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Lukes Inaction

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Ben-K-OB1, Nov 13, 2017.

  1. Ben-K-OB1

    Ben-K-OB1 Rebel General

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    I have been thinking and it seems to me that its Luke's inaction that has caused all the problems with Kylo and potentially Rey.
    • Luke never formally trained Ben he just took on a mentor role because he felt he is was not ready to train a student. (I think Luke's The Academy only housed the Church of The Force and Luke was trying to find more knowledge about the Jedi in an effort to prepare to train students. This is why BEN/Kylo was able to kill all the occupants with the help of the Knights of Ren. He wasn't fighting any Jedi. (I know that Kylo is known as the Jedi Killer but it would make sense that people would think there were Jedi at the academy, not really knowing what was actually going on there. They are releasing a book about Legends of Luke Skywalker which show that people think very exaggerated things about Luke and the Jedi. It would also make sense for Kylo to not want to correct people when they call him Jedi Killer.)
      • Snoke was able to pull Ben away from Luke by promising to train him. Think of the Karate Kid 3 when Miyagi refuses to train Daniel to fight in the tournament and he starts training with Terry Silver. This takes Daniel down a bit of a darker path in his training until he realizes what's going on and is saved and then trained by Miyagi. I think it was a similar situation with Luke and Ben. Luke was not training Ben he was just mentoring him and refusing to train him because he thought he was not ready to train students. Snoke came along and tells Ben he will train him and show him how to unlock his full power.
      • Through the course of training Snoke has been indoctrinating Ben/Kylo. Convincing him his grandfather was not bad but was making tough choices and sacrificing himself to bring peace to the galaxy, etc.
    • Luke refuses to train Rey
      • Luke will again not train the force sensitive person who comes to him for guidance
      • Rey's parents were nobody. Her parents went to Luke and wanted him to take her and train her but he refused because he was not ready to train students
      • Her parents left her on Jakku because they were afraid she would hurt them or hurt somebody around them
    Lukes inaction and fear caused Ben to fall. He thought he could keep Ben and his power in check until he felt he was ready to train him but he was wrong. Now he doesn't want to train Rey because of his failure with Ben. I think ultimately this will drive Rey to join with Kylo so that she can find her place in the force. Snoke will turn Rey in a similar way that he did Kylp but in the process Kylo (who has been torn between the light and the dark) and will leave and realize he has made a terrible mistake and will rejoin Luke on Ach-To. Luke will finally realize he was wrong, he has always been wrong in his views of teaching and will finally take on an apprentice in Ben/Kylo. This continuing the Skywalker ling and making it so that he is no longer the last Jedi.
     
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  2. Bluemilk

    Bluemilk I AM the Senate

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    Well technically there wasn't an Academy according to Pablo Hidalgo, so you may be right about the Church of the Force possibly

    I don't think it was Luke's fault Ben fell, per se, but I do think Luke, Leia and Han kind of did push him that way inadvertently. If we think about it Luke, Han and Leia all felt responsible and to me the biggest revelation is when Ben says"Your son is gone. He was weak and foolish like his father." Now what that exactly means I'm not sure, but Ben feels weak and foolish. He doesn't blame Luke, nor Leia in this instance just that Ben was like Han and blames him. As Kylo he's stronger he believes.

    As for Snoke he's been pulling Ben away since before he was born. Maybe Luke's attention was more on other things. I'd like to know more about their relationship.

    Rey isn't going to turn. Be tested? Sure. It would be a shame to build up a character such as Rey who has been pushed as kind of role model to girls to just do a 360 in teh second movie and she turns ot the dark side. Wouldn't even make sense. It wouldn't do much for Luke either in that regard.
     
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  3. Ben-K-OB1

    Ben-K-OB1 Rebel General

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    I don't think it was Luke's fault 100% that Ben fell but I think his relationship with Ben was the straw that broke the camels back. I agree that Leia, Han, and Luke all shared the responsibility of his turn though.

    I want to know more about Snoke and Bens relationship so bad! It is strongly suggested in Bloodlines that he is pulling at Ben even while he is in Leia's womb. So he has clearly had his eye on Ben for a very long time.

    With Rey maybe Lukes inaction does not drive her completely to the dark side but just simply drives her away. I have also been throwing around the idea that Rey does not go to the dark side but that she and Ben/Kylo go off on their own together, both rebelling against their "teachers". It would make sense for Rey to do this if Luke is refusing to teach her and is the cause of her losing her parents and would make sense if Ben/Kylo finally realizes he is just being used by Snoke for them to both leave their "teachers".
    The hole is that I am not sure what they would be trying to accomplish by doing this.
     
  4. Jedi MD

    Jedi MD Jedi Commander

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    I think it is going to turn out that Luke’s refusal to initially train Rey is because of his fear of failing again. I think we will see (Han even referenced it in TFA) that Luke was training new Jedi and that Ben/Kylo destroyed it.

    As far as Pablo’s quote about there not being an Academy, he was talking about the term. Nowhere in Canon is there a Jedi Academy. Ben destroyed Luke’s Jedi Temple. Just like the place where all the younglings and padawans on Coruscant was called the Jedi Temple. In Canon, the places Jedi go to seek knowledge and training is a temple, not an academy.
     
  5. Ben-K-OB1

    Ben-K-OB1 Rebel General

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    There is also no mention in canon that says he was training students either. There is a reference in Bloodlines where it mentions Luke and his followers or acolytes or something like that, can't remember the exact word right now but I remember thinking that it was interesting that they didn't say, students.
     
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  6. Jedi MD

    Jedi MD Jedi Commander

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    Han tells Rey and Finn “He was training a new generation of Jedi”
     
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  7. Ben-K-OB1

    Ben-K-OB1 Rebel General

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    He also says that "one boy, an apprentice, destroyed it all." Not that he killed all the other apprentices.
     
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  8. Amalgam

    Amalgam Rebelscum

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    I don't believe it is said anywhere that Kylo killed anyone, & to me, Han's statement is less of a physical destruction & more of "he is the reason it fell apart."
     
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  9. Ben-K-OB1

    Ben-K-OB1 Rebel General

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    Agree
     
  10. Snazel

    Snazel Force Sensitive

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    Luke's hesitance and fear is the mirror opposite of his feelings in Empire. Then, he was too eager, too confident and too sure of his righteous cause.

    I like this progression, it's what happens when you get old, you reflect upon your mistakes and you try to draw wisdom from them.

    The Jedi, in many ways, have much to atone for and Luke himself was probably too bold and arrogant in his alleged attempt to restore the Jedi.

    He's broken, it happens to old men, even our heroes and it sets the stage for a beautifully redemptive path, as is Luke's general arc, it's just this way instead of needing to show caution and care, he needs to remind himself the light in him is good and to accept that and help deliver Ben back from the brink.

    This is good writing. I love what they did with Han's story in TFA. They broke him too remember? He was broke, doing dangerous work with wretches and couldn't even get his beloved Falcon back. It's good writing to do this to our favorite characters.

    Luke was never a "super action" hero, his greatest strength and his power always came from his passive actions, by simply letting the Force guide him to the path.

    War does not make one great. And how can one ensure the war ends, if the light and the dark must always rise to create conflict? I truly believe this is at the core of Luke's struggle.

    Anyway I'm stoked, Luke is my favorite character, my favorite hero and I believe a truly unique American male hero in that he wins by refusing to fight and having faith in his own family. It's a beautiful story and to turn him into an aggressive super hero is the wrong move. He may need to kick ass by the end of the film, but Luke's hesitancy in TLJ makes for a very strong narrative arc for him.
     
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  11. Jedi MD

    Jedi MD Jedi Commander

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    Whether Kylo killed them or not, (the TFA Visual Dictionary implies that he did) Han’s quote tells us that Luke was training other Jedi besides just Ben.
     
  12. Ben-K-OB1

    Ben-K-OB1 Rebel General

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    Well said and I agree 100%!
     
  13. thrawn_lives

    thrawn_lives Clone Commander

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    Kylo has communed with the ghost of Vader, and he showed Kylo the power of the dark side. If Luke observed this, he will believe that not only did he fail to train Kylo, but that he has failed to redeem Vader. I'd think about quitting also.
     
  14. Ben-K-OB1

    Ben-K-OB1 Rebel General

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    Where is it said in canon that Kylo communicated with the ghost of Vader? As far as canon is concerned I thought only Jedi could become force ghosts. Becoming a force ghost only comes only through the release of self, compassion, and love. This was something that Anakin apparently learned from Obi-Wans ghost as his consciousness was leaving his body in Return of The Jedi.
     
  15. thrawn_lives

    thrawn_lives Clone Commander

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    I honestly don't understand why people don't latch onto this more. In the force awakens:

    Kylo: Forgive me. I feel it again... The pull to the light... Supreme Leader senses it. Show me again... The power of the darkness... And I'll let nothing stand in our way... Show me... Grandfather... and I will finish... what you started.
     
  16. Julius Fett

    Julius Fett Force Sensitive

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    I’m with @Jedi MD that Kylo Ren did kill Luke’s pupils/students (who were being trained to be Jedi), if just because of the contents of the Visual Dictionary.

    From page 26:

    Kylo Ren betrayed the other Jedi students studying with Master Luke Skywalker, and is responsible for their destruction. He has well earned the nickname “Jedi Killer”, whispered in the First Order ranks, as it was his deadly lightsaber that prevented the return of the Jedi Order.
     
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  17. Canadian Ronin

    Canadian Ronin Rebel General

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    Do we know he only "mentored" Ben and didn't teach him?

    Do we know Luke refuses to train Rey? It seems like he is relucent and doesn't do it instantly, but if we cut a trailer correctly you could make it look like Yoda refused to train Luke.
     
  18. McDiarmid

    McDiarmid Force Sensitive

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    Acording to "Legends of Luke Skywalker" newly released Canon book, which I recommend to buy since its is ,shortly ,a masterpiece, Luke was very active in search for knowledge over the years.

    Book gives tons of clues.

    Something truly terrible happened for him to be seemingy inactive now.

    [​IMG]
     
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  19. Julius Fett

    Julius Fett Force Sensitive

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    My guess is that this has something to do with his potential dependence on the Force spirits of Obi-Wan, Yoda and his father for direction with the Order.

    As we know from the visual dictionary, it was around the time of the destruction of Luke’s attempt at rebuilding the Order that the Cosmic Force became dormant, and reawakened during Rey’s and Finn’s journey in TFA, supposedly six years later.

    From the final arc of The Clone Wars, we know that the Force spirits exist between the realms of the Cosmic Force and the Living Force. However, with the Cosmic Force dormant, there aren’t two active realms for the Force spirits to exist between, and so they might have taken on a different form or plane of existence which meant that they could not commune with Luke.

    It’s a possible reason for Luke to go to a planet such as Ahch-To, supposedly home to the first Jedi Temple: it could be strong and pure in the Force similar to how Dagobah - and to a lesser extent, Mortis - was, and so might make communing with the Force spirits much easier.

    It’s possible that Luke depended on the Force spirits for direction with rebuilding the Jedi Order, and deemed the task impossible when they disappeared.

    Notice too how Kylo Ren kills Lor San Tekka - someone he had a past relationship with as Ben - in haste and without regret, yet has a much, much harder time despatching of his father. Yes, I know, it’s his father, but what we know about Ben Solo suggests that LST could have been in a father/uncle-type position (given the time frame for when he left with Luke). I think this might be because of conflict in interest that the presence of Anakin’s Force spirit furthered, as Kylo Ren is much more decisive earlier in the film, but seems to begin straying from his path around the time that he asks Vader’s ashen mask to show him the power of the Dark Side.
     
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  20. Ben-K-OB1

    Ben-K-OB1 Rebel General

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    So the living force is the energy that exists within all living things in the universe. All energy from the Living Force and all energy from things that have ever lived feeds into the Cosmic Force. This is how everything is bound together and it's within that cosmic force that Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin reside. The visual dictionary says the cosmic force went dormant after the Galactic Civil War. So sometime between ROTJ and TFA. So what caused it to go dormant and what caused it to awaken with Rey?

    I like your point about how maybe Luke left after the cosmic force went dormant and is seeking a reconnection with the cosmic force and the Force Ghosts for guidance. Also, are you implying the Anakin's force ghost was trying to bring Kylo/Ben back to the light after the awakening of the Cosmic Force through Rey?
    --- Double Post Merged, Nov 17, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 17, 2017 ---
    I think it is perfectly normal to talk to relics of people we idolize or loved. For example, I talk to my mother even though she passed away 3 years ago. To me, it would make sense that he is just talking to the relic of Vader and not Vaders force ghost. Plus we saw Anakin as a Force Ghost in ROTJ and he was good again, why would there be a Force Ghost of Vader?
     
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