Official Episode VIII - Kylo Ren Discussion Thread

All these speculations about this topic pretty much shows what I don't like about JJ's way of filmmaking. Mystery box!

 

Yeah, and frankly I think JJ handled Kylo's introduction badly. I'd be more on-board with Kylo's character if just a few things had been done differently. But instead, I felt JJ was simultaneously telling us "Feel sorry for this guy! He'll see the light eventually!" and "He's an entitled ass who - look! - committed horrendous crimes in the past AND right in front of you! It's the opposite of what OT Luke did!" (Gratuitous? YES.)

I really don't think a director should send such conflicting messages. Imo there should have been a lot more ambiguity

Hopefully RJ will make the situation better somehow.

Man, imagine Kylo's story told in in a format with a lot more narrative space to explore the fall and redemption...!

 

i guess i don't feel all that conflicted. i hated Kylo Ren right up until that moment on the bridge when my heart just broke in a million pieces because we finally see who he really is: just a scared child who wants his father to help him but doesn't trust that he can (or will).

i think this is what JJ Abrams was going for, frankly. this assumption that this person is entitled and awful and completely thoughtless--and then this reversal that says: there's more here than meets the eyes. this is why i think we've still got revelations ahead.

i get that the "mystery box" is infuriating to some people, but i think it works okay for something like this: we know we'll get our answers over the course of the trilogy, and it gives us plenty to think about and talk about and consider while we're waiting.

what's better: a villain we can dismiss as evil outright? or one we actually think might be brought back from the brink or have something more interesting to say? we've been warned repeatedly that Kylo Ren is the hero of his own story.

Bloodline all but tells us that the New Republic ain't necessarily the "good guys" here.
if anything, i wish the intention/behavior of the FO had been left a little more ambiguous than blowing up a whole system.

 

I'd rather a villain who was deliciously evil but wasn't shown onscreen doing something I as an audience member could never forgive =\ Period. Full stop.

(Though ask me again after TLJ. I only believe in mathematical and definitional impossibilities ;D)

See, Kylo's character is unusual, in that I don't think fans who love their villains generally feel the need to try to excuse/explain away/justify their crimes or suggest thay they didn't even occur. HOWEVER, most villains aren't presented with a giant neon "POOR GUY!!!! " sign on his forehead, as well. So when I say "try to excuse etc" the villain's crimes I DON'T mean to slam Kylo fans. I just think JJ is sending unusually conflicting signals. Some fans are getting one set, other fans are getting another. I feel I'm getting both and I just feel frustrated

So I complain about Kylo a lot. But more about what JJ did with him than with the character himself, if that makes sense??

 

i guess i can see that. and certainly there are fan who are trying to sweep his guilt under the carpet because it makes him easier to deal with.
certainly i cop to wishing/hoping he didn't kill Luke's students so we'd wouldn't have that blood on his hands.

i had no problem feeling sorry for Vader even without a big "POOR BABY" sign hung over his head. it's just in my nature to fathom the darkness that drives these people down the wrong path. i don't excuse their behavior, but i do feel compassion for them and i want them to be well.

all the more heartbreaking if they've given us this conflict in Ren Ben and then decide to let him perish in the Dark.
that will not please me on so many levels for so many reasons. hahaha
so i get what you're saying. in the end, we may find it all works out logically and brilliantly and it's completely emotionally satisfying.
for now we're hang-gliding in limbo ~ i'm just going to be optimistic. : D

 

If they end up NOT redeeming Kylo (and I'm dead certain they will) I'll be genuinely pissed off on behalf of his fans, even if the story is good, because I think it's just wrong to create expectations like that.

It's really nice, reading your perspective on Kylo! I've always thought that it's perfectly reasonable to love a character (especially such a well-acted one) without actually having to defend them as an innocent lamb.

Luke has always been my favorite character, and frankly I'm REALLY looking forward to learning how and why he (most likely) screwed up so bad.

(Reminds me of my tabletop roleplaying days...I'd always be the player to load up my character with tons of flaws. Oh, but I ended up getting SO much of the plot as a result )

I would really like the ST to clarify if the Dark Side involves any level of "magical compulsion." Not to the point where it absolves Dark Siders of moral guilt, but some way of distinguishing it from regular ole every-day evil...

 

i worry about Luke too! Ben's current state is a direct reflection of our OT heroes' failures. that can't be the way their story ends. and Han's death has to mean something. i worry that if Ben dies in the dark, i will hate Luke and Leia and blame them and that's a bad feeling ~ hahaha

i don't believe in the mystical compulsion business either, but i do think there's room for understanding in Ben's seduction and brainwashing. this theme of imperiled children runs throughout the ST and heavily in the EU; children who are abused, abandoned, and corrupted.

it would be a shame if the message, in the end, is: well, too bad kid. there's just no hope for you.
that's not Star Wars to me. : o p

 

Han literally says one of the students betrayed Luke and killed the students.

[Luke] was training a new generation of Jedi. One boy, an apprentice turned against him, destroyed it all. Luke felt responsible … He walked away from everything.

 

YOU get a redemption arc! And YOU get a redemption arc! And YOU get a redemption arc!

Seriously - they're all getting one, to one degree or another.

Well...maybe not Leia now

And Rey? Maybe not!

And yes - perfectly stated - Kylo is a *reflection* of the OT3's failings.

I'm a bit nervous that there's SO much plot and SO many characters to develop that the exploration some stuff basically requires (for a satisfying conclusion) will be relegated to the EU T_T

But no! I don't think JJ would have made Kylo's redemption arc blatantly obvious in TFA if that arc happening was not pre-determined

 

Star Wars should just hand out redemption like Pez ~ hahahaha

Leia will be redeemed. hopefully in TLJ she already is. : o (

 

It hurts so bad that Leia won't get the spotlight she deserves It always irked me that she was the "tacked-on" Skywalker...,

And I think it will really hurt the ST's structure and Kylo's arc as well.

>__<

 

we'll have to see how it plays out. hopefully they do her character justice. [fingers crosssed!]

 

It definitely changes things. Hopefully she gets a scene with her son..

 

I wonder if they intended Leia and/or Luke to survive the ST....

 

Purely speculating here, but...

What if, Han doesn't know the whole story or the truth. What if he hears a rumor that wasn't actually true?

Do I think Luke willfully killed another Jedi? No. Not in a million years. But what if (again pure speculation) in a confrontation with Kylo, and in an attempt to subdue him using a Force Power we have seen before but one that Luke thought he mastered, he accidentally killed his other students? That would definitely be surprising and something I would think Mark would initially object to, and it would definitely make the movie dark.

Is it likely? Almost no fan theory is IMO, but you have to admit it's possible.

 

Well, the Databank says it was Kylo (and his buddies, I think).

However, do I believe that Luke felt responsible, as Han claims? Yes.

Do I believe he had good reason to feel responsible in some respect? Most likely, yes.

I'd find it EXTREMELY surprising if Luke doesn't have some serious (metaphorical) skeletons in his closet.

 

Why do people think Kylo will be redeemed in this trilogy. I personally see the finale leaving a Dark Lord Ren in charge of the Galaxy, while Rey Phasma, Chewy, Finn are hiding on backwood wild space planets trying to put together some kind of New Jedi to eventually use to combat Kylo's army of New Sith accolades and the FO ST's in the SST.

Luke of course will merge with the Living Force entity inside Jakku to save it and the path to wild space. Jakku will then become green again and very powerfully defend itself from enemy ships and evil force users.

Kylo won't dare go near there. -:

 

I'll come up with some cool concepts and leave all the heavy lifting for someone else, that is how the mystery box really worked in TFA. Can't wait for the answers Rian.

 

To JJ, a "mystery box" = a mystery that enhances a story by remaining a mystery, right?

 

no the databank does not say he kills them no one ever comes out and says it directly ...it is hinted at and it is rumored and it is implied and since this is han and Liea son i am going to doubt it I think we are in for a big reveal and finding out tfa was a big misdirection