SPECULATION Luke, Yoda and the Gray Jedi of the Old Republic!

Think of the force as an actual layer of reality. One that is within, through and binding all living things. Any use of the dark side effects things and left unchecked can be unbalancing on that metaphysical level. Actions without the force while not tapping into the force effect the force because of the force's connection to all living things. Snuff out a life and that I imagine that would be felt within the force. Hence Obi can sense the destruction of Alderaan.

 

It's from bonus feature documentary from one the older dvd sets I believe.

 

I'm not saying only Sith cause imbalance - just that they're very good at creating imbalance because of their power to influence the state of the galaxy.

If people using the dark side caused imbalance then why was it that the force only became unbalanced when the Sith revealed themselves and started the clone wars? How did Anakin bring balance whilst dark siders remained and used the dark side (which they did)?

The answer is that the balance has nothing at all to do with the existence of dark siders and then using the dark side but rather the state of the galaxy. When there is evil everywhere, war, greed etc, then the force becomes unbalanced. When dark is empowered over light.

The Force is created by all living things. It's connects all living things. Thus everyone has an impact on the balance.

The Sith were just a very powerful order that were able to oppress the galaxy. Thus caused imbalance. Anyone can do that. But it's easier when you wield the dark side.

 

Was Qui-Gon the fIrst Jedi to transend death? He knew quite a bit of stuff and I wonder if somehow he knew how to create life as well. Far-fetched idea but Rey kinda resembles him.

 

So I've perused these last pages and won't reply to anything in particular.

It's simply my believe that from 2012 until now (with some hints in the Clone Wars), that yes, the Story Group is greatly expanding the concept of the Force.
If you like it or not, the evidence is all over the place.

To me (as in personal opinion, not attacking anyone who disagrees), this means that The Last Jedi and Episode IX will elaborate on this, in some universe shattering ways. I think after this sequel trilogy has ended, our concept of the Force will be much more profound. A bigger understanding, to paraphrase one line from the last trailer.

Now, what this "new way" is, nobody knows right now. Nobody except TPTB working on these movies right now. So asking for a definite answer, as of this moment, that's impossible (Luke quote not intended).
That's why it's called speculating. Everything right now is theory - which can be backed up by exisiting, canon lore - and we don't have an answer until after TLJ is released and even then it might not be clear. That being said, there are some great ideas on this board.

Sorry perhaps for being Captain Obvious, I saw some heated (but civil) discussions and felt the need to reply.

Mtfbwy*

*whatever concept of the Force that is

 

Yeah I hope the people of this real world learn something when all is revealed. No longer should we continue a destiny to war and destruction. I see the light for generations to come.

 

The Mortis Arc perfectly illustrated how the balance works - it's just people misinterpretated it. The daughter and brother represented good and evil, light and dark - not Jedi and Sith. The father represented "the jedi" or what Anakin should've been, by maintaining the equality between light and dark. Whenever the brother tried to dominate, the father would take him down.

This is the role of the Jedi. They have to maintain the balance of good and evil. But when the Sith and such like are about they are very good at disrupting this balance - hence why Lucas says in the RotS opening crawl: "evil is everywhere". The clone wars, designed by the Sith, empowered evil across the galaxy and that is what caused imbalance.

Now the problem with the PT Jedi was that they were not focused upon the living force and too attached to the Republic and senate. In this respect, yes they were "grey" - not by choice, but because of their position and dogma. Qui Gon represented how the Jedi should be and Yoda recognises this at the end of Rots and adopts the Jedi accordingly for Luke to rebuild.

But the Jedi are still based upon he precepts of the light that enable it to maintain balance. A Jedi cannot serve the will of the force, which desires balance, by being grey. This would simply mean that the greed that they allow to fester will prevent them from doing their duty. By staying firmly in the light they can always act selflessly and combat those that wield the dark side.

 

That's more to do with the fact that it's far less likely for "good to dominate". Doing good is harder to come by than doing evil. The balance as I see it is always on a fine line but is tipped over when powerful evil doers spread "evil everywhere". In terms of "more light" causing imbalance, the reason could very well be that, if we imagine a universe with no evil, then essentially it'd be apathetic. There would be no compassion. Would love exist without hate? I'm not so sure. And another Lucas quote sort of backs that up:

The midi-chlorians have brought Anakin into being as 'the chosen one' who brings balance to the universe. The mystery around that theory is that we don't yet know whether the chosen one is a good or a bad person. He is to bring balance to the Force; but at this point, we don't know what side of the Force needs to be balanced out.

I think this is what the bigger picture is all about. This is what makes the job of the Jedi very difficult. This is what links to "resolving the grey". The Jedi have to follow the will of the Force. Essentially they have to maintain the natural balance. This balance is what enables life to grow but also for both love and hate to exist. Working out how to maintain this balance is difficult as sometimes it means sacrificing that which is important. But what it requires is for the Jedi to absolutely remain in the light as to resolve the grey one has to be selfless. And if one allows the Dark Side to creep in then serving the Force will not always be the priority.

I think the idea of good and evil needing to be balanced makes perfect sense. I don't think "anyone designed such a universe" but that it simply came to be this way. It is simply the natural order of things - it is the environment in which life can be created, grow, die and be reborn.

Lucas is pretty clear:

"As evil begins to take over, it pushes the Force out of balance".

Here he shows that it is evil taking over, not just existing, that creates imbalance.

And here:

If good and evil are mixed things become blurred - there is nothing between good and evil, everything is grey. In each of us we have balanced these emotions, and in the Star Wars saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything. It is dangerous to lose this. In The Phantom Menace one of the Jedi Council already knows the balance of The Force is starting to slip, and will slip further. It is obvious to this person that The Sith are going to destroy this balance. On the other hand a prediction which is referred to states someone will replace the balance in the future. At the right time a balance may again be created, but presently it is being eroded by dark forces. All of this shall be explained in Episode 2, so I can't say any more!
- CUT interview 09/07/99?

...Lucas shows that the balance begins to slip during the events of TPM. If imbalance was caused by people using the Dark Side in any way at all, then the balance would've started to slip well before this point. This also of course rules out the idea that the Sith or whomever causes imbalance by simply existing. What it shows is that the delicate balance between good and evil is now slipping because the Sith's plan to take over and spread evil everywhere has hit full steam. When the Clone Wars are raging, as Lucas says, "evil is everywhere". We must've forget that the Empire and FO are as much Dark Side forces as the Sith were.

This is why, as Lor San Tekka points out, there can be no balance without the Jedi. They are the people that maintain this balance - sometimes by destroying those that wield the Dark Side or sometimes by being passive. This is what Mortis represents. The Jedi have to ensure that light and dark exist in balance so that the natural order of the universe continues.

 

But as I have said, the Jedi role is to destroy those who spread great evil - as we see in the real world with terrorism etc. But we really have to define what good and evil is before we say that most people are good. I'm talking about good being compassion and love and evil being greed and hate (for example). That is where the balance lies. And for most people this balance is important. It's not such a bad thing for people to feel both greed and compassion to some extent. And so what I am saying is that the gffa consists of good and bad people but also largely people who have both good and evil within them. On balance there will be equal amounts of greed and compassion taking place. Each providing meaning to the other. But when evil despots or terrorists or Sith are around they invariably spread terrible evil everywhere. And this is the difference and this is what causes imbalance.

What makes the Jedi stand out and be the people capable of maintaining balance, is that they live firmly in the light so they can fully follow the will of the force and bring balance.

 

Here Lucas talks about compassion vs greed and the balance between these two things within us. I think this perfectly demonstrates how for the average Joe and by extension, the entire world, balance is vital. It's not about eradicating evil. It's about keeping it in check. It's a part of you but you try to act compassionately. The metaphor for this on a grander scale is that universe is in balance when good and evil are on equal terms. What what is the balance specifically? This I am not so sure about. It's likely impossible to truly know. And this is where the Jedi come in. They can hear the will of the Force and this guides them. This tells them when the Force is in balance. To some it may not sit well that the Force could be imbalanced if there was too much light. But I don't think that is about there being too much compassion. I think "too much light" is about there "not being enough dark", for without the dark can there be compassion? Without love can there be hate?

The other point I'd make is that we are told that "life creates the Force". How does this occur though? Is it our actions that create this energy or does it also come down to our thoughts? I have a feeling it could be the latter as well. With that being the case, the actions of the majority of beings across the galaxy could at one stage be wholly compassionate. But they'd all still have the dark within them. They'd still have dark thoughts. And this could all be part of the balance. Furthermore, is balance just about the thoughts and actions of sentient or intelligent life? Should the pain and suffering of our animal friends not be considered a part of this? And what of natural disasters that cause mass suffering - would that not empower the negative emotions within us that are all part of the Dark Side? Just considering life itself, birth is celebrated but death is mourned. There is always positive and negative.

I think this could all be part of the discussion that Luke has about "it [Rey's understanding of the Force/balance] is so much bigger". The balance isn't just about those that wield the dark side or the light. It's not just about the on-going conflict between the dark side and the light side. So much more has to be considered. You have to accept that the dark side exists. It's not about eradicating it. It's about accepting it exists within you and others. But that you should love yourself and love others in spite of that.

Lucas felt that at one point during the training Ben should explain to Luke that he should use his powers with moderation. If he uses too much of the Force, it will start using him. For example, to lift objects Luke has to use the bad side of the Force, so if he overuses this power, the dark side will start taking him over as it did with Vader. When Luke fights, he has to use the dark side, but he is also using the good side for protection."
-—Laurent Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays, 1997

Now, I am not sure about how much of that concept survived but I think there is some truth in it. I think this idea links into how a Jedi maintains balance. Now I don't think it is the case that a Jedi is using the Dark Side whenever they fight. But I think the problems start when they use their power without consulting the will of the Force - and this is what the PT Jedi did, I feel.

It's an on-going struggle. However, I don't believe the light side can ever fully triumph as the light cannot exist without the dark. The brighter the light, the greater the shadow. However, the problem with the Dark Side is that it is destructive. And so left unchecked, it will not only take over but it will destroy everything - including itself. And that is the danger. And that is why it could be said that the "Force favours the light" in some way. For the light enables one to do what is right and works with nature, where as the dark is greedy and unnatural. It destroys harmony.

 

You just posted some Lucas quotes a few posts up! What he says is perfectly relevant. If it contradicted what we saw in the films, then yes, there would be an issue. But it doesn't. Again, I ask, if the balance is disrupted by people using the Dark Side (which is your point of view), then why how is it ever balanced? There are other Force groups other than the Sith. What's more, we are told and shown how the balance begins to slip during the events of TPM. With this being the case, the Sith have existed and used the Dark Side for a millennia, and so why wasn't the imbalance occurring then?

There is absolutely no evidence at all that Disney are going in a different direction. Not only would Lucas have put it in the contract that they cannot change the story of his films but TFA explicitly shows that they are staying on message. Tekka talks about there being no chance of balance without the Jedi. Maz Kanata speaks of fighting against the evil of the Dark Side, be it the Sith, the Empire or the FO. Snoke worries about the last Jedi returning and the new Jedi rising.

The brightest lights casts the darkest shadow, is a quote from The Journal of the Whills. It's a quote brought up time and time again and has done so again recently. But essentially, the dark and the light operate in the same way. The problem with the Dark Side is that it is destructive and unchecked could destroy everything, including itself. Like a cancer.

And the point really is that without darkness, would you be able to recognise the light? Would the light have meaning?

Yes - narratively, the story is being fleshed out but it is continuing in the narrative direction that Lucas created. PT Jedi were cut off from the living Force and got mixed up in the "grey". The OT Jedi recognised this and aligned themselves with the living Force and helped in the clear fight between good and evil in the OT. And now in the ST the Jedi will have to continue this growth - working out not only what the fight is but how best to fight it consistently without everything going to hell again.

I don't see The Force as light but rather as being a sum of all things. It is simply natural. And it consists of light and dark and everything in between:

Q: The morality aspect of the stories, that is clearly something that is important to you.
Well yeah, the films are about good and evil and this new series of three films is more about the struggle of good and evil within ourselves.
- Barry Norman's Film Night 07/99

If good and evil are mixed things become blurred - there is nothing between good and evil, everything is grey. In each of us we have balanced these emotions, and in the Star Wars saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything. It is dangerous to lose this. In The Phantom Menace one of the Jedi Council already knows the balance of The Force is starting to slip, and will slip further. It is obvious to this person that The Sith are going to destroy this balance. On the other hand a prediction which is referred to states someone will replace the balance in the future. At the right time a balance may again be created, but presently it is being eroded by dark forces. All of this shall be explained in Episode 2, so I can't say any more!
- CUT interview 09/07/99?

The film is ultimately about the dark side and the light side, and those sides are designed around compassion and greed. The issue of greed, of getting things and owning things and having things and not being able to let go of things, is the opposite of compassion - of not thinking of yourself all the time. These are the two sides - the good force and the bad force. They're the simplest parts of a complex cosmic construction.
- Time interview (Bill Moyers) 03/05/99

So for me, you have a natural energy source - the Force. This consists of good and evil, light and dark - and everything in between. When these two sides are balanced, so is the Force. The natural cycle of life continues. But when the Dark Side is empowered over light, this is disrupted and it requires a powerful group like the Jedi who can hear the will of the Force (and are willing to act on it) to restore the balance. Only the Jedi can do this (consistently) because they only use the light. A group that harbours the light and the dark cannot defeat the Dark Side. You can only do this with complete selflessness and compassion.

 

I can't answer for @master_shaitan but I would suggest that most of those don't fall outside of Lucas orthodoxy. In TCW they had no issue with Shaman of tge Whils, Mortis Arc, prophets on the planet Jar Jar and Mace go to in season 6, and the night sisters. There are was of adding information with out overwriting the existing view. Also additional sects in the larger idea of the Force may not always be viewed equal.

 

I remember a discussion we had some weeks ago (somewhere on this thread), where I tried to explain the same thing. From the tip of my hat it was about balance within oneself. Forgive me for not knowing all the specifics right now.
But the above is exactly what I meant. I underscored ánd put it in italics in the above quote, just to make sure

We also discussed this "new way" of being a Jedi/ Force user. You asked about what specifics, well I think the above gives you that answer.

I think you highlighted the wrong part of that quote. Because, again, the last part talked about the struggle within ourselves.
Yes, the movies are about good and evil, because at the end of the day a movie has to be entertaining for everyone in the audience, so one has to make use of (for a lack of a better word: ) simple concepts.

However, as talked above, the Story Group already has introduced many new ways of being Force sensitive. This, I think, is done not only to expand the Star Wars universe (hence the concept Expanded Universe..), but also to ease the audience (and us die-hard fans in particular), to be open to the future of the SW saga in relation to the Force.

To quote Luke in the trailer "it's so much bigger".

I think TLJ will clear up many things as to what this entails.