Official Episode VIII - Kylo Ren Discussion Thread

yeah and it would be indeed more devastating for Luke if not only Ben turned against him, but more students. Additionally it would be more interesting if Luke as the powerful master fights in VIII against other force sensitives (former students) instead of some rogues/bounty hunters.

 

Judging by the news we have seen so far, he sure looks to take that ''powerful master'' center stage'', it's going to be epic.

 

we have no actual confirmation on any of these things. we don't know precisely when Snoke started in on Ben specifically (only that he was there from the start, watching), and we don't know that Leia felt like hiding the truth was what precipitated the turn (the kid was already disturbed, it's safe to say the revelation may have been a breaking point, but for all we know, Ben and Luke were already fighting before it all came out). we also don't know how precisely Ben found out about Vader: from Snoke? from the media? from Leia's desperate message that we didn't get to hear?

we know Snoke certainly told Ren Ben his own version of Vader at some point and that Ren has accepted it as fact.
but we have no idea the timeline for any of this.

 

I think JJ backs up what I said about the "thank you" line not being a nice thing for Ren to say:

...And now they’re in this darkness. And darkness takes over. And as if this moment isn’t disturbing enough, he pushes the saber further in and says these terrifying two words. “Thank You.” In Kylo’s mind, what he has just done seals the deal. It’s the ultimate proof to Snoke that he is to be trusted, that he will not be seduced by the light. And I think, the instant that he’s done it, he regrets it.”

This shows that the line is on the devious side of Ren rather than truly being thankful. For me it's a confusing thing to put in when you're looking at this scene from the POV of Ren struggling to kill his father. But what JJ shows us is that after Ren makes the choice to do it (when the lights go out) he is being nasty Ren again. And so the line is more of a nasty comment to make to his father.

This doesn't change the fact that he struggled before or that he was conflicted afterwards (in fact it highlights it). Just saying the line itself was sly, inappropriate, nasty etc. Just explanation however makes sense as this is Ren trying to act like the ultimate dark side rather than truly embodying it. I just never bought the idea that he meant it.

 

hahaha ~ i think this actually says exactly what we were saying about his sincerity.
absolutely the "thank you" is supposed to seal the deal.
Ren Ben thinks his father has given it up and he's going to ascend to some greater power/awareness/strength.
there still doesn't necessarily have to be cruelty in it.
it's just him thinking he's done what was expected of him and expressing his gratitude for his father not making it a fight.
because JJ also says: "the instant that he's done it, he regrets it."

so no, this isn't proof of deviousness. it proof of commitment, but Ren Ben's commitment isn't devious.
and it makes total sense for him to thank his father under the circumstances. because of his conflict.
if he wasn't conflicted, he wouldn't bother thanking him because he wouldn't care what Han thinks or does in the moment.
he'd just cut him down and think himself the better for it.

 

Hmm I'm not sure I read that into it. JJ makes it clear that Ren does what he does to prove himself to Snoke and by extension go against his father's hopes and intentions (in regard to offering help). Ren knows what help Han is offering and rejects it and then utters those terrifying words: "thank you". That's not "thank you for helping me", spoken in sincerity. It's a callous, vulgar use of the phrase to highlight that he has chosen evil. Playing the dark side pretender. Of course he then instantly regrets it and realises he is in fact weaker for it. And I'm also by no means suggesting he wasn't conflicted leading up to it. But when the darkness comes "the mask" goes back on.

I'm simply saying I read the "thank you" as a classic nasty villainous line - something we see Ren do time and time again in the movie as he wants to appear as the ultimate dark side servant. I don't read it as a sincere thank you.

 

we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

we have plenty of examples in the film that demonstrate what Ren sounds like when he's being nasty (including with his father).

there's no reason why he would use a sincere demeanor to deliver an awful line if it was awful-ly intended.

 

But as JJ says, he drives the saber in deeper as he says it...

Anyway, agree to disagree on this! It's a pretty meaningless point I was making anyway! Whooops!

 

An interesting point I read online and hadn't considered was that when the light disappears Kylo knows the weapon is charged and that his mother, his old home and old life are shortly to be destroyed.

By that moment it must really seem inevitable - there's little hope in pursuing the light, his family/light side connections won't survive, it truly is too late, he is in too deep and takes the easy path.

 

The novelisation does mention a young boy, and if I remember correctly, one of the force-back designers did say that Snoke was to be seen looming over the young boy. While not an outright confirmation of Ben, I think it's pretty safe to assume it is.

 

spoiler here we got leaks that he appears on ach-to with a slight scare on his face. so not a whole lot of time is going to pass

 

Yeah, that pretty much common knowledge/ speculation by this point.

Even if a whole bunch of time passed though, that scar would still be there, as it's permanent. Bacta only seems to accelerate the healing process, it doesn't actually do the healing itself. This is only logical explanation for why beings in the SWU can still have scars after undergoing bacta treatment.

 

Yeah exactly, bacta tanks only close wounds and repair the underlying tissue/ bone. It wont cosmetically repair people. The alternative scene of Luke in the bacta should have found its way into the movies I reckon!

 

Imagine if ben and finn were wearing bubble bacta suits just like the rumors and had a bacta battle

 

hahaha. They had to wear them right through the next movie! Look, it might kill the vibe a little but I would get a good laugh hahah

 

I posted a bubble boy gif recently and got a clouded rating but it is a apprpriate here

 

Bahah! Amazing!

 

If you find it on here feel free to laugh until you can't think anymore
.

 

She was actually disillusioned by the Senate, when it came out, she dressed all in black to kind of throw it in their face. I think you are right on her never fully accepting him as her father, and after all he put her though, why would she. I still don't think it was selfish. She was always so selfless, and it actually made me mad how many had turned on her. Some out of jealousy, some who briefly were upset, that is shocking, but it wasn't her fault who her bio dad was. She wasn't very close to many people, she did have supporters and friends, but not many close to her, probably because of her losses. She was far from a selfish person. Casterfo was upset because they did get somewhat close, as close as Leia would allow someone like that get to her, and they even talked about how Vader effected their lives a bit how he was a monster, then for him to do that? After knowing something about her own hated of the man? Without talking to her first?

 

Yeah, I like that. The thing with Kylo for me is that he is still very much "a kid" that feels this great pain from being conflicted and has been lead to believe that the Dark Side is the answer. BUT he knows deep down this isn't right but tries to prove to himself and everyone else that it is the truth. He desperately wants to be like Vader as the Dark Lord seemed so "comfortable in himself". Of course this is a bit odd as Vader was shown to still have conflict which lead to his redemption. Nevertheless, for Ren, Vader holds the answer to his internal issues and he goes out of his way to convince himself and others that this is the best path for him. So when he acts out and say, talks trash to San Tekka and cuts him down, that is Ren "playing the role" rather than truly "being the bad guy" through and through.

And so when he confronts his father the light in him does almost bring him back. He is sincere when he reveals his pain to Han. But alas, when the darkness comes and as you point above, it seems to Ren that really there is no other way for him so he reverts back to acting as the cold hearted Dark Sider. He murders his father and cooly says "thank you" - all part of the act. But then he feels that he isn't empowered but weakened by the act, conflicting him further. Yet once again however, after Chewie shoots him, he "puts the mask back on" and uses his anger to pull himself back down the Dark Path.

It's a constant struggle. And I guess one that Snoke has orchestrated and controlled.