The Snoke Schism

I just re-watched this movie yesterday. It was the first time I saw it since I saw it in theaters.I gotta say, I really don't have a problem with the character at all. He gets about as much character development and screen time as Palpatine. I think the entire throne room scene simply awesome, as was his death. I think the only reason people are annoyed – if not thrown off – about his death is that it occurred in the second movie and not the final act.

 

The problem most people have is because they think he should have more exposition than Palpatine in the OT. I think some of that is because there has been a whole trilogy that deals with Palpatine so we now have more information about him. This creates in some people the belief that more info on him is needed. Snoke ended up being a character that helped move along the development of Kylo. He is not the main character that many invisioned and I think that causes problems in some people’s minds as well. Personally, I too do not have a problem with how Snoke was portrayed

 

How could you say he's not a main character though given the circumstances we're currently in? The Empire was defeated. This person or being recreated it essentially. Why did he? Who is he? Where was he all these years? I think that's important given where we're at in the saga in this 9-part saga and given the fact that his work basically undid all of our heroes' work in the OT.

Once again, if you were to watch Episodes 1 through 9, the entire story makes sense and is connected up until the point you get to episode 7, and the disconnection is due to the creation of the First Order after we were told evil was defeated.

We didn't need a Palpatine explanation, because that was the starting point of the story. We were dropped into a brand new universe and it wasn't crazy for a viewer to believe that an Empire had an Emperor running things. In this case though, we were told the dark side was defeated, but now we have a random darkside user that popped up out of nowhere leading things with no explanation as to why or how.

 

It is pretty funny that we’re two episodes deep and still haven’t gotten a concise in-movie motive for the First Order. They want to rule the galaxy, because . . . it’s so darn disorderly? Too many people aren’t sorting their laundry properly? They’re a bunch of genocidal life coaches? They know they’re the bad guys and that’s just what bad guys do? A bit much is left to the audience to infer.

We never had to ask this question in the OT because the Empire was already the governing authority. Their goal wasn’t conquest, but maintaining what was already conquered. That’s what they wanted: to eliminate what threatened their way of life. That’s a relatable, although non-condonable, reason. Given what’s presented in the actual movies, why does the FO care about galactic domination?

The answer, if I’ve interpreted right, is that they fancy themselves the rightful inheritors of the galaxy. The Empire, their forefathers (so to speak), were unjustly ousted and they’re simply taking back what’s theirs. Very odd that hasn’t been a focus so far. Like, at all.

But how does/did Snoke play into that premise? Doesn’t seem like he was former Imperial. He’s some random mangled warlock that this army nation put in charge for some reason. Because he was even ickier looking than Palps? I don't personally care about the character, but it isn't unreasonable for fans to want some kind of connective tissue here. Very messy.

 

For people bent out of shape about Snoke backstory not being told in TLJ. I need to ask lets say Snoke didnt die in TLJ would you feel any different? My point really is did you need a point in the movie to know where Snoke came from. Could it wait until EP9 with or without Snoke being alive?

 

Interesting question. Here’s another. Given where we currently are in the trilogy, what tangible benefit to the story is it that Snoke was a Force user? Honestly. What if the Supreme Leader of the First Order was a traditional military dictator? Like a more charismatic version of Tarkin or a tyrannical version of Mon Mothma? How much massively different would the story actually be?

Ben Solo didn’t necessarily need a spooky goblin whispering in his ear for his insecurities and fears of abandonment and inadequacy to bait him to the darkside. He could have believably gotten there by himself. Rey and Kylo, after brain linking in TFA, didn’t necessarily need the pantsless wonder to bridge their minds. They could have believably gotten there by themselves.

So, what irreconcilably integral part of this story so far absolutely necessitated that the version of Snoke we got be some shadowy, magical, mystery man?

 

I had a look inside.

 

It's a good idea. But perhaps something other than human? Not too alien though. I don't know... just give him blue skin or something, and have him be a high ranking admiral from the 'old' order of the Empire. Like maybe a 'grand' admiral even.

 

Really what fear would Rey and Kylo have over just an Admiral. Sorry in the Star Wars universe a Jedi and a Sith (all but name only) would have no fear of an Admiral. To have it play out the way you suggest the Admiral would have to be surrounded by troops (not a handful of guards) for him/her to survive.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 21, 2019, Original Post Date: Mar 21, 2019 ---

So you are talking about the whole trilogy not TLJ. That is good, because TLJ had no responsibility to say hold up on the story lets go back in time and tell you how we got here. That is really what people are asking for. I for one believe that most of the world building had already been done through the PT, OT and other media. I do believe the ascendancy of Snoke will be an interesting story to read/watch some day, but never have felt the need of it before the story can continue. I also never felt that it had to be told in TLJ. I also feel if we get any of it in EP9 then it should come from Kylo point of view. Not from some monologue from Snoke. Kylo may do some soul searching and think back/flash back on his past. Dont see any reason why Snoke would have done it in TFA or TLJ. Never was going to have a scene where Snoke goes let me tell you about myself.

 

Kylo doesn’t follow Snoke and swear allegiance to his cause because he’s afraid of him. It’s because he respects him, “The Supreme Leader is wise”. It’s because this mentor figure provided a purpose and belonging to a disillusioned and angry youth at a time when he was desperate for both. Kylo isn’t concerned with getting zapped, but disappointing his surrogate father. The Force element makes that premise easier, but it isn’t necessary at all.

As far as Rey, her personal conflict is presented as centric to her opposition to Kylo. Whether or not she’s physically threatened by his boss is totally irrelevant to that.

 

Snoke needed to be a force user because Kylo is a force user. Kylo would not be manipulated by a non force user. I don’t think he would blindly follow some non force FO leader. Kylo a powerful Force user overthrowing some regular Joe would have not had the same affect as overthrowing another powerful Force user.

I have a question to throw out there. Especially for those who are upset with a lack of Snoke back story but everyone can feel free to chime in. If we get a few lines of exposition in IX describing where Snoke came from will you be satisfied? Or does it need to be in greater detail?

 

Look the OT didnt give us the backstory of the emperor. I know some will say, but, but this is different. It is a different era. 1. I dont buy that and 2. imagine how less satisfying it would have been for the emperor back story in OT was a couple of sentences of dialogue.

Someone: Where did you come from?
Emperor: Well I tricked people into making me Emperor,
Someone: Ok thanks for the info.

 

Disagree. Palpatine (for example) didn’t worm his way into Anakin’s trust with space magic. He did it by being one of the only people that Anakin could be himself with. Emotional manipulation has a VERY powerful influence on the vulnerable…and actually exists.

Kylo’s “power” isn’t what’s on display when betraying Snoke. He stabs the guy in the back (side (backside?)). The point in that scene isn’t who can beat up who. It’s that one character has outgrown the other. He’s killing his past in order to become what he was meant to be. Like with his real father, Han. Like with his teacher, Luke. Snoke is only another paternal figure there for him to remove so (he thinks) he can evolve. Again, you don't need the Force for that. It's relatable enough already .

 

While true he didn't directly use "the force", Palpatine used Anakin's belief in the force being all-powerful to undermine it. He used his own knowledge/power of the force to manipulate Anakin.
If they did the same for Kylo Ren....it'd be an even bigger issue with the "re-hash" claims.

 

Palpiekens: And so, they've finally given you an assignment. Your patience has paid off.
Anniepoo: Your guidance more than my patience.
Palpomatic: You don't need guidance, Anakin. In time, you will learn to trust your feelings. Then you will be invincible. I have said it many times: "You are the most gifted Jedi I have ever met".
Anakonda: Thank you, your Excellency.
Palpfiction: I see you becoming the greatest of all the Jedi, Anakin. Even more powerful than Master Yoda.

What Mr. Sidious is effectively doing here is romancing little orphan Annie. Wooing him. He’s diminishing the guardians, stoking pride, and positioning himself as a support system: classic predatory tactics. The Force isn’t in play here, just old fashioned, textbook exploitation.

OBReal: Palpatine's a politician. I've observed that he is very clever at following the passions and prejudices of the Senators.

Little Bennie Solo? He was thrown away by his parents and betrayed by his teacher. Wouldn’t take much for Snokie the Bear to sell himself as a ‘safe place’.

“Rhyming”, @RoyleRancor. We’re supposed to call it “rhyming”

 

I was referring more towards this:

 

Yes Palpatine seduces Anakin without directly using the Force. I am talking more about how Kylo and Rey respected/feared Snoke. Couple posts back was said that Kylo didnt use the Force to take out Snoke. Although I disagree with that. Lets imagine had Snoke just been some military leader.

Snoke: Kylo it is time for you to stop being such a freaking looser and kill her.
Kylo: You know I am sick of all your abuse you ftard. Kylo walks over and strikes Snoke down with light saber.

Not nearly as interesting is it.