Luke's Not Dead (or, Force Ghost Theory 101)

I sure did. I'm really not

 

"Strike me down and I will become more powerful then you could possibly imagine." I like to think that means something a lot more than talking, sitting on a log, bonking your head with a stick and redirecting a lightning strike.

 

Ive just realised that Luke Skywalker is basically the same as Patrick Swayze in Ghost. He’s not ‘alive’ and he’s not ‘dead’, he’s in that mid-world where he can see and hear everything that’s going on, and communicate with people, but it takes a bit of effort for him to physically interact with stuff. So maybe swayze was a Jedi knight

 

Hopefully there is not a pottery scene with Luke and Rey

 

My thoughts are that a Force Ghost was a physical manifestation for storytelling purposes of a Jedi's ability to communicate with another Jedi from the beyond. When Obi-Wan communicates with Luke during the Trench Run, we don't see a Force Ghost because such a thing would have been completely ridiculous. However, conceptually speaking, that communication is no different from the "sitting on a log" scene in E6.

The director shows the ghost for the sake of the audience, but it isn't really there for all to see. For example, at the end of E6, Luke was sensing the presence of Anakin/Yoda/Obi-Wan. We, the audience, can see their shimmering forms for storytelling purposes, but they were not something that any other character would have been able to see (or feel). A Force Ghost could not pop in and communicate with, for example, Chewbacca or R2-D2.

My internal canon rationalizes away the ridiculousness of Yoda's lightning bolt in E8 by saying the special properties of the sacred Jedi Temple allowed a unique interaction with the physical world that would not have been possible for Yoda to do on, say, Crait.

 

I heard that Spoke discarded it when he read the script.

 

He’s dead...from a certain point of view. The point of view of the living. You’re forgetting Yoda’s death scene.

“Master Yoda, you can’t die”
“ oh, strong am I with the force, but not that strong (physically). Twilight is upon me, and soon, night must fall. That is the way of things, the way of the force”.

The fact that strong force users can manifest themselves physically so the living can interact with them is simply for the purpose of influence. ObiWan only needed to speak to Luke to tell him to “run Luke run” or “use the force Luke”. His influence on that situation is what made him more powerful than we could possibly imagine. Yoda’s lightning strike wasn’t meant for anything but to influence Luke. Yoda could have jumped in front of Luke, grabbed the torch and set the tree on fire. He instead manipulated the force to cause a lightning strike....only to influence Luke. I don’t believe force ghosts can grab a lightsaber and duel. Nor do I believe they can physically grab a person and choke them or punch them. There has to be rules or everything falls apart.

None of this is saying Luke can’t display a powerful influence on Kylo or Rey. Just that he won’t be jumping in an Xwing or grabbing a lightsaber.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 19, 2018, Original Post Date: Sep 19, 2018 ---

Being a supernatural guide to the living is pretty powerful. Imagine having a Guardian Angel that you could hear if you’re about to get hit by a car. Helping someone avoid death is pretty freaking powerful.

 

I agree that being a supernatural guide is powerful. However, I think that with Yodas interaction with the physical world we are being teased that force ghosts are also powerful in the literal sense as well which is something I would love to see more off especially with the ending of TLJ.

 

No. Dear Lord, please no. Yoda's lightning bolt already opened up enough plot holes as it is.

 

What plot holes did it open?

 

i think we need to be open-minded here.

what Yoda did.. it actually happened. a dead Jedi master manifested in the living world in front of Luke and used force lightning.

then we see what Luke did just before he disappeared.. the greatest use of the force we've ever seen in the movies by a long long way. (my opinion of course)
he basically became a force ghost while he was still alive to interact and help the resistance on the other side of the galaxy.. and he didn't even know they were on Crait. he put Han's dice into Leia's hand, kissed her on the forehead and then strutted outside to p!ss off Kylo so that the resistance could escape.

He made Yoda's use of lightning look like a cheap parlor trick.

Where Luke is, and what he may still be capable of is a mystery to us all right now.. but i think it's folly to discard just about anything right now.

perhaps we should take him at his word..

 

I don't agree with the "Yoda Ghost used force-ligthning", and especially the "force" statement.
It wasn't "force-lightning", because 2 reasons :
1. force-lightnings should have sprung from his hands - remember Sidious when he force-lightens Yoda in EP3 and Luke in EP6, remember Dooku facing Anakin and ObiWan.
2. consequently, force-lightnings should NOT come from the sky and be accompanied by thunder storm and thunder is what actually happens in the movie. Open the sound and check :

What I see and hear is NOT FORCE lightnings, but it's rather a (earthly-like) STORM LIGHTNING with thunder.


Anyways...
My personal interpretation of Force Ghosts doesn't match with a "physical" presence. To me, a "force ghost" should better be compared to some kind of "auditive and/or visual hallucination".
- when Luke hears Ben from his X-Wing, it's (to me) more of an auditive hallucination than an actual sound wave crossing thru the cockpit
- when Luke is knocked out on Hoth snow and hears Ben say him to go to Dagobah, I think that is an hallucination - even if the movie wants to show us Luke moving the head and effectively seeing Ben in the clouds
- when ol'Ben and ol'Yoda and youn'Anakin pop pup at the end of RotJ in front of Luke, he's the only one to see them : when Leia comes to take him to the Ewoks's celebration, she doesen't see the 3 ghosts : and this is because Luke is experiencing an hallucination he is the only one to feel.

I cannot buy that a dead body can manifest itself physically after death. But I could buy that "the crude matter is dead, but the soul survives", and - I still don't know how - such a soul could reach a FS mind, and influence him, or have him feeling something, or hallucinate something, or deliver him a message.

 

Luke was alive when he did the Force projection. You can call it the most powerful Force ability ever created but that is irrelevant to the topic being discussed here. The subject of this thread is what Force Ghosts can and can't do.

As for what tricks Force Ghost Luke can do, that is something none of us can comment on beyond wild speculation.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 19, 2018, Original Post Date: Sep 19, 2018 ---

I will be happy to discuss E8's plot holes with you in the E8 forum.

 

The Jedi use the Force at the end of their natural lives to transport themselves to the World beyond Worlds where time does not exist. There, they never die but can use the force to manifest themselves into a chosen time in reality.

Ezra and Ahsoka went there Ezra by portal but returned physically because they were not at moment of death. Ezra saved Ashoka before her probable Death to Vader so she could return.

My Theory. Yoda never died, he entered the WBW at the moment of death as did OB1. Anakin may have been pulled there by someone since he was never trained to transfer there?

Luke is there now, but did he die or use that Teleport in that cave on the floor?

 

He died. Accept it people. Him being dead is much better than alive anyway. As a force ghost he can appear everywhere he wants without putting himself in great danger. He can teach Rey, but he can also haunt and troll Kylo Ren. It's perfect.

 

He summoned actual lighting not force lighting.

 

lightning is lightning isn't it?

it couldn't come from his fingertips because he didn't have fingertips lol. is force lightning a different thing from lightning? is force lightning called lightning because it looks like lightning.. or because it is lightning?

in summary.. ghost yoda uses the force to bring lightning. he forced the lightning.... force lightning

the point i was trying to make was very on-topic. Luke may well be capable of practically anything as a force ghost.

i think the whole subject goes back to 'the Will of the force' in my opinion. the force is capable of anything.. a force ghost is part of the force.. ergo capable of anything.

 

The topic is Force Ghosts. You talking about what Luke did when he was alive kinda really isn't on topic. Anything in reference to what Force Ghost Luke can do is just wild speculation at this point.

It's a fictional universe (and one with very little cohesion lately). Yes, he is "capable of anything" in the sense that if the producers decide Force Ghost Luke will do XYZ in E9, then it automatically becomes so. But again, at this point it is just wild guess speculating.

Except we know that's not true. Obi-Wan quite clearly tells Luke "if you choose to face Vader you will do it alone. I cannot interfere." This line of dialog does not exactly give specific details and rules regarding Force Ghosts, but we do learn there are indeed limits.