"Somehow, Palpatine..."

You just answered your own question. So you have seen the movie. The how is reinforced later in the movie when he says he wants her to to kill him so he can possess her bod. The movie is plain as can be.

 

So Palpy’s clone killed him out of hatred then and that’s how he was able to possess that new body?

 

Palpatine never fell down a reactor shaft. He fell down the tower that his throne room sat atop of. If he supposedly fell down to the reactor, from the highest point on the death star's summit, that's a fall of at least a few thousand kilometers. Which would take several hours. The mysterious light show and mini tornado appear immediately once Palpatine was out of sight, mere seconds after being hurled over the side by vader.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 19, 2022, Original Post Date: Nov 19, 2022 ---

It's conceivable that., at a pinch, a Palpatine clone is so inherently hateful that his spirit would find it desirable to possess whether it had struck him down in hatred or not.

But the movie also makes it clear that this is not sustainable.

 

Yes, I saw TROS, although I wish I hadn't!

 

What I’m referring to is the inherent ideological messaging. The ritual introduced at the end of the film is defined by the condition of Rey killing him out of “hatred” - out of “revenge”. It’s an act of violence committed for vicious reasoning. It’s a metaphor for the persistence of evil.

Evil perpetuates by perpetuating the cycle of violence and hatred. That’s how it endures and survives. Its ‘specter’ is passed forward through those who would give in to that same corruptive propulsion toward vengeance and aggression. Hatred begetting more hatred.

It stands in contrast to the counterbalance of gentleness and compassion we see demonstrated through the acts of ‘healing’ from our heroes in the film. Kindness begetting more kindness. Reciprocity (negative versus positive).

From what was presented though, it seems Palpatine was able to shunt his hateful spirit into a new standby body because . . . secret dark science, I guess. The metaphor doesn't really apply. Evil didn’t require the sacrifice of virtue to live on here. It did it all on its own. It self-perpetuated.

So, no. The explanation we get at the end of the film does not explain the ‘how’ of Palpatine’s return. They’re two different conceptual things. One required the surrender of righteousness and reflects the broader themes of the series. One just happened because the plot needed it to.

 

Palpatine's clone killed who out of hatred?

He wanted to posses Rey because his cloned body was barely holding up. It was being held together with duct tape and glue. He wanted a new, young, healthy body.

 

You know....Rey was supposed to be the ST's next best thing to Luke, but Luke was at heart, a pacifist. The OT ended with him choosing not to kill his own father, and ultimately his choice saved the galaxy.
TROS ended with Rey killing her own grandfather. She was the anti Luke.

 

Right. And the way he says that works is by that person killing him in hatred. But that’s obviously not what happened with clone situation though. So, how is what’s happening with Rey any sort of explanation for how he managed to come back?

That clone body certainly didn’t kill him in hatred, right? So it’s not actually the same thing, right?

I don't totally disagree. I personally wish the climactic victory of good over evil had been an unpresented act of mercy rather than violence. But the idea is that she's acting as a shield that's defending the defenseless and it's Palpatine's own hatred that destroys him. It's the optics of it, I feel, that aren't that great.

 

Just to step back into the lunacy... Neither side of this debate are arguing a point that in any way should be considered a reasonable explanation. If that Thing on Exegol was Palpatine's immortal spirit in a clone body, then why was he installed into a decrepit body to begin, and why not acquire or create a more durable vessel, like Vader or Grievous? Secondly, if it's an "optics" issue, how is it ok for a crusty old evil wizard to covet a new, younger body, but it's not ok for that intended victim to kill said wizard in self-defense because of some alleged genetic relation? The whole premise is silly and really doesn't fit into the story, and hopefully it will dull with age. I mean, Star Wars survived Jar Jar Binks, we can survive just about anything.

 

My assumption was that the body didn’t start out decrepit. Basically, they were trying to pour 20lbs of evil into a 10lbs bag. The designer body couldn’t withstand Palpy’s extra icky spirit and was slowly withering away.

That was the point of Snoke, yeah? They kept trying, but never got there. That’s why Kylo/Rey were in the mix.

When I say “optics” I mean in reference to how Rey’s “self-defense” is presented. The character clearly perceives that her actions are inflicting serious injury. She then steps into her deflection at the end and knowingly makes a deliberate final push she knows will kill. She literally used hatred to defeat hatred. It’s an oddly brutal visual tone to strike when the whole thrust of this morality tale is about the elevation of compassion over cruelty.

As far as the genetic relation, I don’t care too much about that beyond the humanizing element of it. Part of the significance of the Luke character discovering that the abominable Vader figure was his father was the realization that Darth Vader was indeed a human being. He’s not an entirely unfeeling machine. He was a man who had a son. Luke could then relate to him as an actual person and not as an inhuman nightmare monster. He could have empathy for him.

We discover this grotesque manifestation of the dark side went and had himself a granddaughter, but Rey still never views him as anything more than an otherworldly boogeyman. It doesn’t inspire any sort of empathy but unequivocal revulsion.

Personally, I really really love the zombie Palpatine premise. I just wish they’d worked harder to better tie it in to the larger themes the movie was already doing a decent job at promoting.

 

This.

I remember how moving the climax of ROTJ was....when Luke threw away his sabre and told Palps he would not kill his own father, it made me want to stand up and cheer.
When Rey killed her grandfather with two lightsabres and a snarl on her face...it repulsed me.
Maybe other people see it in a different way, but for me that final scene completely betrayed the entire spirit of SW. TLJ got a lot of criticism, but I found it true to the spirit of the OT....Luke had become jaded over the years but contrary to what so many think....he was still Luke.
He won with love.
He wouldn't kill his father....and he refused to harm his nephew. The final scene of TLJ proved without a doubt that his apparent attempt on Ben's life was nothing of the sort...as Luke said, a fleeting shadow brought about by human doubts, human frailties. The tragedy of Anakin is that the vision he had through the Force of his wife dying was that her death was brought about by his actions to save her. The tragedy of Ben's fall was that it was as a result of Luke's 'vision' that he would fall. Both men saw what the consequences of their actions would bring about, but didn't realise it until it was too late.

The Force was warning Anakin of how close he was growing to the treacherous Sidious. It was warning Luke that the constant fear he, Han and Leia had of their son and nephew falling was destroying their love for him...and actually pushing him towards the darkness.
Watching TROS made me realise that for all their apparent love of the franchise neither Terrio or Abrams truly knew what it was about...the power of love versus the destructiveness of hate. Luke defeated the Emperor with love. Rey with hate. Luke threw away his weapon. Rey used not one but TWO weapons.

I often think that it should have been Ben who destroyed Sidious...saving Rey from having to kill her own grandfather, and Rey who brought him back, thus having Ben atone for his sins by almost dying, and Rey giving him new life. Instead they had Rey kill her grandfather and with that one act erase the message of love, hope and forgiveness that the saga was built upon. That is what really ruined the ST at least for this fan. It didn't help much that despite the violence of Rey's actions DLF still want we, the audience to see her as a superior being, the Balance of the Force made flesh.

It's such a twisted way to end the Skywalker Saga. I'm sorry.

 

All of this hinges on holding Rey to the standard of the Jedi Order. Even then, the Jedi played fast and loose with their rules. Anakin executed Dooku after he had surrendered and that garnered little more than a dirty look from Obi Wan. One of the constant threads from episode 1 through 9 is the failure of the Jedi at their own hands. Just about every Jedi that survived Order 66, and everyone trained since then have lived with varying versions of Jedi doctrine. Luke seemingly tried to rebuild the Order, and well... If you view this movie and the ST entirely as not just the End of The Skywalker Saga, but the end of The Jedi as we know them, it makes sense. Rey has realized the danger of trying to walk such a narrow path. Balance isn't only necessary in the Galaxy, but within each person. The Rise of Skywalker means the Fall of The Jedi. Luke was the Last Jedi and Rey sees a clearer path forward to use The Force for right and good without all the "hokey religion and mumbo jumbo" as a wise man once put it.

 

The Skywalkers did not rise...they fell. There aren't any left.
The idea of the 'name' continuing when the family are all gone is putting it bluntly, ridiculous. It isn't a title, like Captain America or IronMan. It's the name of an extinct family.

The idea of reimagining 'Skywalker' as some kind of order is one of the very silly plot devices in TROS.

 

Ok well they're physically dead, but not what they fought for and believed in. Sometimes all we have to go with is what we're given. If we are to Believe that "Palpenstein" was the embodiment of every Sith, we were also told that "every Jedi was inside of Rey." As far as the name, I don't think or even like the idea of Skywalker being a title, but I also don't see an issue with an orphan taking on the name of a family that she felt a kinship to. She was definitely more Skywalker than Palpatine. Luke was raised by the Lars. Leia by the Organas. Ben was a Solo. They were Skywalker by blood and they were a family unit. Rey had zero memories or reason to relate to Palpatine that way. She related that name to the one who killed her parents. "I am Rey Skywalker" makes a statement that explains who she is and will invoke reverence. "I am Rey Palpatine" would bring a vastly different reaction.

 

There is just one small difference....
When Leia and Luke were adopted, they were children.
Rey is a grown woman, an adult. And let's face it, why choose the name Skywalker? She knew Luke for five minutes, and they didn't get on very well during that meeting. She could have called herself Organa after Leia, who was her 'mentor' for a year. Or even Solo, after Han. who she did get on with and who came with Finn to rescue her.

Rey becoming Rey Skywalker owes more to Terrio having a crush on Luke and Leia as a couple when he was a kid, hence him showing them together as FGs, plus DLF throwing a 'sop' to Skywalker Saga fans for killing them all off.
'Hey guys...sorry we wiped out the heroes' and their bloodline, but guess what? The last Palpatine has taken their name, hip hip hooray!'

They should have left her as Rey Nobody. Why oh why they decided to make her a Palpatine is beyond me. And neither 'hopeful' or 'satisfying'.

 

I think you are overemphasising the "ritual" and its supposed ideological significance. There is actually no ritual as such. And nothing really to hang to much significance on except the idea that evil doesn't die even if you kill it. The danger of becoming what you destroy.

There is just a transference of some sort when a Sith lord, or at least whatever Palpatine/Sidious is, is killed. Ideally it would be transferred to the willing and suitable apprentice who killed him. Things didn't work out that way in ROTJ. But Palpatine was able to make do with a clone of himself but it is obvious, and spelled out in the movie, that this is far from ideal and is actually not sustainable.



Jedi often have snarls on their faces when they are fighting.

And by fighting you are referring to her defending herself from and deflecting back her grandfather's force lightning. AND it killed her.

 

At the beginning, Rey is nothing. She's not grown. She is noone.
She has no name, she's a scavenger who digs through the filth to survive. She deserves no regards, see how Unkar treats her.

Then, she's given an initiatory journey and a knowledge. She discovers skills inside herself. She becomes somebody.

Furthermore : she later learns she has a grand-father, thus, she has a family. Okay, she's the granddaughter of the most evil lifeform in the Galaxy.

When she finally faces Palpatine on Exegol, she has grew up, found his way, and even got a name : Rey Palpatine. She's become somebody.
Here is "the rise of skywalker" coming : Rey does not accept his parentage. The Jedi Light flows trough her. Following the rise of the best of them, she decides to change her side, she decides to counter-attack his parentage : she so refuses the name of Palpatine to take that of Skywalker. The acquired has won over the innate. You can be born clouded by dark forces ; nonetheless, if you want to, you can become a good person.
This is the message Rey delivers to us. This is the Rise of Skywalker : you're neither predestined nor your fate nailed, you can escape your destiny, if you want to.

 

Nice message....but it was done before, and far better, with Luke.

 

The whole justification behind Leia searching out her weirdo vanished brother (the inciting incident for the entire trilogy) was so he could “restore a spark of hope to the fight”. Because the name Luke SKYWALKER is, in and of itself, a symbol of inspiration.

It’s known by all and revered by all. That’s the purpose for that last scene in TLJ: The most powerless of the powerless are roused to heroic aspirations after hearing the legendary exploits of Luke SKYWALKER, Jedi Knight. It’s the fulfillment of Leah’s wish.

When Rey adopts that name, she isn’t just joining a family line, she’s announcing to the same galaxy, that was inspired by Luke, that she’s the new hope. “There's been no one for so long.” Hope was lost and now it’s found.

Granted, TROS all but forgets that this was the driving force behind the previous two movies, but this last moment is the connective through line linking them up.

They made the “no one” premise an active choice rather than a passive one. Rey’s father rejected the name and its legacy and decided being nobody was better than being Palpatine’s son. Rey honors her father’s choice and elevates it by transitioning from a ‘no one’ into the most recognizable identity possible.

Maybe the execution could have been better, but the premise itself is pretty sound.

Hey, we all come at this from different perspectives. For me, Star Wars is an allegory. Its characters and circumstances are representational of moral concepts. Mostly because that’s what George Lucas said it was. So I think I’m playing pretty fair here.

When the arch villain of the piece explicitly says that the way his spirit is reborn in a new host is through an act of hateful violence, and that our hero refuses to hate, I don’t think I’m reading too much into what the intended message there is.

 

Yeah but you seem to be protesting that his spirit being reborn is dependent on a ritual, but can be transferred into his clone also, undermining the ideological, symbolic importance of the ritual.

He actually says that the Sith that will be reborn, once she strikes him down and becomes the new Sith lord. Not that his spirit will be reborn.

His spirit will be actually and/or symbolically transferred to the apprentice who strikes him down. Vader's sacrifice prevented that from happening in ROTJ. But we are told that his clone was adequate for his spirit to cling on to existence long enough for a suitable apprentice to be seduced in to fulfilling Vader's assumed destiny.

I don't think the storyline of Palpatine's clone undermines or fudges the symbolic value of the rites of the Sith lord succession. The spirit of Sidious possessing a decaying failed clone of himself clearly wasn't sufficient for him to declare the Sith reborn at that time.