion. The Rebel Alliance. The good guys in the OT. Andor shows their roots. We are watching the advent of the original Star Wars heroes. Andor is to the Rebellion what the PT was to the Empire.
How that doesn't feel like Star Wars is beyond me.

All that being said, I do fully realize that Andor is a very grim and bleak story and that isn't everyone's cup of tea. It is complicated and it definitely requires the viewer to pay attention to the details or get lost in some of the minutiae. It's way more like a Breaking Bad or even Lost than The Mandalorian as far as the style of storytelling. I'm very anxious for The Acolyte, because I feel like it is going to have a very similar style and feel, yet it is apparently nothing but Jedi and lightsabers. I'm curious how it will be received in contrast to Andor simply based on subject matter.

 

I believe the answer to the "it doesn't feel like SW" reaction of some fans is simply because of Andor's narrative style. An adult political drama is not everyone's cup of tea regardless of the setting or the circumstances.

Someone could no doubt make an intriguing drama featuring Harrison Ford as Indiana Jones. But a story about him without any "Perils of Pauline"-style pratfalls and escapes won't 'feel' like Raiders of the Lost Ark to a lot of people regardless of how compelling the story might be or the accuracy of Ford's portrayal.

 

For me, this is what makes Star Wars (a given production), Star Wars (an emotional experience of a type of movie style):
1) Experimental, unconventional, in its approach to movie (show) making.
2) Governed by the question of will they or won't they, rather than can they or can't they? (moral jeopardy, not obstacle jeopardy).
3) Is in some manner governed by the art theory of collage filmmaking.
4) Compelled by the Aristotelian theory of "tragedy".
5) Obsessed with concern over the plight of society and trying like a madman to convey those concerns through the medium of movie (or show).

That is, does it follow the craft tenets Lucas is interested in as an artist?

If yes, then it feels like Star Wars. If no, then it doesn't.
It can toss in as much aesthetic or topical sauce and spice as it wants to, but if it doesn't do these things it won't taste like fusion food that I know Star Wars to be.

I'm also not upset about Star Wars as a brand no longer doing all of these things.
Doing this is absolutely exhausting. I know from personal experience. I just did it (as part of my job). The brand can move on and do whatever it wants. There's nowhere written in any contract that Star Wars productions need to be right by Jayson.

Oh, and the first words out of my mouth upon completing my current screenplay following these tenets was, "I don't want to do this ever again." I know I will eventually want to, but that's how exhausting it is.

Cheers,
Jayson

 

Yeah, it really comes down to that.

For myself, I absolutely LOVED Andor. It is, by far, my favorite thing that Disney Plus has produced so far. That being said, Andor will never make my list of favorite Star Wars projects. Not because it isn’t terrific. But because, yeah, it didn’t really FEEL like Star Wars to me. It was a dystopian science-fiction. Plain and simple. If you stripped out all the proper noun specificity, it was a story that easily could have been adapted from an old Harlan Ellison book.

Fundamentally, Andor is not ‘Space Fantasy’. Star Wars, at its core, is a fairy tale set in a faraway land that communicates lessons in morality through arch magical allegory. It has practical futuristic elements, but those really only exist as a byproduct of the interstellar setting. It’s about a spirituality that represents the indelible interconnection between everyone and how that bond can both help and harm. How the individual and its society are interdependent at a nearly sacred level. How the ethical choices we make can shape that reality.

Basically, Andor is secular Star Wars. But what makes Star Wars so ineffable amongst its peers is that spiritual layer of the Force and what it represents. Without that, you’re basically watching The Hunger Games. That’s no intended slight. It’s just not "Star Wars". Well, not to me

 

That's an interesting point of view. I think I've stated before, but full disclosure, I have always appreciated your thoughts and you have more than once triggered me to see something differently. On a couple of your comments, firstly, I don't know if I agree with the "thin Star Wars skin". I see it as despite Tony G's lack of knowledge re: SW lore, he did have people that put great detail into the sets, costumes, props, etc... to make everything fit into the GFFA. One of the big complaints has to do with a lack of aliens and SW non-human species. But it has been clarified by several of the creative crew, that was an intentional device to set a specific tone and feel. So, I'm not so much arguing against your point as rationalizing that this aspect wasn't a flaw or shortcoming, but a creative decision. Does that change anything? Maybe, maybe not.

Secondly regarding the lack of "Hope". I never really thought about that, and I do like the idea that all of SW needs Hope as a common idea. I think Andor's early apparent lack of hope is the point they wanted to convey and that's only because by the end of season 1, Hope is all that Cassian and his people have. We realize that Hope is Luthen's sole purpose. The Empire doesn't understand or recognize Hope. An oppressor doesn't need Hope, and as we all know, Hope is the thing that eventually destroys the Empire. So while it isn't necessarily in the actual story arcs of Andor, Hope truly is the undercurrent that drives the story.

Otherwise, I do truly get it that Andor isn't your cup of tea. Furthermore, I appreciate that you can put the reasons for your feelings into tangible and rational thoughts that can be discussed. The things that cause you to dislike Andor, are mostly the reasons that I love Andor, and that is why I love where the SW Universe is going. There is room for all types of stories and all types of fans.

 

I feel the ‘prison break’ story arc was expressly about hope’s perseverance in the face of insurmountable despair. It operates as a microcosm for the Rebellion as a whole and the nature of the individual’s thirst for freedom from an oppressive system. The prisoners are given no reason to ever think salvation is attainable. But instead of that apparent reality crippling them into a disconnected state of submission, it unifies them together into a revolutionary force bent on ‘liberty or death’.

Those two episodes together, I feel, form the thesis statement for the series. Andor is ALL about hope. But it never pretends that hopelessness doesn’t exist. That people don’t have valid reason to give up an accept the world as it is. But it’s a ‘steel man’ argument - the opposite of a ‘straw man’. It makes the case for the opposing viewpoint as convincingly as it possibly can, only to then turn around and tear it all right down to the floor. Yes, we have every right to despair . . . but we’re not going to, are we? That’s ‘hope’ personified.

 

I can think of a good number of sci-fi sagas with a similar premise, especially "Babylon 5" and "The Expanse". Some people - including me - simply believe that "Andor" felt more like a sci-fi series made for the Syfy Channel than the Star Wars saga. It's a feeling we have experienced, while watching the show. You're trying to be logical about this and it doesn't work, because we're talking about entertainment and arts here, not a math problem.

Was "Revenge of the Sith" supposed to bring joy to viewers? At least it felt like a Star Wars production to me.

 

Yes, thank you, you both put it into words better what I was trying to say... Andor uses the sense of hopelessness to increase the value of Hope as it starts to build as a theme.

Yes! And BTW, I do not want everything going forward to feel like Andor. I love the aesthetic difference in The Mandalorian. It has it's own feel as well, and in many ways it looks and feels very different from other SW. There is one thing about Andor that I do think all other SW shows could benefit from, and that is the almost excessive attention to detail. Whether it's in the sets and props or in the writing. Again, no legit complaints about what Favreau & Co are doing, but some little things in Andor seemed to really boost the realism and in turn, pushed the actors to truly deliver some outstanding performances. They had a mantra of "everything has to have purpose and meaning" and that applied to everything from dialogue to props. An example of that given by Diego was they were shooting a scene in Maarva's house and he starts improvising basically fidgeting in the kitchen. He mentions that he wants to open a cabinet and take out a coffee cup or something... He opened the cabinet and there was already cups and dishes inside. No reason to have props there, in a closed cabinet, except for the attention to detail. Several of the actors commented on such details and how they became immersed in the scenes because of the little things. The flashbacks to Cassian's childhood on Kenari, the children were speaking a language that is never subtitled, but they actually learned lines in the Kenari language simply for the authenticity. All of that extra effort was done expressly to show why Cassian had a unique accent.

 

No laz0r swords and wizards.

 

But this is nothing new to me. I've seen similar in other sci-fi/fantasy productions, including other Star Wars productions. It's one thing to admire how this was used in "Andor", but it's not new to me. Not really. Hell, the prison sequence reminded me of the 1997 movie, "Face/Off".

 

Dee is saying all Arts and Entertainment is subjective --- unless, of course, you happen to agree with her.

 

Ok, well, not to let all the energy get sucked out of the room amid a good discussion...

What about the influence of Andor on other shows/movies going forward? Is there an appetite for grittier storytelling? What about more stories without Force and Jedi? I know at one point, the rumor was that Taika's movie would be totally removed from any known characters and events. What is needed for future projects to "feel" like Star Wars without using any familiar devices?