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Palpatine's Grand plan: the skywalkers, Starkiller base, and the "Source of the Force"

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' started by kayjaysay, Sep 12, 2015.

  1. kayjaysay

    kayjaysay Rebelscum

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    Apologies for the essay, but please bear with me:

    This might be old hat in these forums, but I just wanted to lay these ideas out, for my own understanding as much as anyone else's. My theory stems from six main pieces of information found in various new and old canon Star Wars media:

    1. The Death Star used giant kyber crystals to fuel its planet-destroying laser cannon. (Lost Stars)

    2. The Emperor had sent people to the farthest reaches of the galaxy in order to find the source of the Force, or the Dark Side. An "Imperial Future Council," in a session post-Emperor-demise, debated whether or not to continue this search for this ultimate power, allegedly hidden on the outskirts of the galaxy. "We must move toward the Dark Side. Palpatine felt that the universe beyond the edges of our maps was where his power came from. Over the many years he, with our aid, sent men and woman beyond known space. They built labs and communication stations on distant moons, asteroids, out there in the wilds. We must follow them. Retreat from the galaxy. Go out beyond the veil of stars. We must seek the source of the Dark Side like a man looking for a wellspring of water." (Aftermath)

    3. The Emperor hinted at similar ambitions earlier, claiming that he and Vader would, much as Sidious himself and his former master had, "coax from the Dark Side its final secrets," in an ancient Sith Temple below the Jedi Temple. Thought Sidious: "Such perilous machinations required two Sith, one to serve as bait for the dark side, the other to be the vessel. Success would grant them the power to harness the full powers of the dark side, and allow them to rule for ten thousand years." He talked to Vader of "our needs" as separate from the "Empire's needs." He later thought about master's wise words on the Force, specifically about how it could "strike back." Clearly, he had something much grander on his mind than just galactic political domination. (Tarkin)

    4. Starkiller Base has been confirmed to be a planet armed with a weapon with the capability of destroying entire star systems. (StarWars.com) It has also been rumored to have been a Sith homeworld of sorts, an entire planet that is converted into a weapon by a source that gets more credible as more facts are confirmed (the Mizzlewump leak).

    5. Kyber crystals were the source of the energy of a Jedi's lightsaber, and had a strong connection to the Force. (Star Wars: The Clone Wars)

    6. While Vader and Luke dueled on Bespin, Vader kept hinting that there was something greater at play here, something unspoken that was behind all of this. He claimed Luke did "not yet realize [his] importance," and opined "if only [he] knew the power of the Dark Side." Vader knew something he didn't entirely let on to either Luke or the audience. (Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back).

    Here's my theory: the Death Star, which it is now clear was nothing more than a gigantic, moon-sized lightsaber of sorts, was a beta test. It was the Emperor's way of seeing if it were feasible to harness the power of the Force via kyber crystals on such an enormous scale. It was a stepping stone, and the Emperor, needing the manpower, resources, and political sway to pull off such a monumental undertaking, realized the only way anyone would be able to realistically do so would be to take control of everything, that is, to become an all-powerful despot who could command such manpower, resources, and unquestionable political sway. So began his plotting.

    He also knew he would need two extremely powerful Dark Side Force users to enact his ultimate goal - one to be the "bait," and the other to be the "vessel." His master and he served these roles well enough, but either through greed or belief the master was not powerful enough to perform to the role up to the heights he hoped to achieve, and taking to heart his master's teachings that "the Force can strike back" and that with the manipulation of the Force, he could "create life," he created a being borne of the Force itself, meant to replace his master. Once he met that being, and could sense his nigh-unlimited potential in the Force, he killed his master, and began to take on the role of mentor figure to the troubled boy; this troubled boy, who was a living, breathing, human prism of the Force, would be the ultimate vessel.

    Having planted the seeds for civil war and a Republic Army, his puppeteering continued. The Clone Wars spread thin the Jedi, and the already seeping and insidious Dark Side of the Force from the hidden temple made their vision ever cloudier. He continued to mould the ambitions of the boy he knew would eventually become his apprentice and vessel, and when the time was right, he used him as a catalyst to end the Clone Wars, eliminate the weakened and vulnerable Jedi and grab a hold of the dictatorial power and unlimited access to resources he needed to continue his plans.

    So began the construction of his beta test. Kyber crystals were harvested, gargantuan ones that when brought together, could have their energy harnessed to do unspeakable damage. Palpatine was pleased. The first stepping stone was a success. The Empire, thus far, was performing its role: as a tool.

    The Rebellion became a thorn in the Empire's side, inciting dissent and decreasing the efficiency and effectiveness of its utility as a means to the Emperor's ultimate end. It destroyed the beta test. But at that point, it was no matter. That it could be done had already been proven. Now it was time to both eliminate this thorn and test Palpatine's theory on a larger scale.

    At this point, Vader knew of Palpatine's ultimate goals, and perhaps either thought, as he told to the Emperor, that Skywalker could be a great "asset" in said goals, or that, much like Palpatine did to his master, he could eliminate his mentor and take up his role, with his son taking his stead as the "vessel." Luke did not yet realize his importance, nor had he even begun to grasp what the capabilities of the Dark Side were.

    So while Palpatine sent out men and women on far-reaching scouting missions for this "wellspring of the Dark Side," he built a much, much larger test. The second Death Star. Or at least, he tried to. Partway through its construction, his attempts to discard his incumbent "vessel" for one less tarnished, maimed, and with just as much Force potential (read: discard Vader for Luke), backfired, and led to his demise.

    So the Emperor died, along with his staggeringly leviathan ambitions. Or did they? Obviously, seeing as the Imperial remnants maintained their designs of finding this "wellspring," some part of his plans remained known and acted upon.

    Now we get to the kicker: essentially, Palpatine wanted to become an all-powerful Force demigod, one who could rule as a nigh-immortal ("rule for ten thousand years"). His ambitions began during his teachings with his master, who desired the same things. He wanted to find this supposed source of the Dark Side so that he could harness it, which in some way was connected to kyber crystals (which at this point are looking more and more as if they are extremely powerful conduits if not the source itself of the Force in some ways). He did not find it while he was alive, but what became of the Imperial remnant, that is, the First Order, did. And they took what was successful in beta test form on a lunar scale and enlarged it to planetary proportions. They took an entire planet, the greatest concentration of kyber crystals in the galaxy, and converted it into a weapon capable of harnessing and focusing the power of the Force into pure energy, energy that could lay waste to entire star systems.

    But for Snoke, who is somehow connected to Palpatine, and through whom Palpatine's grand vision and ultimate ambitions live on, Starkiller Base, this super-sized Death Star, is nothing more than another stepping stone. The First Order, like its predecessor the Empire, is the means to an end. And Kylo Ren, much like Luke a descendant of the human prism of the Force that was Anakin Skywalker, his Snoke's "vessel," as Vader was to Palpatine. To what exact end this stepping stone is, I'm not sure. What I can surmise is that it has to do with harnessing this "power of the Dark Side" Vader spoke of in a way that needs two powerful Force users, and that the use of kyber crystals as focal points for the Force's destructive (Dark Side) power (Death Star, Starkiller Base), have been precursors to said end. Perhaps, in the end, Kylo Ren will seek himself and Rey to be those two Force users? Whatever it ends up being, I'm sure the ultimate revelation on this will come in Episode IX.

    There are a couple snags:

    1. Vader, in ANH, says, "The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force." Now, why would he say that if he knew that the Death Star was essentially a beta test for harnessing the Force's power itself? Perhaps he was attempting to state that there was more to come, that this was just the beginning? That to think this was the "ultimate power in the Universe," as the Moff so arrogantly and ignorantly stated, was naive?

    2. How do the Knights of Ren fit into this? I love Revanite's "balance" theory, and if anyone can find a way to fit it into what I've laid out above that would be great. I have some ideas, but I'm not sure they jive well with what I have.

    What do you think?
     
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  2. Angelman

    Angelman Servant of the Whills -- Slave to the Muses
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    Congratulations with a very well-crafted and properly referenced theory. Very well done, @kayjaysay. I think your theory makes lots of sense. I like it. You tie together SW canon into a vast and coherent plot, that makes Palpatine's ambitions relevant post RotJ without having to resurrect him (although it remains to be formulated who Snoke is in relation to good 'ol Palp).


    Here’s a possible third snag:
    3. I don't see Palpatine knowing about Anakin from the start. If he did, then why didn’t he just go to Tatooine and buy the boy off the Hutts and train him to become the vessel from infancy? Why ‘waste’ years of training and indoctrination to let the boy grow up beyond his sphere of interest, and then try to convert Anakin when he was a grown up? (Of course, the answer to this is that it would make for a very poor movie if Palpatine trained Anakin in secret, but still…)
     
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  3. greek petty officer

    greek petty officer Rebel Trooper

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    Well done lord kayjaysay
     
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  4. Derth Nadir

    Derth Nadir Rebel General

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    Very well done, Kayjaysay. You beat me to the punch. I've been building something like this as I re-examine the Canon material.

    Here are some observations:

    1. I think Anakin would have told Luke about the parts of this plan that he knew of after he became a Force Ghost, so you have to factor in that Luke knows something. Even if the ghosts are no longer around and can't be contacted (which I don't believe), there was enough time after ROTJ for Anakin to give Luke the info. So what did Luke do with this knowledge?

    2. Are you saying Palpatine created Anakin? I don't see any evidence of this in canon. He specifically hinted to Anakin that it was his master that created him. One of the original drafts of ROTS had Palpatine saying he was the one who created Anakin, but Lucas changed it to be Plagueis. Palpative specifically says he doesn't have the power to cheat death, but together he and Anakin would find the secret. This tells me Palpatine didn't know as much as Plagueis did. He was lying to Anakin about how much he knew in order to get him to join the Dark Side.
    Also, the idea of "The Force striking back" came originally from the Plagueis novel and was a hint that the Force created Anakin in resistance against his experiments. Its inclusion in canon could suggest that this is still a possible explanation.

    3. The idea of an origin of the Dark Side beyond the edges of the Galaxy seems like the flip-side to the Force Planet that Yoda encountered in The Clone Wars, which is said to be at the "heart" of the Galaxy. "All that surround us is the foundation of life, the birthplace of what your science calls midi-chlorians, the foundation of what connects the Living Force and the Cosmic Force." - Force Priestess to Yoda.

    4. The idea of "Kiber Crystals" that enhanced the Force was first used in the early drafts of Star Wars. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kaiburr_crystal#Behind_the_scenes
    It is also canon that "According to legend, the ancient Sith used massive kyber crystals to create superweapons" http://www.starwars.com/databank/death-star-superlaser
    "Long ago in forgotten times when the Sith and Jedi fought for control of the galaxy, weapons there were of unimaginable power. Always at their heart a kyber crystal was." - Yoda
    I think it is possible that Starkiller Base uses a combination of technology and the Force to function.

    5. We also have the Acolytes of the Beyond, who may connect to the Knights of Ren. An Acolyte says “We are not violent. Not yet.” The KOR could be a militaristic wing of the Acolytes, or what they morphed into when they became violent. The Ren of KOR could have been an Acolyte who founded this wing of the Acolytes. Right now, I would say the KOR are the Force users who are guarding and overseeing Starkiller Base (though we may only see Kylo - the others could be involved in other work), likely involved in building it if the crystals need to be aligned with the Force, and are continuing Dark Side research.

    It is possible that the Acolytes are part of those sent into the "Beyond" and have returned (in the Aftermath time frame) to make sure Vader's saber returns to him in death (does this mean they are Vader obsessive, or would they do this for any Sith, or even Jedi?). It is possible that they are just a Dark Side cult who haven't traveled to the "Beyond" yet. They will likely return to the Beyond, possibly with Imperial remnants, only to return some time before the events of TFA. Perhaps Snoke is an "Acolyte" rather than a Knight of Ren if they are separate wings of one organization. I think the First Order, unlike the Empire, will be openly controlled by Force Users and are something of a Dark Side cult akin to Tashu (Also from "Aftermath" - one of Palpatine's advisers and Dark Side historian, though not Force sensitive. He is the one who advises that they retreat from the Galaxy and seek the Dark Side).
    I think the "Beyond" could be a place outside the Galaxy that is strong in the Dark Side where they believe Dark Side users go when they die and join the Force. Perhaps they believe they can feed off this energy to become more powerful. They could worship dead Force users as a way of gaining more of this power.
     
    #4 Derth Nadir, Sep 12, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2015
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  5. D-green

    D-green Rebel General

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    Interesting theory. (emperor)
     
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  6. Protocol Droid

    Protocol Droid Rebel General

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    I'm not sure if this is exactly what you're suggesting, but if the Death Star laser was in fact powered by giant kyber crystals, and the new Starkiller weapon is an order of magnitude more powerful (I.e. it can take out an entire system of planets), I think it likely that the snow planet that harbors Starkiller Base has a kyber crystal core. In other words, you can't just convert any planet into a superweapon -- you select a planet that already has favorable mystico-geological properties, in other words, a planet whose interior core is crystallized kyber (like how the Earth's core is iron and nickel).

    I hadn't thought of this until reading your post, and specifically the recent revelation that the Death Star was weaponized via kyber crystals -- but now I'm convinced this must be the case. Starkiller Base has underground structures (that shot from the teaser of Plasma walking through something that looks part empire vessel part cave is probably a shot of the base), including some kind of drill type apparatus for tapping into and harnessing the planetary core.
     
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  7. jtobiska

    jtobiska Rebel General

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    This is awesome! Great to see people starting to connect all the little pieces from the new cannon into something coherent.
     
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  8. Yoda 2

    Yoda 2 Rebel Official

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    Yes yes yes!!! The kyber crystals importance is very apparent in the new canon. Even the new Uprising game you start out harvesting crystals. This is so much better to me than midiclorians. Crystals have a mystical magical aspect to them that's more like The Force to me than scientific midiclorians.

    I'm really into the dark side being from beyond. I really want to see a bunch of ancient Sith pour out of a dark crystal wormhole that connects to a dark Galaxy.

    Good stuff man!
     
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  9. Protocol Droid

    Protocol Droid Rebel General

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    Exactly. It's little things like this that make a "universe" feel like a universe with consistent laws that structure its expansive infinitude.
     
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  10. SMN

    SMN Rebel Trooper

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    I have trouble that it in the Prequels we saw it was the 'seperetists' working on the Death Star Plans rather than Sidious/Palpatine making it less likely a 'Force' creation - Giant LightSaber
     
    #10 SMN, Sep 23, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2015
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  11. BaronSoontirFel

    BaronSoontirFel Rebel Commander

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    Da SHeeev hads the hands in allvrything
     
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  12. kayjaysay

    kayjaysay Rebelscum

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    All we know for sure is that the Geonosians helped in the design of the Death Star. It's very unlikely that Palpatine, who ultimately was the one running the show and therefore commissioned the Geonosians through Dooku to help design the station, didn't give strict parameters to said design. And it's not a "Force creation," it's a gigantic piece of technology that happens to take advantage of and make use of materials that are inherently and profoundly connected to the Force. That's indisputable (as in it's canon that kyber crystals have a strong connection to the Force, and it's canon that the Death Star uses kyber crystals as the source for its laser). Since lightsabers are essentially the same thing on an exponentially smaller scale (pieces of technology that take advantage of and make us of materials that are inherently and profoundly connected to the Force), I made the analogy you're referring to. What's up for debate is whether or not it's a stepping stone towards something greater.
     
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  13. Wayne

    Wayne Rebel Official

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    I posted something similar earlier this month:

    But I have to admit, I think you did a better job of tying everything in. Well done, @kayjaysay -- I'm with you on this and think it would be a great route for the ST to take.... ;)
     
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  14. MagnarTheGreat

    MagnarTheGreat Jedi General

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    http://www.starwarsunderworld.com/2015/03/dave-filoni-talks-rebels-season-one.html

    The episode "Breaking Ranks" involved the stopping of the Kyber Crystal shipment on the tv series Star Wars Rebels.
     
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  15. AlwaysFetting

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    I believe that palpatine would have a lot of other irons in the fire and perhaps he knew he wouldn't have the time to properly train the boy and manipulate his way into the position of supreme chancellor. Perhaps the chancellor started the rumors of the jedi who would bring balance to the force knowing that a jedi would not pass up the chance to bring a prophecy to fruition. As far as turning anakin to the dark side, Palpatine always struck me as arrogant and probably assumed it would just happen because of his power but of course we know he also ensured it by manipulating anakin into the position of being afraid of losing padme
     
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  16. kayjaysay

    kayjaysay Rebelscum

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    I understand those who are skeptical that Palpatine wouldn't train Anakin from the very beginning, but I think he honestly didn't know where this being birthed from the Force he had manipulated into existence was born. He just trusted that the Force would bring Anakin to him, which is of course what happened. And after Anakin was brought to him, he couldn't train him without raising huge red flags in the eyes of the Jedi, so he just became a close confidant and insidiously twisted his mind over a long period time.
     
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  17. TheFettMan

    TheFettMan Rebel Official

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    I agree with about 90% of the post theory but substitute Darth Plaguis for Sheev P. (emperor)

    I don't think DP had the Death Star or any WMD concept but he did put the Skywalkers in motion and he did allow Sheev to falsely believe he could assend into power then create the Empire.
    Plaguis then would return & take over as imperial ruler of the galaxy with Darth Vader as his 2IC or sub ordinate.
    Plaguis had the power of eternal life and would rule the Galaxy forever.
    If Luke killed Vader then DP could return and defeat Luke(or better still, draw him to the Dark Side).
    I keep saying how DP connects all nine Star Wars films. It makes sense that he would be the true evil power and trying to control the force.
    Luke instead might be much stronger than Darth Plaguis understands & could defeat him.
    I think too that in TESB, Yoda wasn't fearful of Vader. (dark) He was seeing DP & the coming long term threat that Luke was unprepared for. :confused:
    This is why Yoda sent Luke to the Magic Tree and why he didn't tell Luke Vader was his real father.
     
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  18. Master Raze Golladio

    Master Raze Golladio Rebel General

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    I think it's also important to understand that the reason the Death Star commission was given to the Geonosians was likely because they were relatively off-the-radar, and clearly very industrious, intelligent and technically-minded beings.

    So with this in mind, it seems the ideal place for the Death Star plans to be drawn up, and by the right people. (Yes, I know it goes against the grain of all the Legends stuff, but there you go. Personally, I thought the Maw Installation would have made a much more interesting place to include in the films, but that's just me.) The Geonosian architects would not have needed to know that they were Kaiburr crystals at all, or that there was any greater purpose intended for them - getting them to work as a planet-destroying weapon would have been enough, as it was for all of us until bits of story started getting out about Starkiller Base.

    I can't wait to see how this plays out! :D
     
  19. alex

    alex Rebel Official

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    What makes you think Yoda was aware of Plaggy? Yoda says in TPM, always 2 there are, and then he later finds the 2nd. As far as yoda is concerned it is just vader and palpy. He didn't know the story of darth plaggy the wise and he certainly wasn't aware of the fan community fetish for the resurrection and return of plaggy as snoke in TFA.
     
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  20. kayjaysay

    kayjaysay Rebelscum

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    I purposefully didn't mention Plagueis when saying Snoke was somehow connected to Palpatine, because I know how some people get; if it were to be true, however, I personally believe it could make for well done, symmetrical storytelling. You think what I wrote above is long? I wrote a 3500-word treatise on why I believe Plagueis to be a worthy choice for the antagonist of the sequel trilogy and on which clues point towards his presence. What I find interesting is how vitriolic some people seem to get when he's brought up -- and I honestly think it's because of his association with the prequels. Had Plagueis never been mentioned in a few lines in Episode III, and had he remained unnamed and unmentioned throughout the PT, the idea of Palpatine's former master rising and attempting to finish what he started would probably be much more palatable to quite a few more people than it is now.

    How Snoke could possibly be connected to Palpatine, I don't know. I personally detest the idea of Palpatine having had a secret student who we conveniently never heard of during the OT but who is simultaneously powerful enough to pose as much of a threat now as Palpatine once did.
     
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