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This is why we can't have nice things

Discussion in 'Solo' started by BespinMinersUnion1138, Jun 27, 2017.

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  1. BespinMinersUnion1138

    BespinMinersUnion1138 Force Sensitive

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    http://io9.gizmodo.com/star-wars-is-all-the-same-nowadays-and-its-becoming-a-1796449283

    So, the above crap article on io9.gizmodo is part of this growing trend to blast on all the great things about the current Star Wars universe because Kathleen Kennedy and Lucasfilm dared to protect the integrity of their product.

    When the author says there is nothing in TFA that is original, she simply lost me because it inherently disregards the idea of story and glosses over all that WAS original about the film - when anyone talks in absolutes, they lose me.

    This type of thought process is why we can't have nice things. People were so excited for TFA and so excited for the the film to bring back our beloved characters and shows us familiar. When it did, it was fine for about a day and then the backlash hit. TPM came and people were so excited for the new movies back in 1999, but that lasted a day until people complained it didn't have enough of the familiar.

    Lord and Miller were fired because they didn't respect the script and didn't understand the tone of the Star Wars universe not because Lucasfilm and Disney didn't want a different style of Star Wars film. Tone and Style are not the same thing. Han Solo is not an "improvisational" style character like in a Judd Apatow film. Harrison Ford famously improvised a line and now the narrative becomes that improv is some tradition in Star Wars.

    The author brings up "Guardians of the Galaxy" and "Winter Soldier" as examples of Marvel taking chances. Yet the author clearly doesn't get that the tone of both films absolutely fit that universe - but the styles were very different.

    Rogue One by all accounts strayed too far from the "tone" of Star Wars, meaning that it would have been very hard for the audience to buy that it belonged in the same universe. So reshoots and redirection turned into more of grittier heist film than the Blackhawk Down that Edwards initially was going for - and it worked. We get a film that is true to the tone of the Star Wars universe, but is in a different style of film.

    The Han Solo film and future standalone films obviously will stray in style, but, the tone will fit. Remember, the audience must believe that the Han Solo they see can turn into the Han Solo they know. Now, obviously this does take into account the fact that making a Han Solo film does sound like a "small" universe choice. But, its a movie that keeps the character alive for a little while longer, after audiences just lost the older version. I don't know what is different about wanting an Obi-Wan film badly and wanting a Han Solo film. Both are established characters and present the problem of a "small" universe.

    But, here again, I think the author is nitpicking and making up a problem that doesn't exist. This is only the fourth film of the new Star Wars era in production - fourth. There will be more standalone films. There will be a tv series. I think taking the time to do a movie about one of the beloved characters is absolutely fine. It's not like Star Wars is going anywhere. Where was the outrage when Marvel was making a third Iron Man film, which on face seemed banal? It never existed because Marvel had a plan.

    Well guess what Star Wars has a plan. But, because Kathleen Kennedy decided to protect the Lucasfilm product by firing the directors of the Lego movie, she doesn't get a pass. She gets questioned and the narrative becomes that Star Wars has a problem. Kennedy produced some of the most beloved films that influenced pop-culture. The speed at which this is forgotten and the lack of even bring it up shows the dishonesty of the arguments against her. Where is the outrage at Larry Kasdan? He brought in Lord and Miller and he obviously couldn't deal with them improvising his script. I keep waiting for that article. I'm pretty sure I'll continue waiting.

    Finally, I've read authors discussing that Star Wars needs a Kevin Feige. Spoiler alert. That's Kathleen Kennedy plus the Story Group. Once again, somehow this is conveniently forgotten.

    In conclusion: Kennedy decided to protect Star Wars. She had reason. She had evidence to suggest the movie was in danger of not having the right tone. She's far smarter than you, I or any of these film blog authors. Be happy she's in charge and making these decisions. She's earned the right to make them based on her resume and expertise.
     
    #1 BespinMinersUnion1138, Jun 27, 2017
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  2. semiote

    semiote Rebel General

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    Amen! I was so annoyed when I read that article. Trendacosta forgets that Winter Soldier and Guardians of the Galaxy were many more movies into the MCU franchise than R1 and TFA. And, this is based on conjecture and sheer ignorance: she isn't giving any credence to the reports coming out about how the conflict between L&M and LFL developed. Instead, she just pretends to know that LFL is stamping out creativity and authorial uniqueness. And yet, we haven't heard *any* such complaints about RJ's production of TLJ, have we?

    Couldn't it be that L&M just didn't know how to handle such a big production, or to cope with the pressures of a shared universe that has a certain tone? With the Jump Street films and The Lego Movie, L&M had more of a free hand. Jump Street was a defunct TV series: no one cared about fidelity to its past. And The Lego Movie was by its nature a zany send-up of all kinds of pop culture, and because of this, L&M were *expected* to go in all kinds of off-the-wall directions.

    For my part, I remain pretty neutral on the issue of what went wrong behind the scenes. It's hard to trust that the random leaks that have been coming out give us a completely accurate picture of what went on. Maybe it was all KK's or Kasdan's fault, or maybe it was all L&M's fault. I'm guessing it was a combination of both, but I just don't know. Trendacosta pretends like she's in a position to make a final judgment, when in fact she's just like a lot of other media opinionators: parasites whose job it is to BS about stuff even if they don't really have the knowledge and understanding to back it up.
     
    #2 semiote, Jun 28, 2017
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  3. Pawek_13

    Pawek_13 Jedi General

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    She also compains that the present canon lacks variety but when Lucasfilm tries to do something out of the box, like making the last fight of Maul really short or making a gothic horror in form of Screaming Citadel, people complain that they stray too much from the essence of SW or something similar.
     
    #3 Pawek_13, Jun 28, 2017
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  4. BespinMinersUnion1138

    BespinMinersUnion1138 Force Sensitive

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    Based on her past articles, Trendacosta is decidedly pro-EU. In her mind she'd rather SW make huge ridiculous choices like some of the EU books and have them fizzle than carefully craft a universe.
     
    #4 BespinMinersUnion1138, Jun 28, 2017
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  5. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    The author clearly was an EU fan and when it got regulated to Legends (which can be made canon again over time) they decided that was it for them and Star Wars. How do you expect new stories to be told with 30 years of canon to navigate? Something had to give.
    Marvel succeeds because they base things off comics but don't adhere 100%. It gives the story a chance to be something new. Civil War uses the basic premise of the comic arc but that's about it. Made it feel newer.

    Star Wars is Star Wars. Marvel needed to take risks. It wasn't as established. Winter Soldier and Guardians were both supposed to be Marvel's first big failures. And if L&M were trying to make Han Solo into a L&M film and not a Star Wars film, they completely misunderstood what the Russos and Gunn did.

    The Russos came from comedy and made an epic political/espionage thriller movie that fit the tone of the MCU. James Gunn made a space opera that fit the tone of the MCU. And in their subsequent films, they were allowed to do more unique and individual things. Civil War has much more of the Russo humor in it and GOTG Vol 2 is 100% pure James Gunn exploding on the screen at every turn instead of intermixed with basic MCU plot.

    If Lord and Miller had been willing to work with Lucasfilm, who knows. Maybe they'd make a great film and get another crack at it to a more Lord and Miller style film down the line....like a spin off Lando story.
     
    #5 RoyleRancor, Jun 28, 2017
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  6. Rieekan

    Rieekan SWNN Hawkeye
    Staff Member

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    Haha, killing Han Solo and the entire film cast of R1 is the pinacle of risk averse.

    Wrong, they were incredibly simple and well written, that usually exites the audience. What she doesn't get is the approach of Marvel and LFL are different.
    R1 works alone, so did ANH, ESB wouldn't. The Stand alones are not meant to be intertwined, MCU has a game plan till infinity War and beyond. They have to fit and set up next stages and it doesn'T work that well over time, like Ultron showed.

    THe EU lacked creativity big time, always around big3, make an equivalent of pop cultural phenomenons and shove it into the universe Borg/Vong or KIlik/starshiptrooper bugs. If nothing helps, clone somebody and Luke is pretty much unbeaten.
    TFA didn't go down the Jacen/Jaina path and it was good, because no one ever explained why I'm supposed to liuke those characters for another reason, then their family name. They went out to new territory, characters that don't rely on their name, and they were successful, remeber how TLJ had to be re written because LFL wanted to show more of the new characters.
     
    #6 Rieekan, Jun 28, 2017
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  7. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    YES! Thank you!
     
    #7 RoyleRancor, Jun 28, 2017
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  8. NotQyteNeo

    NotQyteNeo Force Sensitive

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    I would not put too much energy or thought into that blog article. I'd bet this thread gets more page hits than the article would have gotten without the redirected traffic it will get from the original post.
     
    #8 NotQyteNeo, Jun 28, 2017
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  9. Bandini

    Bandini Jedi Commander

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    Why do you get a trolling rating for this ???
     
    #9 Bandini, Jun 28, 2017
  10. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Because there's a group of posters here who hate the "new" Star Wars which @BespinMinersUnion1138 correctly defended here and there's also a group who hates Kathleen Kennedy and talking about her in a positive light in regards to Star Wars is also a no-no to them and thus seen as trolling.

    Basically: defending "new" Star Wars or Kathleen Kennedy = trolling.
     
    #10 RoyleRancor, Jun 28, 2017
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  11. Bandini

    Bandini Jedi Commander

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    How useless it is to be that emotionnal for a movie ...

    Some people really need to chill out.
     
    #11 Bandini, Jun 28, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
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  12. BespinMinersUnion1138

    BespinMinersUnion1138 Force Sensitive

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    I don't know and I seriously don't give a F$&#
     
    #12 BespinMinersUnion1138, Jun 28, 2017
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  13. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    It's just a bunch of bandwagon hate.

    Star Wars is killing it lately, so at the first sign of weakness the vultures will strike. Too bad the semi-truck that is The Last Jedi is barreling down the road that these vultures just landed on.
     
    #13 cawatrooper, Jun 28, 2017
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  14. Ruralfarmboy

    Ruralfarmboy Jedi General

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    Some just AREN'T happy with just agreeing to disagree.

    Silliness.
     
    #14 Ruralfarmboy, Jun 29, 2017
  15. Darth Brooks

    Darth Brooks Rebel General

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    Personally, I'm more interested in Han Solo now that it's being directed by an academy award winning director instead of the guys who made the Lego movie. From the start that seemed like an insane choice...Glad KK realized things were going in the wrong direction and took action. Who knows if Ron Howard can right the ship or not but if the rumors about Han Solo coming off like Ace Ventura are remotely true, then firing them was the only appropriate response.
     
    #15 Darth Brooks, Jul 2, 2017
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  16. Burter

    Burter Clone Commander

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    You know what's the problem here BespinMinersUnion1138? That it's all fun and games when we like things but suddenly it's ''crap'' when we don't agree with others that like what we don't like. When so many people bashed the PT, those of us that did love it had to tolerate all the haters and swallow our pride on the constant trolling and bashing. No matter how many awesome new and original things the PT gave us, haters just went on and on nitpicking every single thing they could about the PT. Then came TFA and like it or not, it was indeed an unoriginal movie that offered nothing new and was just filled with nostalgia feed. Many fans were enraged yet now, those of you who did enjoy the movie don't want to deal with the same things most of you guys did to PT fans.

    I have seen people that point out things they didn't like about the movie, things that JJ Abrams himself has admited and TFA fans throw a tantrum and are outraged to hear such things. When TPM came out, fans constantly bashed the movie about the huge amounts of CGI that the movie had yet now that TFA came out and JJ himself said that TFA had more CGI than TPM did, TFA fans get angry about this and want these people to just shut up and enjoy the movie claiming that they are nitpicking. It's even more incredible to think that now here in the Cantina, some hardcore TFA fans have even stepped passed the PT and are now bashing the OT to try to defend the movie they like.

    We had to learn to live with the PT hate but now the new fans can't deal with the pressure they dished out and they are desperately trying to bash everything that came before just to justify a new SW galaxy that many people (myself included) feel that pales in comparison to the one established by Lucas. You love TFA? That's awesome and I respect your opinion and there is no way in the universe that I can force you to think otherwise but you too should learn to accept that they is a big fanbase that simply doesn't enjoy the new Disney SW universe and would rather have the old one.
     
    #16 Burter, Jul 29, 2017
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  17. Amanaman

    Amanaman Rebel Official

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    Totally agree with you Burter as I have said this time and time again. PT haters made it a living hell for us fans yet now that they fell in love with TFA they don't want to hear a single negative thing about it and do their best to try to shut anyone who thinks TFA was bad. As the saying goes Don't Throw Stones To Others If Your House Is Made Of Glass.
     
    #17 Amanaman, Jul 29, 2017
  18. BespinMinersUnion1138

    BespinMinersUnion1138 Force Sensitive

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    I take issue with the idea that NOTHING was original in TFA just as I take offense with anyone who bashes the excessive use of CGI in the PT.

    The article was "crap" because the author is someone who prefers the old EU and is pissed off at the new canon. The author uses her opinion to state absolutes, which shows as disingenuous an argument as posters who bashed the PT. I'm sorry you got trolled and had to "learn to live" with the PT hate and I would never in a million years try to force someone to think anything.

    I will NOT, however, accept disingenuous arguments based on underlying anger towards decisions made by Lucasfilm as to the future of the franchise. Lucasfilm and KK are protecting their product and doing everything they can to ensure its future. Lucas himself protected his product by taking control of it after the OT, and, following his own directorial and story vision. He then continued by making Clone Wars and passed the reigns onto Dave Filoni.

    The fact that the author used examples from Marvel that do not prove her point, because the two franchises aren't comparable. She also fails to mention that Marvel in fact will not take all the risks. It dropped the Inhumans movie. It refused to kill off Captain America in Civil War. It refused for ages to make a movie solely based on a female superhero (until Captain Marvel).

    Based on your post you seem to think I'm a PT hater? I'm not. I love Star Wars. In all its forms. I prefer certain movies over others. I prefer certain books over others. But in the end, I love Star Wars. Why? Because I'm a story guy and theme guy. I connect on an emotional level with the major themes of Harmony, Redemption, Good/Evil and Subjugation/Rebellion that weave in and out of the every ounce of the franchise. I look at the story to ensure it makes sense. Therefore, when I see someone make an argument that does not come from an honest position, I'm going to call them out.
     
    #18 BespinMinersUnion1138, Jul 29, 2017
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  19. Burter

    Burter Clone Commander

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    I respect all your words good sir yet the only thing I kind of disagree with is the final sentence about ''an honest position''. That is the OPs point of view and just because I don't agree with him/her that doesn't mean said person doesn't have an honest position. That's just your point of view on what she is saying. I find the SW Holiday Special to be an abomination that should never have been made. Suppose a fan writes a blog saying that to that person, the Holiday Special was even better than TESB which would be blasphemy in the eyes of many SW fans, do I truly have the right to say that just because I disagree with said fan he/she lacks an honest position? No I don't because one mans garbage is another mans treasure and we are all honest about it even if others disagree.

    Where you see a person that lacks an honest position I see someone that is indeed honest about her views and while I won't say that I agree with 100% of everything she says, I do agree with most of it as I feel the same way as she does. So does that mean I too lack an honest position if I say I feel as she does?
     
    #19 Burter, Jul 29, 2017
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  20. Amanaman

    Amanaman Rebel Official

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    I feel the same way. I too read the post and I agree with much of what she says. I have been bashed for saying many of the very same things she said and yet I don't think that just because I refuse to go with the flow and have my own opinion that means I don't have an honest position.
     
    #20 Amanaman, Jul 29, 2017
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