Official Episode VIII - Kylo Ren Discussion Thread

The message for kids is that good and evil isn't always as simple as what side you chose (in this case the light or the dark side of the force), but what you do with the talents you have been given. If a grey Jedi uses the dark side to force choke a threat to innocents, is that motivated from hate? No, it is motivated from love. The grey gives the force user the ability to use both sides for good. Bringing this back to Kylo, I think once he realizes that this ability to grow his power and become like his grandfather can be accomplished through the grey, he will be able to be redeemed and be Ben once again. Anakin was very grey in how he used the force, if Kylo sees that his grandfather's true nature was grey (through Rey or Anakin's force ghost or something), then he can be redeemed.

 

I believe that there was (and on some level still is) a Ben Solo and he was someone who Leia and Han love and "want him back". He was "weak and foolish like his father" lines suggest that he resembled Han, which is also confirmed by the fact that Han went away as he thought if Leia sees him around she will be reminded of their son. Of course, Han misunderstood Leia. She doesn't want to forget their son. She wants him back.

But we also know from the dialogue between Leia in the movie and the novelization (which is confirmed by JJ talking in the TFA documentary how that kid was targeted) that Snoke manipulated everything, "from the beginning" . Ben Solo was a target from the beginning. It seems that that beginning may have even started from before he was even born. It is a miracle that he managed somehow to stay in the Light for some many years and is still pulled to the Light.
So yes, I think Snoke's influence and manipulation is not unlike casting an evil spell.

It doesn't deny personal responsibility, but at the same time gives the picture of a kid who didn't stand a chance from the get go. He was specifically targeted, "chosen" manipulated, lied to by someone who promises to turn out to be very powerful and cunning. Ben needs to "wake up".

On some level Ben knows that something is not right, but he doesn't interpret his conflicted feelings correctly. I'm sure that Snoke knows that and that's why he set him a test to kill his father. A horrendous act that was meant to seal Kylo firmly to the dark side. We know this failed and possibly backfired and I believe may very well prove to be the straw that will break the camel's back...

Someone really needs to tell Ben that Anakin came back to the light and that the "sentiment" was not a moment of weakness, as Snoke is lying to him, but on the contrary, it was a moment of enormous strength. I think at this point Ben still doesn't know the true story of Anakin's redemption and when he realises it things should drastically change.
Something tells me that Luke never had a chance to tell Ben about what actually happened with Anakin and the information Ben/Kylo has at present is the deception story spun by Snoke.

 

The message has always been the same, told by Yoda in ESB :
“You will know (the good from the bad) when you are calm, at peace. Passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.”

 

That trailers and teasers were fantastic, even now if you go look at them they are superb. People who feel like they were misled about Finn misled themselves on the time frame not the destination. He is featured with the LS for a reason, it's going to be part of his future. A lot of people in both camps (pro and anti Finn) are going to look silly when the trilogy is over. Finn will be what one expects from a character of his billing and the critiques and analyses will look silly in the aftermath of it all.

 

well i love Finn and i don't think the trailer is misleading, but clearly some people banked a lot of expectation for TFA on them.
i just see trailers as that: advertisements to get you to buy the product.
people are so offended as if some sacred contract was broken in the process.
it's an ad. what did they expect? hahaha
but then again, i read comics. and i'm always surprised and delighted when the cover art is honest.
so i guess i have just been inured to this sort of silliness for a much much longer time.
i'm looking forward to what all these characters become and i hope they all surprise us.
except Kylo Ren. i don't need any surprised from him.
i just want him to go home.

 

I honestly think a more composed, less erratic and tantrum-y Kylo Ren will improve TLJ and the franchise immensely. Whether he gets redeemed or not (though given all the angst about repetition from the ST, you'd think that maybe there is no path to redemption for Kylo), I'd like to see him more like a predator on the prowl, confident to the nth degree, so that when he fights Rey again, you get the sense that there's actual danger. I know it would be difficult to do in the 1st installment of the Trilogy with a person that you KNOW is the main character, but I never felt a sense of angst for her safety. You knew she'd be fine. But facing off against a trained Kylo who is composed and uninjured in the 2nd installment, I feel like at least makes you contemplate will she make it out in one piece (which if she is a Skywalker as all the allusion points to is not a safe bet.)

We need to feel that (I think) to be even more emotionally invested in the movie.

 

oh i agree ~ he should be calmer, more focused on the surface in TLJ, but i still think he'll be done with Snoke before the end of it.
if he grows up enough to learn some discipline, he'll likely learn what he really needs as well.

people's angst about "repetition" is not going to sway the filmmakers one whit.
Kennedy all but just said this is not fanboys' vogueish dystopia.
this is going to be a story with a happy ending.
Han and Leia's family/legacy being pitched into an abyss is not a happy ending. hahahaha

and i also think Rey's going to get her three buns kicked (because, like you said, she can't beat him again or else there's no stakes here).
but--i think we may be surprised by the ultimate outcome of their next fight.

 

I don't know if she'll get her buns kicked honestly. I'd put money on her facing real adversity and failure during training and that if she fights Kylo she won't defeat him this time (just a question if she has to pay the Skywalker fee, and relinquish a hand)

But I do certainly agree with you that in this episode or the next, Kylo will be done with Snoke. Not just because Kylo realized he had been lied to when he killed his father and didn't get what he was led to believe he would, but because Kylo is a Sith fan boy. What are the odds he doesn't learn about the Rule of Two and (more importantly) the tradition of the student killing the master? Even if he doesn't ultimately declare himself a Sith, I think Snoke is currently honing a weapon which will ultimately bring about his demise. The sword he sharpens is the one with which he will be skewered. Kylo will be his undoing.

 

i honestly don't think anyone is going to lose a hand. nor do i think Sithiness is even going to factor into any of this.
absolutely, however, Snoke underestimates Ren's capacity to think (and act) for himself. hahaha

 

Yeah I think they've been clear about their desire to move on from the Sith concept. Still that have fashioned Kylo's character into someone who studies their lore, it's impossible for me to believe that he hasn't taken notice that in their traditions, student's graduate when they assassinate their masters. I think ultimately he at least makes an attempt on Snoke's life and if he doesn't succeed in Episode 8, he probably finds another way to accomplish in Episode 9

 

a lot might depend on how he's learned about the Sith and what Snoke has conveniently changed in his own teachings.
he's rewritten Imperial history for Ren, so he might have influenced his understanding of the Sith as well.
and we don't actually know Ren's allegiance/affiliation with Sith beyond historical curiosity anyway.
he could be more specifically interested in his grandfather and his grandfather's intentions than Vader's particular designation/affiliations.

the villains in the ST have an interesting love/contempt for the history of their own organizations, which they perceive as flawed failures.

 

You have a point there. Still if nothing else, once he kills Han (and you and I discussed this last year I think) we both agree he is confused because whatever sensation/feeling/relief he thought he was going to get after Han's demise was not there to be found. So yeah maybe he still accepts Snoke's training, but I think we witnessed the real seed of doubt being planted and watered right then. Yes he felt a tug to the light, but this was the first time (it appears) that he committed himself to the Dark Side and in so doing felt (what appeared to be) betrayal. I'm actually glad Finn isn't around (most likely) when Rey and Kylo next collide because I would think that Kylo will look to inflict suffering on somebody/anybody

 

i think that rage will be directed at Luke. he had no reason to hurt/kill his father except to fulfill Snoke's implied directive (and, arguably because Han was, you know, blowing up Starkiller). but he likely has more direct, more particularly fueled rage toward Luke--why else would he want the map rather than just destroy it as Snoke ordered?). i agree: now having killed his father he's going to blame everyone but himself in an effort to assuage the added pain and i see Luke taking the brunt of it at the outset.

fortunately, i think Luke can take it.

 

I'm hoping for TLJ we see a more focused and determined Kylo. He obviously feels that to truly commit to the Dark Side perhaps he has to kill all of his family- not just his father. Snoke probably told him that Vader's weakness was due to the fact that he felt love for his son, and that moment of weakness led to his 'downfall'. You have to imagine that Kylo's objective is to kill Luke and quite possibly Leia so he can be free of all the possible temptations to return to the light. To be better than Vader he has to do what Vader in the end couldn't bring himself to do- kill his own family. Vader was evil, but he also loved his wife, and the Emperor used that to drive him into rage and self hatred. He also couldn't bring himself to kill his son, even though he easily could have. If Kylo's aim is to surpass Vader and fulfill Vader's 'destiny' of becoming a pure dark side being then he probably feels he has to wipe out the Skywalker family once and for all, which is why he's so obsessed with Luke- Luke was the one that made Vader give up the dark side, so to Kylo, Luke is the greatest enemy. Luke killed Darth Vader and brought back Anakin Skywalker. That's why Luke HAS to die.

 

i'm gonna jump out of the box again here.. i was nodding along to your post and then i had a bit of a u-turn.

Now we don't know if Kylo was talking to himself, vader's mask or possibly directly to Anakin himself during TFA... but what is clear is the level of respect he has for his grandfather.
i'm not sure if i agree that Kylo is hunting Luke for his own anger-filled reasons, and that he plans to attack/kill him. I have no doubt that Kylo will find Luke, and i'm sure he will attack him.. but i don't think that doing so is his goal. Luke is his grandfather's son... and whilst this is a complete punt of a weak idea, it's possible that he will have a level of respect for Luke that makes Luke 'untouchable' in his mind. all conjecture without knowing if he knew everything about Anakin.

also... he may have killed his own father, but it was an important act to him... it was a monumental moment for him. he also made it clear to Rey during the interogation that Han would have disapointed her as a father... which, if you think about it directly says that he was let down by Han... ergo.. it mattered to him... it does matter to him.

Snoke may have always been pulling his strings, but the guy's head is completely full of family stuff.

I don't think that he wants to kill any Skywalkers... but i do think that the Skywalkers are all he thinks about.

it's my only happy ending for this saga. It's not everyone's happy ending... and i respect that.

#SaveBenSolo

 

i definitely question his motives for hunting down Luke.
since we have no idea what their relationship actually was, it's impossible to know yet.
someone else speculated that he wants to try to turn Luke.

i just feel, like you said, that this kid's head is a rat's nest of feelings about his family.
and a lot of those feelings (probably most of them right now) are negative: fear, disappointment, anger, vengeance, etc.
though i disagree with some who have suggested that he's out to hunt them all down (he clearly wasn't interested in going after his parents before).

the idea that Luke is special as Anakin's son is an interesting idea. Leia as his daughter too seems to have power--at least in the novel.
he'll address his father, but he avoids mention of his mother and even refuses to allow Snoke to broach the subject at one point.
they changed the line in the film to "we miss you", but it originally was "your mother misses you"--and that's what caused him to break on the bridge.

too hard to know for sure where they are going with all this exactly, but your happy ending is my happy ending.
anything else could only be a half-victory, and bittersweet at best.

#SaveBenSolo

 

Yes!



It is beyond doubt for me that the end goal is to save Ben Solo. I simply cannot imagine the possibility of a bleak and depressing tragedy as the outcome of Han and Leia's love story, nor can I imagine that the legacy of the previous aspirational story that was told in the previous 2 trilogies (i.e. the redemption of Anakin Skywalker) will have a bleak and negative outcome. Because, if you kill off Ben Solo you basically retroactively influence the message of the previous story. Vader's shadow will have poisoned the next generation, and his grandson would have fallen victim to that dark legacy, and not be guided by the light legacy.
As I noted in a previous post, Lor San Tekka's words in the beginning of TFA are crucially important - it is important where Ben/Kylo comes from; the truth that is his family is paramount.

In TFA Ben is obviously terribly confused about what the important meaning of it is and mistakenly (and being manipulated into believing by Snoke) believes that his legacy is with Vader, but it is not. His legacy is with Han and Leia, with Luke and with Anakin. That's what his legacy is and to add even more legacy into it, he has the name of another legendary hero, Obi-Wan. This is his true legacy and this trilogy is about Ben Solo regaining that legacy. Because that's his real destiny and not whatever it is that Snoke has poisoned his mind into believing it is.

There is really only one way that this trilogy ends up being a positive and satisfying story - and the message is optimistic and aspirational - Ben Solo must return to the light and come back home.

#SaveBenSolo

 

Interesting, I don't know if you all talked about this already but Adam Driver is definitely modulating his voice here. He sounds like what we are supposed to hear as Ben Solo for most of this discussion, but at the 0:53 mark, listen to how his voice and tone changes. It's montone in the way that Kylo Ren with the mask on often sounds like (just providing more evidence that Kylo wasn't just a name it was an alter ego that Ben saw as strong) Take a listen for yourself.

 

Woah. That's a great catch. You know when you separate the two, Ben and Kylo Ren, you really start to feel for him.


I wonder how they're going to tackle Ben Solo's back story. Are they going to show it Force-Backs with Rey? Or an actual flashback? Or is it going to come up in conversation?

I hated him for almost half a year. He killed my favourite SW character of all time. But now? After all that we know from the novels and the other canon, supplementary material? You gotta feel for the kid.

 

I think it'll mixture of conversation(s) and "flashback(s)". Maybe Rey is witnessing a vision of Ben's fall and then Luke has a conversation with her or it's the other way around.

IMO he is the best character ever. Okay, maybe I'm a little bit biased...