"Somehow, Palpatine..."

So it's the lack of a gesture that is bothersome? I don't think she ever gave it a thought. We saw that she had doubt previously when Kylo tried to pull her to the Dark Side. She had no doubt about killing grandpa. The Light in her gave her that clarity. Yes, it was rooted in hate and anger, but according to what Palpatine told Luke in ROTJ, he needed to strike him down in anger in order to take his place. Her anger didn't have that effect. Was the Light in her that strong? Or was maybe his whole theory just a bunch of lies and fairy tales?

As far as Mace leading with mercy? I think the moral of that story is that the Jedi were TOO merciful and arrogant.

 

I feel the same way, but I don’t think it has to ruin the entire saga. Like say in 2010, I had made my own Episode 7 and put it on YouTube. It probably wouldn’t be very good, but would that stop you from watching the real movies? I don’t consider the ST to be real SW movies either. But I don’t have to, because 1-6 (and I’ll throw in R1 as well) are a complete saga with a perfect ending.

 

I have a couple of thoughts on this. Firstly, I think it's sad that someone who obviously cares a great deal about SW was so put off or offended by something that it has affected their enjoyment of the universe. Me personally, I'm able to temper my thoughts on most things, and even things that bother me, I can work around them. I think anybody who cares about SW sees things that they would have done differently. That just shows that everything has meaning. We have taken the time to think of alternative things. I've got to say, from what I've read in this thread, it seems as though there are several different perspectives. I would hope that if I ever felt so greatly bothered by something, that I would be able to take some of those other perspectives and maybe see the offensive issue in a different light. That's part of the reason I'm here.

 

For me, the tiniest inkling of regret that killing someone was the only resolution to the conflict, would have gone a long way to feeling ethically cohesive. Taking a life, even an evil life, is unfortunate. Even if it’s unavoidable. That’s not the same as redemption. It’s just basic human kindness.

I mean think of the earlier scene in TROS with the vexis (giant snake monster). Rey is confronted with a situation that outwardly appeared hostile. It was an aggressive animal poised to strike. She could have met its hostility with equal hostility. She could have led with violence like Poe wanted. But instead she opted for empathy. She recognized that the creature’s aggression was stemming from a place of hidden pain. So she decided to heal that pain. She decided to lead with mercy.

She was willing and able to see the supposed monster as a suffering being and managed to find peace where there would likely have been struggle and death. It’s easily my favorite scene in the movie. Now, hard cut from that moment to where Rey knowingly shoves Palpy’s sparky daggers back into his disintegrating face so that he explodes into smithereens. It’s a weird pairing, right? Is it just me?

For the ending to work, I feel Rey can’t have been making that killing blow out of hatred. It had to have been coming from a place of pure defense. Otherwise she’s just doing exactly what the villain wanted her to do. I believe that was the intent. Rey wasn’t killing him. He was killing himself. But . . . well . . . the staging definitely makes it look like she’s making it happen. So kinda muddled. What we’re told and what we’re shown aren’t exactly playing nice with each other.

I definitely read the opposite. To me, it’s a collision of two ethical inversions. Mace is doing the wrong thing for the right reason, while Anakin is doing the right thing for the wrong reason.

The Jedi are guardians of peace and justice. They aren’t judge, jury, and executioner. They don’t use their power to determine who lives and who dies. That’s why Anakin’s beheading of Dooku at the start of ROTS is presented as unambiguously wrong. Mace similarly executing Palpatine would also be wrong. Even though his underline motives are fundamentally pure. He wants to save countless lives.

Anakin is entirely correct. Palpatine should live. But Anakin’s underline motives though are not fundamentally pure. He isn’t truly defending the sanctity of life. He just wants to spare himself from the grief of his wife’s death as a possible consequence of Palpatine’s death. He can’t dissuade Mace from his course because his protest isn’t coming from a place of truth.

Both characters are simultaneously right and wrong. A genuine ethical quandary. Had Mace acted as more of a Jedi and had Anakin believed as more of a Jedi, then the vast tragedy that followed might have been avoided. The moral: what we do is equally as important as why we do it.

Well, that’s how it makes sense to me anyhow

 

I guess Rey not going to Palpatine in order to be nice to him and make a gesture of conciliation makes her almost as unpleasant a character as Yoda.

The idea that Rey offering amnesty to Palpatine's clone would be more palatable to the audience than her deflecting the lightning intended to destroy her back at him is utterly preposterous. I'm constantly told that at least half the audience, since it's supposedly so divisive and polarising, is aghast at Rey having any kind of tolerance for Kylo Ren. But the audience has a problem with her not reaching out to "the devil incarnate" (according to G. Lucas) who is responsible for the death of the parents who tried to protect her. Some people are still uncomfortable with the idea of declaring Anakin/Vader redeemed.

You should always have an open mind. But not so open that your brain falls out.

 

Not sure what this means. Because Yoda went to violently confront Palpatine? To beat him at this own game? And resoundingly failed? You think there might be a point being made there?

One of the major problems in this world, I feel, is that people often mistake compassion as weakness and cruelty as strength. When it’s the other way around.

Who said anything about the audience? I know I only ever referred to my own personal perspective and nobody else’s.

Nobody said that in this thread that I’ve observed.

And that’s their loss for defaulting to their own sense of morality and not engaging with what the story is presenting.

I don’t get the impression that you truly believe that.

 

I totally get what you are saying, and in a real world perspective, I couldn't agree more. When I read all the arguments here, combined with my own perspective, it just seems like they did everything they could to, first of all, dehumanize Palpatine, and also set the stage that unless he was killed, millions of innocent lives would have been taken, and that would have meant that every hero we have loved for 40+ years would have died in vain.

If you step back a few steps and look at it from the widest, simplest view, it fits into the overall morality of SW. Extremists will never win. Balance is the key. Going forward, Rey is not pure Good. You could look at it as she will follow the path that Anakin would have likely taken had he not fallen to the Dark Side.

 

Rey is described as 'magic, pure light' in Shadow of the Sith. Sounds like being pure Good is what they are saying about her.
Also, in the TROS novelisation Ben Solo is described as being 'glad to die a he was giving Rey back to the galaxy (please pass the sick bags someone.)

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 25, 2022, Original Post Date: Nov 25, 2022 ---

Didn't Darth Vader do the same thing to Luke?

 

If you mean the hunting down part?
Not exactly. There are parallels. Vader didn't know Luke existed until shortly before they were face to face, and I always took it that Palpatine revealing the existence of the twins to Vader was the moment that Anakin started to come back. Vader stalked Luke because his master ordered him to, but there always seemed to be an undercurrent of a fatherly influence as well. I always felt as though Luke probably could have saved his father if they had met away from the Emperor.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 25, 2022, Original Post Date: Nov 25, 2022 ---

Ok, well in that case, I take exception with Shadow of The Sith more so than TROS. When it comes right down to it, Canon or Not, I'm going to trust the Movie as it was presented over a more obscure book. (And by obscure, I mean it was vastly unknown in comparison to the movie) Point in hand- we know Rey was not Pure Light, she had acted in hate and anger. She sought revenge. So her being called Pure Light is just hooey. It's the over-glorification of the Hero.

 

Reach Palpatine?! Bahahahahaha! Have you been drinking?

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 26, 2022, Original Post Date: Nov 26, 2022 ---

There's nothing sad about killing magic space Hitler.

 

Not that she WOULD reach him, but that she would at least think it worthwhile. To have been benevolent enough to have given him the chance he didn't give her. "All you want is for me to hate, but I won't. Not even you." Well, prove it.

 

I think of the classic hero’s dilemma. The villain is hanging from a ledge. The hero can simply let him fall to his death and be done with him. But his intrinsic nobility won’t allow it. He has to help someone in peril, even the villain. So he lends his aide only for the villain to prey on that vulnerability and attack. This prompts the hero to revoke his aide and the villain then falls to his death.

The hero acted as a hero. The villain acted as a villain. The villain does perish, not at the hands of our hero, but as a result of his own villainy. That’s the general beat I believe the sequence is trying to approximate. The villain is vanquished, but our hero’s hands are ethically clean. The structure of it was just a touch off on account of making the decision to show her a little too ‘in’ to it. There’s little sense of “well, he left me no choice”.

I get that a lot of people are on the other vindictive side of that. They want the hero to dish out vigilante justice. But I don’t feel that mindset is compatible with the Star Wars’ ethos. There’s a reason the third film in the series pointedly changed the operative word in its title from ‘revenge’ to ‘return’. Because a Jedi doesn’t believe in revenge.

No one is pure good or evil. It’s all about the choices we make. The choice to care about others or not. Do we choose to spread kindness or do we spread misery.

I’d like to think that if Anakin hadn’t fallen he’d have left the order to live a simple life and perform general acts of public service. Rey has to contend with whether or not to rebuild the Jedi order. That’s a way bigger bar to clear. I expect whatever order she builds will be a reflection of her own value system. The one she cultivated on her individual journey to becoming a Jedi. And not one she inherited, like Luke.

 

And you're right. Honestly, it wouldn't have taken much to give even a slight contemplation or hesitation and it might have given Rey and her actions a bit more thoughtfulness. But let's face it, for whatever reason, they coulda/shoulda given more thought to several issues. If Rey's story continues, they can always address it.

 

Worthwhile?! Saving Palpatine?! Are you unaware of who we're talking about?

 

Except that he has a knife at the throat of the entire galaxy with his fleet of death star destroyers. And the only choice he's offering Rey is the chance to hold the knife herself.

Rey had all of the Jedi willing her to rise up and fulfill hers and the Jedi's destiny. You should not feel too ashamed of looking a bit into facing down and defeating implacable evil.

 

If you only stay true to your principles when it’s the most convenient for you, then what good are they?

Those aren’t the exact stakes at the moment Rey ensures his demise. Palpatine had already restored himself. He didn’t need her anymore. But, yeah, it’s kill or be killed. Rey is the only thing standing between Palpatine and the misery he intends to spread throughout the galaxy. Her acting as the shield that defends everyone from his wrath isn’t something I have any qualms with.

If the only way to preserve life is to take life, then so be it. But the taking of a life, any life, is still a regrettable act. Even when it’s necessary, it’s regrettable. It’s a very slippery slope you go down once you’ve justified it to yourself that some people genuinely deserve to die and that you should be happy it happened.

I don’t at all believe that’s what TROS was intending to say. But it’s a message that could be easily received.

 

Then there IS no choice.

That's not the same as being happy to kill someone.

It's academic since Rey's not the first good guy to appear somewhat into defeating the enemy never mind exalted at destroying them utterly. Literally every space battle has seen the vaporising of opposing ships and their pilots accompanied by whooping and smiles.

Besides. Her demeanour in that scene is best described as one of determination.

 

Right. We're saying the same thing then. If someone is coming at you with a knife and you have to shoot them to protect yourself, then you didn’t really have much choice in the taking of that life.

But that doesn’t then equate to being unaffected by the act of violently killing another person. You can still be compassionately regretful of having had to take that unfortunate action.

Are you saying the film made an effort to dissuade the audience from perceiving Palpatine’s death as something joyous and celebratory?

This isn’t every space battle though. It’s “all the Sith” versus “all the Jedi”. It’s the supreme expression of those competing ideologies. It’s the story’s ultimate commentary on what both opposing sides stand for and believe in. “Let your death be the final word in the story of rebellion.”

Certainly so. In fact, she shows an absolute unwavering resolve . . . in the direct sight of someone being horrifically and agonizingly disintegrated right in front of her. Yep, not fazed by that distressfully graphic vision of suffering one slight iota. My hero!!!

 

.Rey in and post TROS has been presented as some sort of unimpeachable goddess of perfection. She began the series as a flawed, shades of grey character, prone to violence. She attacked Finn the first time she met him, despite him being unarmed. She attacked Luke, also unarmed, from behind in TLJ. She stalked an injured Kylo in her fight with him on StarKiller in a manner many fans rightly pointed out resembled Anakin in ROTS. Luke himself warned her of her tendency to be drawn to the dark side.
It was this quality that made Rey an appealing heroine, she wasn't t perfect. She was a human being, with flaws. So was Luke, another reason I loved his character in the OT. But they decided to make her into a superhero without the humanity. She was adored by all who met her, had the power to heal - not even Chosen One Anakin could do that - and endeared herself to the Skywalkers to such a degree they happily replaced their own flesh and blood with her without a backward glance.

Supplementary material claimed she 'cleansed Kylo of the Dark' when she healed him (conveniently forgetting she was the one who stabbed him in the first place!) Then this from Shadow of the Sith (minor spoiler).
Rey. She was a wonder, she was magic, she was love, and she was light."

It was also emphasised in the book that unlike Ben Solo, in whom his mother sensed dark and light when he was still in the womb, Rey was born 'pure light'.

This idea of her being born perfect is a direct contrast with the same young woman who blew up a transport ship with Force lightning, which Darksiders use, the young woman who tended to react with violence when she didn't get her own way, and who shot down TIES and stormtroopers with no remorse and even pleasure - despite having a former one as a friend. It's as if DLF have decided suddenly that Rey isn't a human being at all, but some kind of superior life form. They are retconning her character, the way they retconned TLJ with TROS. One or two people pointed out that the ST turned into a superhero origin story rather than the closing chapters of a nine film saga. Rey's story is just beginning. Problem is, where can they go next with this 'paragon of virtue?'

 

CONTEXT: This line is taken from the perspective of Rey’s mother, Miramir. It’s how SHE sees her daughter. I’d absolutely describe my own daughter the same way. It doesn’t mean she’s some actual immaculate super being.

And the direct verbiage is intended to convey a contrast to the dangerous galaxy around her. She’s so thoroughly innocent, but the bigger world is so damned harsh and mean. You'd do anything to keep her safe from it. I can one hundred percent relate.

Remember, everybody. Don’t just operate from the clickbait headlines. Find the context. Find the intent. Think for yourself and deal with the reality of the thing rather than your own perception of it.