"Somehow, Palpatine..."

Very behind on the conversation, but my thoughts:

It’s a perfectly ok line that I didn’t even give a moments thought to the first time I saw TROS but then it got cherry-picked as an “example of bad writing,” turned into a meme and sits as one of the most infamous lines in all of Star Wars.

In the context of the film, with the information at hand to the characters, “somehow” is all they know. They don’t have the answers needed to provide context…

AND YET!!

They still manage to somewhat do it.

You would think given the reputation the line has, “Somehow Palpatine returned” is followed by a scene or topic change, but it isn’t. A character whose name I don’t recall jumps right in and provides possible answers to explain the mystery.

The discourse around the line is silly.

 

With the first bolded, I was being humorous, because that is what it looked like!

Regarding the second, that would have been fine, but Ben's 'love' for Rey didn't really work for me...and I used to be a 'reylo'. It did in TLJ, but they spent most of the first half of TROS trying to kill each other, therefore Ben suddenly 'saving' Rey just came across as 'clunky'. Even the kiss didn't really work...Ben died saving this woman who was 'precious' to him, then promptly snuffed it post snog! It's why it looked for all the world that the 'kiss' had sucked his life from him. And post his death, Rey showed not the slightest sign of being either grateful or mourning his passing. She never mentioned him again, neither to her friends or to the Resistance or anyone. Vader was mourned by Luke, Ben was mourned by no one.

It also left me thinking...just why would Ben feel anything for Rey? What had she done for him, for him to love her? Luke was Anakin's son, conceived in love with the woman who had been his life - and whose death was what really turned him into Darth Vader, more than Obi Wan's wounding and Sheev's 'suit'. Luke tried to turn his father back out of compassion and love. Rey went to Ben in TLJ so he could win the war for her. She did nothing for him, and before anyone says 'why should she', then why should he love her? She healed him out of guilt when she stabbed him, not love, and was far more concerned about the ramiifications for her soul than almost killing someone who supposedly cared about her. She didn't help him 'return to the light'. That was Leia's death.


The way their 'relationship' was handled in TROS was so poorly written it's one of the reasons I'm no longer a reylo. It didn't work, I'm sorry. I actually would have preferred it if Ben had lived and gone off on his own, rather than die saving Rey. No wonder it's rumoured Abrams didn't want the 'kiss'...he obviously didn't want 'reylo' either, and as a Ben/Kylo fan I would have exchanged Ben surviving for reylo any day.

 

Sorry for getting bothered over a joke then. I thought we were veering into the ‘alternative facts’ arena and jumped the gun. Apologies.

Yeah, TROS is trading a lot on the goodwill earned by TLJ. It’s assuming you’ve already accepted the ‘kindred spirit’ angle and are watching where that develops to. It doesn’t do much to reinforce the relationship itself. Which comes off pretty hallow.

Not really. Kylo, with the Palpatine reveal in his back pocket, is revitalized in swaying Rey to his side. Palps wants her dead. But that’s clearly not Kylo’s intention. He still wants a consort - someone just as broken as him he can brood and commiserate with. Someone who can reinforce his poor life decisions by making the same corruptive decisions. He’s an addict who wants to hook this girl he likes so they can both be addicts together.

Understandably, the Rey character doesn’t want this (would you?). She wants the ‘clean and sober’ Ben she’d caught a glimpse of before. Not the version of him strung out on junk (am I taking this analogy too far?). Which she eventually gets . . . for about five minutes.

The idea is that, like Luke and Leia, saving Rey took all he had left and the effort killed him. It’s clumsy to be sure. But I don’t know how else that scene could have played out and still delivered what they were aiming. Skip the kiss altogether, I suppose. It wasn’t really necessary. We already grasped that they had a deep spiritual connection. Adding romance to the mix doesn’t plus that. But it does heighten the drama. So that was probably the thinking.

The way his death plays out though, we see her observably upset, then transition to a look of understanding and relief when he begins fading away. I reckon they were going for a bittersweet tinge between loss and the comfort of ‘peace and purpose’ (like Luke’s death in TLJ). It was tangible (intangible?) proof he had indeed redeemed himself. To mourn him at THAT moment would have been tonally discordant.

The notable omission though is Ben’s spirit not showing up afterward at the end. Just a light nod toward ‘no one's ever really gone’ would have been nice. The implication that, although they’ve been separated, they’ll never truly be apart. I agree with you there. Odd choice to bring in the influential deceased and then intentionally leave him out.

Well, sort of. She didn’t want to accept the burden of being the hero of the story yet and was searching for someone more worthy than herself. That’s part of it. That’s the argument she makes to Luke. But she was also approaching Ben as a place of belonging and purpose. She looked for that with Luke and he rejected her. She looked for that in the mirror cave and it dejected her. But Ben offered to her mutually what she was seeking. What they both were seeking.

REY: I thought I'd find answers here. I was wrong. I'd never felt so alone.
BEN: You're not alone.
REY: Neither are you.

Rey’s trajectory in TROS is directly guided by her fear of using her power to hurt someone she cares about. She smashed up BB-8. She thought she’d killed Chewie. She tossed Finn. And the linchpin was mortally stabbing an unarmed Ben. That’s the moment that breaks her and sends her running.

Kylo’s goal was to push Rey so far that she would do something so awful she would have to admit she was just as rotten as him. Then they could be together. And Rey does indeed do something supposedly irredeemable. She kills him, basically. Not out of defense or protection, but pure transparent rage.

She gave in to her darkside just like he wanted. Just like Luke had when he cut off his father’s hand. And, just like Luke, she turned back. She came to her senses and acted out of compassion and mercy to heal him. She proved his perspective wrong. Just like Luke proved Vader’s perspective wrong. It’s possible to make a truly awful choice and then to make a far better one. It isn’t too late. That’s surely not the sole reason he turns back, but I personally believe it’s a pretty big part of it.

And you’re totally entitled to play that alternate scenario out in your head to whatever fulfilling conclusion works better for you. But you can still engage with the story that was presented and try to appreciate it on its own terms. I’m not particularly in love with TROS and its specific conclusion either, but I do appreciate the intention. I like what it was trying to do, even if it doesn’t totally get there.

 

I wish I could appreciate TROS, eep. But...I can't. Sadly there are some personal reasons for this, which are not appropriate here.

 

Fair enough. I still value your perspective and enjoy having these discussions

 

And thank you for your fairness....we might agree to disagree what we can still respect each other. That is to be respected.

 

You're analysing half a sentence.

It's said so in AOTC. Dooku explains that the Sith Lord had corrupted the senate for years (This is how Dooku was recruited in the first place). In TPM we see the TF providing Sidious with the context and the impetus to mobilise his corrupted senators to vote Vallorum out and Palpatine into power.

The context of a fairy story with clairvoyant wizards kind of undermines the comparison with how multinationals operate in real life.

The seemingly inexplicable blindness to the dark side is the subtext. It's never really acknowledged HOW they become complacent. They just are.


The objection to framing this argument in the context of the show not being obligated to show "how" Palpatine returned is kind of odd when the main focus of people's complaint is the line "Somehow Palpatine returned".

 

I compartmentalized a thought covering a number of ideas and addressed each one independently to demonstrate the individual flaws in logic.

Look, I get where you’re trying to go with this. A fantasy story doesn’t necessarily have to justify every fantasy conceit it introduces. At a certain point, you’re either able to suspend your disbelief and go along on the ride or you’re not. That’s the price of admission to this land of make-believe.

The trouble is you probably picked the worst possible example. A crooked politician greedily seeking his own selfish ambitions, is NOT a fantasy conceit. We actually have those. An amoral corporate entity that predatorially values profit over lives, is NOT a fantasy conceit. We actually have those. Private enterprises meddling in public institutions as ‘special interest groups’, is NOT a fantasy conceit. We actually have those. These examples are NOT ‘fantasy’. They’re ‘social commentary’. They’re parallels to our real world that you are supposed to recognize and comprehend the opinion being expressed.

A long dead dictator, rising from his grave to enact a horror filled revenge plot, is NOT a real thing. That’s pure fantasy. You either accept it or you don’t. A meaningful explanation for it could have helped some folks along in accepting it.

No, he doesn’t. I suggest you go back and listen to what’s actually said. I can provide you the transcript if you’d like. Dooku claims the Senate “was now under the control of the dark lord of the Sith”. Which is, as we know, an accurate statement. He provided no detail beyond that. Only that it related to why he'd become in cahoots with the Viceroy.

No. What we see is that the Trade Federation has an actual representative on the Galactic Senate. Think about that for a minute. This would be like if Amazon had representation in the United States Senate. It’s a private corporation with a direct authoritative hand in the legislative branch of government - proposing and passing laws. Laws on things like, oh, I don’t know, TRADE. THAT’S how cartoonishly corrupt the senate had become all on its own. Not from an evil wizard.

Palpatine didn’t do that. He exploited it to his advantage. He used it as a means to paint Valorum as a weak and ineffectual leader who would rollover for these influential backers. That’s the crux to Amidala’s appeal. “If this body is not capable of action, I suggest new leadership is needed. I move for a vote of no confidence in Chancellor Valorum's leadership.” Evidently, a majority of the senate bought in on the political theater and voted him out.

Definitely not. Again, this is intentional social commentary. It’s purposely in reference to real world analogues.

George Lucas has never been shy about letting people know that the central conflict that makes up the OT’s premise was expressly influenced by his anxieties over the war in Vietnam and his fears over President Nixon retaining his office beyond his term limit. Heck, even casual fans of Star Wars probably know by now that the battle between the Empire and Ewoks at the end of ROTJ was meant to be an analogy for how he interpreted the war between the U.S. and the Viet Cong. It was straightforward social commentary. The prequels were no different. He was pulling from the headlines then and expressing his anxieties there too.

You are certainly not obligated to engage with this fantasy story on that level if you don’t want. You can choose to ignore that whole layer and just enjoy the fantasia of it. But claiming that “it’s only a fairy story about wizards” with no premeditated real world parallelism, is fundamentally untrue. George put it in there for you to find. And he wasn't exactly subtle about it either.

‘Complacency’ IS the how though. How did the Jedi allow themselves to be in the position that enabled their demise? They’d become complacent. But how’d they become complacent? The same way anyone does. Not having been challenged for generations, they grew secure in their dominance and stopped questioning it. Tada.

Questioning how the Jedi had become so convinced of their faultlessness isn’t the same thing as questioning how a very VERY dead man is able to come back to life. There’s a continent sized gulf between those two things.

It’s a fairly simple concept. Palpatine’s return isn’t an incidental background detail to the story. It’s THE inciting incident. It’s what motivates everyone into action. The movie doesn’t happen without it. And, by extension, through retrospect, the entire sequel trilogy doesn’t happen without it.

It’s the keystone event at the center of a three film series. It isn’t weird for people to be curious about how that might be possible and to then be disappointed to find out that it was really only ever thought out as a plot convenience. Are you genuinely unable to appreciate that perspective?

 

"SoMeHOw PaLpaTinE hAs ReTurNEd" is an invalid criticism for the reasons you stated. to Poe is talking to his friends and allies, not us. It's disingenuous to pretend otherwise The people who do it are anti-Disney Lucas Loyalists. We already got our explanation. It came right in the opening act:

 

“We build too many walls and not enough bridges” - Sir Isaac Newton

 

I don't care who likes what movies or shows in the series. Doesn't bother me at all. People can like what they want. I do care when people who ate up everything Lucas produced regardless of quality won't shut up about DiSnEY.

 

"All too easy....

Obviously, da kidz made PSA's over the holonet that muh big bad Sith Lords iz ded right after Endor.

Then, they started teaching Sith Lore & the Art of Dark Magicks (Now with Cloning!!) at Core World Schools in Leia Solo's New Republic.

It is the only way."

 

For me:
The line itself, it's delivery, context,etc... is completely fine. In that moment, no explanation is needed. It has become so well-worn because it's emblematic of what the fandom felt. THAT is the best explanation we've been given?

When I first heard that iconic cackle in the trailer for TROS, it swept me up and back to my childhood. What?! Him?! How?! He was the boogey-est of all boogeyman. But we all saw him definitely die. He was old and crackly already and then Vader/Anakin threw him down a space pit. There was an explosion and a whoosh of air. Then they blew up the damn building!!! He was dead. But now he's back? Boy, this is gonna be good, I wonder how did he come back? And we got "Somehow, Palpatine returned." That's it.

Now, I'm not someone who thinks that the producers "owe" us anything, or that somehow they're indebted to tell us a story that we approve of. However... personally I took it as a lack of respect to fans who do follow this saga so religiously. Didn't need much. Two or three minutes to tell a story. Was there a lab full of Palpatine clones? He didn't look like a clone... Was the Imperial trampoline room at the end of that pit? Could he fly? Hey, Darth Maul was brought back via a RIDICULOUS story, but we choked it down and digested it. The whole Palpatine return left me feeling like I was being patted on the head and being told, "don't you worry how, just sit back and watch how cool this looks".

 

Yeah, the counter position of “but, why would anyone expect Poe to know that?” is a strawman argument. It’s like saying “I don’t care what anyone says, it’s wrong to put puppies in woodchippers.” Well, yeah, I think we can all get behind that sentiment. But who the hell was actually arguing for that? Nobody.

Nobody ever expected Poe “Bigass Door” Dameron to actually know how the evil space wizard returned from the dead. That was never the issue.

 

Right. That's what I mean. It would have been grossly out of place if Poe, especially in that moment, had given even a vague explanation.

The use of that line as a meme, at least to me, was simply taking it out of one context (within the story) and reusing it in a different context. It isn't a condemnation of the line itself- which I thought was the point of this thread.

 

You know....watching this clip reminds me once again that we begin TROS...halfway through the story!

 

In other words, it didn't service the fans sufficiently.

 

Well, 2/3 of the way through at any rate

 

What is missing that you think needs to be seen?

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 19, 2022, Original Post Date: Nov 19, 2022 ---

No, it wasn't That's what Poe is telling the Rebels. The audience's explanation comes in the opening act:

 

Where do you start?
How in the name of sanity Sheev Palpatine managed to survive being thrown down a nuclear reactor as apparently Sith do not come back as FGs, so how was his eeevil spirit able to come back and get his hands on a clone? How come neither Leia or Luke sensed Palps was back YEARS before he was strutting around on Exegol? Who were the people Kylo was fighting when he went to see Palps? How did Kylo manage to convince Hux and his entire army that Rey had not only killed Snoke, but kicked the snot out of him yet again AND killed his guards all on her onesie?

There were so many plot holes and loose ends in this film it was a joke. Luke actually told Rey he 'didn't know her' yet we are supposed to accept he'd known all along about who her family were. Her parents were supposed to be 'good people' yet left her with a slave master. We never found out how Leia managed to surround herself with new allies when there were hardly any members of the Resistance left, or why everyone came to help when Lando asked for it yet not Leia. Why in the name of sanity did Anakin come running to Rey's aid but not his grandson's?
The characters were completely rewritten to suit what Terrio and Abrams wanted to put on screen....Luke refused to kill his father way back in ROTJ because 'blood is thicker than water', yet in TROS here he is telling Rey that blood didn't matter. Force healing was never canon in the films, and it shouldn't have been because if it was around, Anakin would have simply known he could use it to save Padme rather than selling his soul to Sidious. And in any case...how come Luke, the Greatest Jedi Master of All, not know how to use it? 'Jedi Leia' was ridiculous, adding that in at the last minute was completely unnecessary except as to give Rey a trainer.
She could have had FG Luke.

If they wanted to retcon TLJ, they at least could have tried to do it properly.