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The Snoke Schism

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Sparafucile, Jan 19, 2019.

  1. kuatorises

    kuatorises Clone Commander

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    I just re-watched this movie yesterday. It was the first time I saw it since I saw it in theaters.I gotta say, I really don't have a problem with the character at all. He gets about as much character development and screen time as Palpatine. I think the entire throne room scene simply awesome, as was his death. I think the only reason people are annoyed – if not thrown off – about his death is that it occurred in the second movie and not the final act.
     
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  2. Jedi MD

    Jedi MD Force Attuned

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    The problem most people have is because they think he should have more exposition than Palpatine in the OT. I think some of that is because there has been a whole trilogy that deals with Palpatine so we now have more information about him. This creates in some people the belief that more info on him is needed. Snoke ended up being a character that helped move along the development of Kylo. He is not the main character that many invisioned and I think that causes problems in some people’s minds as well. Personally, I too do not have a problem with how Snoke was portrayed
     
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  3. Darth Geezy

    Darth Geezy Clone

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    How could you say he's not a main character though given the circumstances we're currently in? The Empire was defeated. This person or being recreated it essentially. Why did he? Who is he? Where was he all these years? I think that's important given where we're at in the saga in this 9-part saga and given the fact that his work basically undid all of our heroes' work in the OT.

    Once again, if you were to watch Episodes 1 through 9, the entire story makes sense and is connected up until the point you get to episode 7, and the disconnection is due to the creation of the First Order after we were told evil was defeated.

    We didn't need a Palpatine explanation, because that was the starting point of the story. We were dropped into a brand new universe and it wasn't crazy for a viewer to believe that an Empire had an Emperor running things. In this case though, we were told the dark side was defeated, but now we have a random darkside user that popped up out of nowhere leading things with no explanation as to why or how.
     
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  4. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    It is pretty funny that we’re two episodes deep and still haven’t gotten a concise in-movie motive for the First Order. They want to rule the galaxy, because . . . it’s so darn disorderly? Too many people aren’t sorting their laundry properly? They’re a bunch of genocidal life coaches? They know they’re the bad guys and that’s just what bad guys do? A bit much is left to the audience to infer.

    We never had to ask this question in the OT because the Empire was already the governing authority. Their goal wasn’t conquest, but maintaining what was already conquered. That’s what they wanted: to eliminate what threatened their way of life. That’s a relatable, although non-condonable, reason. Given what’s presented in the actual movies, why does the FO care about galactic domination?

    The answer, if I’ve interpreted right, is that they fancy themselves the rightful inheritors of the galaxy. The Empire, their forefathers (so to speak), were unjustly ousted and they’re simply taking back what’s theirs. Very odd that hasn’t been a focus so far. Like, at all.

    But how does/did Snoke play into that premise? Doesn’t seem like he was former Imperial. He’s some random mangled warlock that this army nation put in charge for some reason. Because he was even ickier looking than Palps? I don't personally care about the character, but it isn't unreasonable for fans to want some kind of connective tissue here. Very messy.
     
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  5. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    I think what annoys me the most with Snoke's lack of story, is that his backstory could have addressed the greatest weakness of the ST so far... world building. Even those who love the ST and TLJ mostly admit that world building is an issue. Snoke seems like he's the link to that world building issue. By learning about him, we'd by extension learn about the state of the galaxy since RotJ.

    Mostly, I don't care about Snoke the person, because most of his backstory that people seem to be complaining about could be dealt with in a throw away line or two. My issue is the missed opportunity to use Snoke's backstory to set the stage and add to the world building of this era. It could be done without Snoke, but Snoke seems like such a logical choice to use in the world building due to his influence on most if not all of the main characters that it baffles why they didn't utilize him in this way.

    I can't help but feel that the missed opportunity comes from rushed writing. It would be great if IX could address this within the context of the story it's trying to wrap up, by incorporating it within the story somehow that makes it feel like it was meant to be told this way looking back at the entirety of the trilogy. I can't see how it can be done at this point, but admittedly the people at LFL are far more qualified to tackle such a challenge then I am. I'm just not sure if it's a priority, part of the plan all along, or a blind spot and I'll only know after IX comes out.

    Maybe the vagueness on Snoke has a role to play in IX to give us an "AHA!/Eureka!" moment in IX. If it doesn't, I'm afraid the missed opportunity, the lack of world building will be a constant criticism of the ST just like the acting/chemistry, dialogue and cringy overused CGI will be for the PT. It's possible I'll come to appreciate aspects of it in retrospect just like I did the PT, but that won't take away from those inherent weaknesses.
     
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  6. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    For people bent out of shape about Snoke backstory not being told in TLJ. I need to ask lets say Snoke didnt die in TLJ would you feel any different? My point really is did you need a point in the movie to know where Snoke came from. Could it wait until EP9 with or without Snoke being alive?
     
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  7. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    I think it depends where someone is coming from in regards to their displeasure of how Snoke was handled. Some dislike that he died, but others is the backstory... in some cases it's both.

    I'm more bothered by the lack of backstory, not so much his death. What I don't like about his death is that it now seems unlikely we'll get any back story about him, and that is a loss to the trilogy and possibly the series. It's a missed opportunity to add some world building, add exposition to Ben and Luke and the OT3. Many aspects of Snoke could be handled adequately with a throw away line, but some aspects could have improved, imo, the ST a great deal.

    Obviously if you already love TLJ just as it is, it won't be an issue. But for those who have an issue with the lack of world building, Snoke would have been the perfect person to show us what happened from RotJ to TFA. His rise from obscurity would have been the perfect vessel to show how the FO grew, how Ben was seduced and manipulated, how Luke's relationship with Ben failed, how Leia and Han could not reach Ben, how the Republic was manipulated and fooled to their demise, how the Resistance saw through the FO, ect...

    If Snoke hadn't died, I'd be hopeful that story can still be told. Now that he's dead we're lead to believe his story didn't matter, he was just there to further Kylo's story (Admittedly this his head canon, but it's what we're constantly told when he's brought up). Okay, but that still leaves the world building as almost non existent without books, it leaves huge gaps in all the other areas I've mentioned.

    It could be addressed in EPIX, but is it likely now that he's dead? I think we'd have to admit it's far more likely to be ignored now that he's dead than if he were alive. LFL are more likely with Snoke dead to leave those stories to books or animation and choose to just plow forward with their story about Kylo and Rey, world building and exposition be damned.
     
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  8. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    Interesting question. Here’s another. Given where we currently are in the trilogy, what tangible benefit to the story is it that Snoke was a Force user? Honestly. What if the Supreme Leader of the First Order was a traditional military dictator? Like a more charismatic version of Tarkin or a tyrannical version of Mon Mothma? How much massively different would the story actually be?

    Ben Solo didn’t necessarily need a spooky goblin whispering in his ear for his insecurities and fears of abandonment and inadequacy to bait him to the darkside. He could have believably gotten there by himself. Rey and Kylo, after brain linking in TFA, didn’t necessarily need the pantsless wonder to bridge their minds. They could have believably gotten there by themselves.

    So, what irreconcilably integral part of this story so far absolutely necessitated that the version of Snoke we got be some shadowy, magical, mystery man?
     
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  9. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    product_image.jpg
     
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  10. Ridcully

    Ridcully Jedi General

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  11. Too Bob Bit

    Too Bob Bit Force Sensitive

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    It's a good idea. But perhaps something other than human? Not too alien though. I don't know... just give him blue skin or something, and have him be a high ranking admiral from the 'old' order of the Empire. Like maybe a 'grand' admiral even.
     
    #51 Too Bob Bit, Mar 21, 2019 at 9:27 AM
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2019 at 9:34 AM
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  12. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    Really what fear would Rey and Kylo have over just an Admiral. Sorry in the Star Wars universe a Jedi and a Sith (all but name only) would have no fear of an Admiral. To have it play out the way you suggest the Admiral would have to be surrounded by troops (not a handful of guards) for him/her to survive.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 21, 2019 at 2:57 PM, Original Post Date: Mar 21, 2019 at 2:52 PM ---
    So you are talking about the whole trilogy not TLJ. That is good, because TLJ had no responsibility to say hold up on the story lets go back in time and tell you how we got here. That is really what people are asking for. I for one believe that most of the world building had already been done through the PT, OT and other media. I do believe the ascendancy of Snoke will be an interesting story to read/watch some day, but never have felt the need of it before the story can continue. I also never felt that it had to be told in TLJ. I also feel if we get any of it in EP9 then it should come from Kylo point of view. Not from some monologue from Snoke. Kylo may do some soul searching and think back/flash back on his past. Dont see any reason why Snoke would have done it in TFA or TLJ. Never was going to have a scene where Snoke goes let me tell you about myself.
     
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  13. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    Kylo doesn’t follow Snoke and swear allegiance to his cause because he’s afraid of him. It’s because he respects him, “The Supreme Leader is wise”. It’s because this mentor figure provided a purpose and belonging to a disillusioned and angry youth at a time when he was desperate for both. Kylo isn’t concerned with getting zapped, but disappointing his surrogate father. The Force element makes that premise easier, but it isn’t necessary at all.

    As far as Rey, her personal conflict is presented as centric to her opposition to Kylo. Whether or not she’s physically threatened by his boss is totally irrelevant to that.
     
  14. Jedi MD

    Jedi MD Force Attuned

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    Snoke needed to be a force user because Kylo is a force user. Kylo would not be manipulated by a non force user. I don’t think he would blindly follow some non force FO leader. Kylo a powerful Force user overthrowing some regular Joe would have not had the same affect as overthrowing another powerful Force user.

    I have a question to throw out there. Especially for those who are upset with a lack of Snoke back story but everyone can feel free to chime in. If we get a few lines of exposition in IX describing where Snoke came from will you be satisfied? Or does it need to be in greater detail?
     
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  15. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    Look the OT didnt give us the backstory of the emperor. I know some will say, but, but this is different. It is a different era. 1. I dont buy that and 2. imagine how less satisfying it would have been for the emperor back story in OT was a couple of sentences of dialogue.

    Someone: Where did you come from?
    Emperor: Well I tricked people into making me Emperor,
    Someone: Ok thanks for the info.
     
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  16. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    Disagree. Palpatine (for example) didn’t worm his way into Anakin’s trust with space magic. He did it by being one of the only people that Anakin could be himself with. Emotional manipulation has a VERY powerful influence on the vulnerable…and actually exists.
    Kylo’s “power” isn’t what’s on display when betraying Snoke. He stabs the guy in the back (side (backside?:D)). The point in that scene isn’t who can beat up who. It’s that one character has outgrown the other. He’s killing his past in order to become what he was meant to be. Like with his real father, Han. Like with his teacher, Luke. Snoke is only another paternal figure there for him to remove so (he thinks) he can evolve. Again, you don't need the Force for that. It's relatable enough already .
     
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  17. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    While true he didn't directly use "the force", Palpatine used Anakin's belief in the force being all-powerful to undermine it. He used his own knowledge/power of the force to manipulate Anakin.
    If they did the same for Kylo Ren....it'd be an even bigger issue with the "re-hash" claims.
     
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  18. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    Palpiekens: And so, they've finally given you an assignment. Your patience has paid off.
    Anniepoo: Your guidance more than my patience.
    Palpomatic: You don't need guidance, Anakin. In time, you will learn to trust your feelings. Then you will be invincible. I have said it many times: "You are the most gifted Jedi I have ever met".
    Anakonda: Thank you, your Excellency.
    Palpfiction: I see you becoming the greatest of all the Jedi, Anakin. Even more powerful than Master Yoda.

    What Mr. Sidious is effectively doing here is romancing little orphan Annie. Wooing him. He’s diminishing the guardians, stoking pride, and positioning himself as a support system: classic predatory tactics. The Force isn’t in play here, just old fashioned, textbook exploitation.

    OBReal: Palpatine's a politician. I've observed that he is very clever at following the passions and prejudices of the Senators.

    Little Bennie Solo? He was thrown away by his parents and betrayed by his teacher. Wouldn’t take much for Snokie the Bear to sell himself as a ‘safe place’.
    “Rhyming”, @RoyleRancor. We’re supposed to call it “rhyming” ;)
     
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  19. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    I was referring more towards this:

     
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  20. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    Yes Palpatine seduces Anakin without directly using the Force. I am talking more about how Kylo and Rey respected/feared Snoke. Couple posts back was said that Kylo didnt use the Force to take out Snoke. Although I disagree with that. Lets imagine had Snoke just been some military leader.

    Snoke: Kylo it is time for you to stop being such a freaking looser and kill her.
    Kylo: You know I am sick of all your abuse you ftard. Kylo walks over and strikes Snoke down with light saber.

    Not nearly as interesting is it.
     
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