"Somehow, Palpatine..."

How far SW has come from: 'if you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine'

Interesting thing...it could also apply to the crucifixion of Christ.

 

Cloned bodies don't have a soul/current inhabitant. He can just posses them. No person to resist. If he gets her to hate him, he can just walk right in. It's not much different from only certain people being able to be possessed in horror movies. You're going out of your way to not get it imo.

 

It was a ham-handed attempt to placate all the SW fans who were disappointed to learn after TFA's set-up that Rey wasn't Luke's daughter afterall.

It didn't work.

 

I’m just saying that it’s too inconsistent to be interpreted as the same thing. In one instance, he needs an act of proactive dark intent on behalf of the host, and in another, he doesn’t. So, functionally, it doesn’t work as a ‘how’. These two spiritual transfers weren’t achieved by the same means.

Additionally, yeah, the symbolic underpinning is confused. The crux of the ritual is a dark reflection of the sequel trilogy’s emphasis on legacy: how both good and evil can live on in their respective influence. Evil is carried forward through acts of hatred while good is carried forward through acts of kindness.

What was the act of hatred that permitted evil to live on after it’s supposed defeat by kindness? What enabled that? What made that possible? The plot. The plot needed that to happen and so it did.

Not sure of the difference. The spirit of hatred will be passed on through an act of hatred. That’s the schtick.

Well, no, we aren’t “told” that. We’re inferring that based on the presentation. From context, we’re assuming that he’s probably a clone. That clone is seemingly breaking down and so he’s motivated to trade up and restore his power. Logistically, that tracks fine.

And I’m very happy for you for that

OK. But what is that saying about the persistence of evil with respect to the established themes of the series? Darkness only perpetuates because of our failings as virtuous influencers . . . except for when it doesn’t? Except for when there’s a weird mystical loophole evil can exploit? What’s the moral lesson in that?

I think you just handily undermined one of the essential elements of the Clone Wars series.

I get it fine. I'm explaining why it doesn't totally work for me.

 

My thoughts, actually.
I vividly remember them insisting that 'Kylo was the Skywalker, not Rey.' Abrams and Hidalgo were very firm on that. It's one of the reasons reylos were so convinced that Rey would end up marrying Kylo/Ben and become a Skywalker/Solo by marriage. Ridley also added to the speculation by saying that Rey and Finn were 'just friends'.

 

WTF is this gibberish? Rey can't kill the main villain because they're related? He's the epitome of evil and you're repulsed she killed him? Nonsense.

 

Nonsense...no, just Star Wars.

 

Inconsistent with what? With nature? Science? It's only inconsistent with what Palpatine wanted to happen, passing on his evil to the apprentice who strikes him down. And that is why he is not satisfied with the decaying clone he has been forced to resort to.

What Vader did on the Death Star was the same as what he did when he joined the dark side. He impulsively struck out because he was afraid of losing someone he was attached to. It wasn't him suddenly deciding to show an act of kindness. It was him finding the strength to do to Master Sidious what he did to Master Windu

It didn't need to be explicated. Palpatine would prefer being in the shape he was pre ROTJ, pre ROTS in fact. He's not Emperor of the galaxy. He's instead stuck in Exegol where his decaying clone clings on to existence.

The fact that cloning exists at all undermines Palpatine's desire to pass his spirit on to an apprentice like Anakin or Luke. Why not just clone himself indefinitely? ROTS shows us (without telling us. but in effect, it tells us) that cloning won't work. The existence of a decaying Palaptine clone in ROTS, which is inadequate and wishes to replace itself with an apprentice, as he had done in the original trilogy, closes a plot hole caused by the introduction of cloning to the saga in the prequels.

It's saying that cloning aint all it's cracked up to be.

ROTS is about Palpatine not wanting to be a clone. That should tell you what cloning is worth to the ideological and symbolic value of evil Sith Lords perpetuating their influence.

 

As I've said before, the problem with the ST is they left far too much of the story to be told in supplementary material. The excellent comic The Rise of Kylo Ren told far more of his backstory than any of the films, but not only did they wait until the ST had concluded to publish it, but also if you aren't into comics, can't afford it, or simply hate Kylo Ren - you aren't going to buy it.
TFA and TLJ weren't too bad...Johnson managed to get great performances from his cast, which helped at least to flesh out the history between Luke and Ben/Kylo somewhat, but TROS - here I am repeating myself yet again - seemed to start in the middle of things. We were never told how Palps came back, and to add to the confusion old Sheev himself kept changing his mind regarding what he wanted from Ben and Rey every five minutes! It didn't help things that they either were more concerned with retconning the stories told before - with TFA as well as TLJ - and altering the personalities and relationships of the characters. Poe for example, ended up a completely different person from who he was in TFA.

 

I think you will find that virtually nobody simply hates Kylo Ren. Relatively speaking.

We are literally told and shown that he had cloned himself.

 

The fact that cloning, which is well established in the Star Wars saga and doesn't need to be justified, again, is so casually invoked regarding "Palpatine"'s return, should give you an indication of how much real worth cloning has in the grand scheme of Sith Lords trying to regain domination of the galaxy.

A dormant character trapped in an unsuitable vessel awaiting fate and/or intervention in order for them to properly manifest both themselves and their power so that they can reclaim their position is a long-abused trope in fantasy and fairy tale. It often begins with them escaping and the heroes have to get them back to their dormant state. Or uses a weakened proxy to work their will leading up to the manifestation which the heroes then have to thwart or reverse.

In this version, Palpatine is already manifest as a clone (so that he can be a walking talking character and not just a disembodied voice or speaking through another, lesser character's mouth). But that clone is severely compromised. Falling to bits and stuck in the unknown regions. Cloning Sith Lords sucks. Like trying to reuse a tea bag.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 22, 2022, Original Post Date: Nov 22, 2022 ---

That's no accident. Unpleasant though it may seem to acknowledge it, the Judeo-Christian religions are based on blood sacrifice. The christian church was formed, in part, in order to refine and redefine the blood sacrifice aspects of belief and worship. The holy men used to be up to their knees in the blood of animal sacrifice. But if the almighty sends himself in the form of his own son, to be the sacrificial lamb. With the promise of rebirth for all those who observe. Then you will have conquered death.

That's the idea any way.

 

There is another forum I used to visit where the 'official Kylo Ren thread' really should have been name the 'we all hate Kylo Ren thread'...honestly. Any fan of his isn't so much as unwelcome as despised. Bit creepy actually!

 

The topic of this thread: “Somehow, Palpatine [returned]”. It was suggested that the explanation is coupled up with how he intended to revive himself in Rey. But those two concepts aren’t consistent with one another. They’re incompatible in premise.

One required a specific ritual, with specific conditions, be enacted. One, as far as we know, did not. One is a reflection of the broader moral framework of this series. One is not. Using one to explain the other isn’t logical. They’re similar ends achieved by dissimilar means.

You and I have vastly different interpretations of the climax of George’s story. I strongly feel that if Anakin’s final act is one made out of fear, then the whole fable collapses in on itself.

Anakin’s betrayal of the Jedi in ROTS is one motivated by selfishness. He’s afraid of losing his wife because of the grief he’d have to endure. He’s only thinking of himself. Anakin’s betrayal of the Sith in ROTJ is one motivated by selflessness. He’s protecting his son from anguish and death and willing to sacrifice his own life to do it. He’s only thinking of someone else.

Fear and anger led him down the path of darkness. Compassion and understanding led him back to the light. That’s the moral of the story: kindness defeating hatred. If his last deed is provoked by selfish fear, then congratulations, you just broke Star Wars.

Like I said, it tracks logistically for me fine. I’m not bewildered by the character’s motivation. That’s pretty clearly there on the screen and in the dialogue. The question isn’t about why he’d want to do that, but about how he was able to. What made it possible? What point is the storyteller trying to make with that?

This trilogy started off with the defeated Empire returning in a new, less powerful form. It’s goal is to regain what it had lost - to restore itself. It’s only able to do that though because it was allowed to by those who could have stopped it. There’s a POINT being made there: The fear of confronting evil is exactly what evil needs in order to thrive.

Palpatine survived his supposed demise because, as far as we know, that’s just a thing he could do. He’d secretly planned for it and there’s absolutely nothing anyone could have reasonably done to prevent it. Evil thrived all on its lonesome because it was really good at resource management and diversification. What point is that trying to make and how is it compatible with the one that was already established?

You wrote ‘ROTS’, but I’ll assume you mean TROS

The ‘transferring of spirits’ is something introduced in THIS movie. It wasn’t a long hanging plot hole that the guy could have done a data migration to a new body whenever he wanted. That’s a new wrinkle. And, again, I’m not talking about how lousy it is for him to survive as a clone. That he survived at all, and what made that possible, is the core of the discussion.

He could have survived as an inexplicable head in a jar and I’d still be asking the same question: What point are they trying to make with that? No matter what anyone ever thinks or says or does, evil (like life), always finds a way? Is that really compatible with the moral framework of this series?

 

He's not going to revive himself in Rey. She, or someone, is going to replace him. And it's not going to be the clone which justifies his participation in this movie. (Until the clone discovers that the convergence of the force that Rey and Ben form can revitalise him.)

He's afraid that Luke is going to die, like he was afraid that Padme was going to die. And acted at the last moment to prevent that from happening (or so he thought in the case of Padme). I don't see anything else that needs to be embellished or gotten out if it. The only thing that changed between ROTS and ROTJ was the person he stopped the second time was the one he saved the first time on the promise that he would save his family from "certain death".

Cloning exists.

And it ends by revealing a facsimile of the Emperor himself. In a less powerful form than that necessary for taking back control of the galaxy.

So what's the problem?

To describe why Palpatine wanted Luke to strike him down in ROTJ. To put an obstacle in front of what seems like the obvious solution of just confronting and whacking clone-Palps, and being done with it.

 

What always baffled me was the clones of Snoke were all hideous...definitely not new and improved!

 

“Kill me and my spirit will pass into you. As all the Sith live in me, you will be Empress. We will be one.” “She will take her revenge. And with a stroke of her saber, the Sith are reborn!” “I am all the Sith!”

Palpatine IS the Sith. His goal, at that moment anyway, is to pass his spirit into Rey - to revive himself. I’m not sure what part of that you’re tripping up on.

If that were true, then the character would have learned nothing and the whole story would be rendered meaningless.

You seem to keep consistently miss the point I’m presenting. I have to assume it’s on purpose at this rate.

OK, you’re almost there. The First Order and clone Palpatine exist as thematic parallels in the narrative, right? Right. And the reason the Empire was able to survive in that fashion and return was because it was allowed to, right? Right. Not because of any mystical science. Not because of really terrific redundancy planning. But because of the failing of real flawed human judgement. It’s a commentary on personal and societal folly.

Now, please stay with me on this, how does that impetus relate to the reason Palpatine survived? What’s the parallel? What’s the commentary?

Your assertion was that it addressed a plot hole created by introducing clones into the story. That’s what I was responding to. Palpatine, as far as we know, could have made a whole army of clones of himself. The issue was with sticking his soul in one. And that’s something we only knew was possible in this movie.

The actual point I was making is the bit you cut off which I’ll go ahead and repeat: I don’t care if he was a clone or a robot or hologram or a talking dog - I’m not referring to plot minutia. My interest in this element only runs as deep as it refers to the themes of the story. He survived. Cool. How did he do that and how does it relate to this didactic tail about morality?

The movie didn't appear to be interested in dealing with that. I wish it had. I would have appreciated it. I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else of anything. I'm explaining my perspective on a component of the story I found underwhelming and unsatisfying. Perhaps others feel the same.

 

Let's face it, the entire movie was nothing but ham-handed fan service. As a fan, I loved all the "Greatest Hits". Palpatine was the ultimate evil of the saga. They obviously couldn't write a character any more frightening than Snoke, so Palpatine gets the call.

Well that workspace was FILTHY. Kamino was nice and sterile so better quality clones... It's just like homebrewing beer- just a tiny bit of contamination will ruin the whole batch. Evil Despot Cloning is very similar.

 

They reminded me of well dried sultanas...all wrinkly and dried up.

 

I think they missed a real opportunity to tie-in the PT, and put Palpatine's evil spirit into the preserved body of Jar Jar Binks.

"Meesa so bombad Sith Lord..."

 

Here's the thing: If you are writing a 3-movie trilogy as a follow-up to the OTs, you give the audience a big baddie who is vanquished at the end of it all. But if your big baddie gets killed in the middle film, that leaves an awfully big void for JJ Abrams to fill. I assumed after TLJ that the obvious new big baddie for the third film was Kylo Ren. When it wasn't -- and was Palpatine instead -- it meant that JJ had to address a whole slew of new problems as well as address all the lingering ones that RJ left him with.

I can appreciate how a three-film story arc can evolve over the course of writing, directing, and editing the films. But never has there been a more convoluted story surrounding a trilogy of movies than this one was. After a somewhat promising start, it became (IMO) an absolute mess.